<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2007 Figure"M" question -- nowjudgeing the M</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<FONT FACE="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'>He prefers electric sharpeners now...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On 10/17/06 10:09 PM, "Dean Pappas" <d.pappas@kodeos.com> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'>Well I for one know that it would be a beautifully sharpened pencil: the job done with a sharpener of his own design.<BR>
Dean<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'> <BR>
-----Original Message----- <BR>
<B>From:</B> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org on behalf of Verne Koester <BR>
<B>Sent:</B> Tue 10/17/2006 9:32 PM <BR>
<B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List <BR>
<B>Cc:</B> <BR>
<B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2007 Figure"M" question -- nowjudgeing the M<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
No, the pen would've flown into me.....<BR>
<BR>
Verne<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: "Archie Stafford" <rcpattern@stx.rr.com><BR>
To: "'NSRCA Mailing List'" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 5:20 PM<BR>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2007 Figure "M" question -- <BR>
nowjudgeing the M<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>I can't help but wonder if Verne had the pencil if it would've already<BR>
>flown<BR>
> into a pen by now?<BR>
><BR>
> -----Original Message-----<BR>
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org<BR>
> [<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]</a> On Behalf Of Verne<BR>
> Koester<BR>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 4:15 PM<BR>
> To: NSRCA Mailing List<BR>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2007 Figure "M" question --<BR>
> nowjudgeing the M<BR>
><BR>
> I can't help but wonder if Kane broke the damned pencil yet.....<BR>
><BR>
> Verne<BR>
><BR>
> ----- Original Message -----<BR>
> From: "Glen Watson" <gwatson11@houston.rr.com><BR>
> To: "'NSRCA Mailing List'" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 4:35 PM<BR>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2007 Figure "M" question --<BR>
> nowjudgeing the M<BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>> Mark,<BR>
>><BR>
>> The majority of the names I recognize responding to this thread are<BR>
>> Masters<BR>
>> pilots. Great discussion by the way. However I am hopeful the<BR>
>> individuals<BR>
>> from other classes who judge Masters get this information as well.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Continued awareness and education is what I am after. I take personal<BR>
>> pride<BR>
>> in understanding the appropriate criteria and application there of when<BR>
>> it's<BR>
>> my turn to judge no matter who the pilot is or the class flown.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Glen<BR>
>><BR>
>><BR>
>> -----Original Message-----<BR>
>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org<BR>
>> [<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]</a> On Behalf Of Atwood,<BR>
>> Mark<BR>
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 2:53 PM<BR>
>> To: NSRCA Mailing List<BR>
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2007 Figure "M" question --<BR>
>> nowjudgeing the M<BR>
>><BR>
>> Hey Glen,<BR>
>><BR>
>> On this maneuver, I have a hard time believing that anyone would<BR>
>> downgrade a good M based on which side of the canopy they see. Of<BR>
>> course...I've never really understood the "show the canopy first" idea<BR>
>> to begin with, but especially here, there are SOOOOOO many things to go<BR>
>> wrong, that a good M is a good M...period. Draw the lines, wind<BR>
>> correct, hit the radius...and BHAM!! Good maneuver. There's so much to<BR>
>> screw up that showing the wrong side is irrelevant.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Now...like I said...stalling the opposite way...short of a dead<BR>
>> calm...is more likely to get you a downgrade. Be it right or wrong...<BR>
>><BR>
>> -----Original Message-----<BR>
>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org<BR>
>> [<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]</a> On Behalf Of Glen<BR>
>> Watson<BR>
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 3:38 PM<BR>
>> To: 'NSRCA Mailing List'<BR>
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2007 Figure "M" question --<BR>
>> nowjudgeing the M<BR>
>><BR>
>> Understood subjectivity will always be part pattern...<BR>
>><BR>
>> Let's see a show of hands of those who would apply a downgrade to an M<BR>
>> flown<BR>
>> technically correct according to the AMA judging criteria although the<BR>
>> belly<BR>
>> was seen during 1 or both of the stall turns.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Glen<BR>
>><BR>
>> -----Original Message-----<BR>
>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org<BR>
>> [<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]</a> On Behalf Of Mark<BR>
>> Atwood<BR>
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 2:19 PM<BR>
>> To: NSRCA Mailing List<BR>
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2007 Figure "M" question<BR>
>><BR>
>> I would disagree...it IS defined. Figure M with 3/4 rolls. Roll<BR>
>> direction<BR>
>> is optional, stall direction is optional. That's always been the case<BR>
>> unless it's specified otherwise. There's no "implied" roll direction,<BR>
>> just<BR>
>> one that some think looks better. That will always be the case.<BR>
>><BR>
>> Some people do their four points in different directions so as to show<BR>
>> the<BR>
>> canopy first, or last, which ever they feel presents better...Not sure I<BR>
>> personally care, but for those that do...go for it. I know I'll catch<BR>
>> flack for say this, but this IS a subjective sport. Presentation DOES<BR>
>> matter... Always will. It's shouldn't outweigh the objective criteria,<BR>
>> but<BR>
>> it's not worthless either.<BR>
>><BR>
>><BR>
>> On 10/17/06 3:11 PM, "jivey61@bellsouth.net" <jivey61@bellsouth.net><BR>
>> wrote:<BR>
>><BR>
>>> G<BR>
>>> Yes you agree ..but you also see we have to define it now or everybody<BR>
