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<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2>For the record I agree with Glen and Don that
the 'M' "should" be flown with both stall turns being the same height (that's
why this caught my attention). </FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial><FONT
size=2></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2>When writing my question I initially used the
word "ambiguous", then after thinking about it I realized that the way the rule
is worded it isn't ambiguous, which to me is a problem. The rule states clearly,
<SPAN lang=en-us><FONT size=2>"The length of the vertical segments is not a
judging criteria." If this sentence was left out then we'd have no argument and
the general rules would apply, as Glen pointed out. If this text had said, "the
height of the maneuver is not a judging criteria" then there'd be no argument.
However, the description explicitly says that t<SPAN lang=en-us><FONT size=2>he
length of the vertical segments is not a judging criteria, why state this if
they should be the same? </FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT size=2><SPAN
lang=en-us></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT face=Arial><FONT
size=2><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT size=2><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT
size=2></FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT size=2><SPAN
lang=en-us>Again, I'm not arguing that the 'M' should be flown this way, but
there's no getting around the fact that it is explicitly stated to the contrary.
Shouldn't we consider addressing this in the rules rather than stick our heads
in the sand?</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT size=2><SPAN
lang=en-us></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT size=2><SPAN
lang=en-us>It's funny how some people so quickly lost patience with me
asking this question when the same people in prior discussions have said we
shouldn't make up our own rules but should reference the rule book, basically go
by the letter of the law. </SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT size=2><SPAN
lang=en-us></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT size=2><SPAN
lang=en-us>Canopy facing or away... this is clearly objective and silly,
but trying to understand exactly what the text says and if it should be
changed, I think this is reasonable. </SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT size=2><SPAN
lang=en-us></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT size=2><SPAN
lang=en-us>If you don't have patients to work through this and figure things out
logically then you probably should just delete the message and keep the rude
comments to yourselves. </SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT size=2><SPAN
lang=en-us></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT size=2><SPAN
lang=en-us>Keith Black</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=don.ramsey@cox.net href="mailto:don.ramsey@cox.net">Don Ramsey</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, October 18, 2006 11:12
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters
2007 Figure "M" question-verticalsegments</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>I agree with Glen, the general rules must be followed as
well as the specific. Each maneuver should not require each small detail
be described. Most are already over-defined causing many to not read the
regs. Done properly, the general section should be large and the detail
small. All centered maneuvers are generally symetrical around
center. A top hat at center should have all line
lengths equal. A turnaround top hat may have all line lengths
different for positioning and altitude adjustment. Same for stall turns
at center and turnaround stall turns. All the statement "The length of
the <SPAN lang=en-us>vertical segments is not a judging criteria" means is the
performance of the model in vertical is not a grading criteria.
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><SPAN lang=en-us></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><SPAN lang=en-us>In general, centered maneuvers that appear
to be symetrical should be symetrical. Centered maneuvers that appear to
begin and end at the same altitude should, in fact, begin and end at the same
altitude. The figure "M" is a symetrical maneuver around center with
first roll directional optional, stall turn direction optional, inverted
through the bottom half loop, roll direction optional on the second vertical,
vertical line lenght the same as the first vertical, stall turn direction
optional, upright exit with overall height of the maneuver optional and all
radii the same. Much of this is stated in the maneuver description but
what is not specificed is: radii must be the same, rolls must be in the center
of the lines, the stall turn has a maximum pivot radius of 1/2 wingspan, the
roll rates are the same, etc... That's the general section and it
applies.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><SPAN lang=en-us></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><SPAN lang=en-us>Don</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=gwatson11@houston.rr.com
href="mailto:gwatson11@houston.rr.com">Glen Watson</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'NSRCA Mailing List'</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, October 18, 2006 10:14
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters
2007 Figure "M" question -verticalsegments</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><!-- Converted from text/rtf format -->
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New"
size=2>Keith,</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>Here is an
interesting</FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us> <FONT face="Courier New"
size=2>passage</FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New"