>> will<BR>
>>> be flying and judging it differently. What a mess that will be.<BR>
>>><BR>
>>> Jim Ivey<BR>
>>> ----- Original Message -----<BR>
>>> From: "george w. kennie" <geobet@gis.net><BR>
>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 1:50 PM<BR>
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2007 Figure "M" question<BR>
>>><BR>
>>><BR>
>>>><BR>
>>>> Jim,<BR>
>>>> It certainly will work this way, but your original method will<BR>
>> present<BR>
>>>> better. With the roll direction being pilots option your original<BR>
>>>> ll/rr-rr/ll is a much prettier maneuver. There's something to be said<BR>
>> for<BR>
>>>> presenting the canopy to the judges on rolling maneuvers. I apply<BR>
>> this<BR>
>>>> technique on all maneuvers with rolling elements unless the specified<BR>
>>>> requirement forces otherwise, like reverse K.E.'s. IMHO, you had it<BR>
>> right<BR>
>>>> the first time!<BR>
>>>> G.<BR>
>>>><BR>
>>>><BR>
>>>><BR>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----<BR>
>>>> From: <jivey61@bellsouth.net><BR>
>>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 1:17 PM<BR>
>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2007 Figure "M" question<BR>
>>>><BR>
>>>><BR>
>>>>> Bob<BR>
>>>>> If I read the Aresti correct the rolls on both vertical lines are<BR>
>> the<BR>
>>> same<BR>
>>>>> direction.This makes it lt-lt and lt-lt coming from the left and<BR>
>> rt-rt<BR>
>>> and<BR>
>>>>> rt-rt coming from the right.Like Jerry said look at top of plane<BR>
>> one<BR>
>>> time<BR>
>>>>> and bottom of the plane next time.<BR>
>>>>><BR>
>>>>> Jim Ivey<BR>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----<BR>
>>>>> From: "Bob Kane" <getterflash@yahoo.com><BR>
>>>>> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 1:01 PM<BR>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2007 Figure "M" question<BR>
>>>>><BR>
>>>>><BR>
>>>>>> Wow, this is more complicated than I anticipated. Do you have to<BR>
>> roll<BR>
>>> the<BR>
>>>>> same way for each stall turn? Or can you reverse directions to show<BR>
>> the<BR>
>>>>> canopy during each stall?<BR>
>>>>>><BR>
>>>>>> For example, flying left to right as shown on the aresti, pull 1/4<BR>
>>> loop,<BR>
>>>>> short line, roll 3/4 left (canopy toward flightline), short line,<BR>
>> stall<BR>
>>>>> toward the right, short line, roll 3/4 left, short line, push 1/2<BR>
>>> outside<BR>
>>>>> loop, short line, roll 3/4 right (canopy faces flight line), short<BR>
>> line,<BR>
>>>>> stall towerd the right, short line, 3/4 roll right, short line, pull<BR>
>> 1/4<BR>
>>>>> loop.<BR>
>>>>>><BR>
>>>>>> Bob Kane<BR>
>>>>>> getterflash@yahoo.com<BR>
>>>>>><BR>
>>>>>><BR>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----<BR>
>>>>>> From: "jivey61@bellsouth.net" <jivey61@bellsouth.net><BR>
>>>>>> To: NSRCA Mailing List <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 12:45:56 PM<BR>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2007 Figure "M" question<BR>
>>>>>><BR>
>>>>>><BR>
>>>>>> Jerry<BR>
>>>>>> I looked again at the aresti and I think you are right.The aresti<BR>
>> shows<BR>
>>>>>> both upline rolls in the same direction.That would let you see the<BR>
>> top<BR>
>>>>>> one<BR>
>>>>>> time and bottom the other time.<BR>
>>>>>> My mistake Bob so much for crutches.<BR>
>>>>>><BR>
>>>>>><BR>
>>>>>><BR>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________<BR>
>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>
>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>
>>>>>> <a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><BR>
>>>>><BR>
>>>>> _______________________________________________<BR>
>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>
>>>>> NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>
>>>>> <a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><BR>
>>>>><BR>
>>>><BR>
>>>> _______________________________________________<BR>
>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>
>>>> NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>
>>>> <a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><BR>
>>><BR>
>>> _______________________________________________<BR>
>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>
>>> NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>
>>> <a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><BR>
>><BR>
>> _______________________________________________<BR>
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>
>> NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>
>> <a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><BR>
>><BR>
>> _______________________________________________<BR>
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>
>> NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>
>> <a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><BR>
>><BR>
>> _______________________________________________<BR>
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>
>> NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>
>> <a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><BR>
>><BR>
>> _______________________________________________<BR>
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>
>> NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>
>> <a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><BR>
>><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
> _______________________________________________<BR>
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>
> NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>
> <a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><BR>
><BR>
> _______________________________________________<BR>
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>
> NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>
> <a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><BR>
><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
_______________________________________________<BR>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>
<a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><BR>
</SPAN></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'><BR>
</SPAN></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE="Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'><BR>
</SPAN></FONT>
</BODY>
</HTML>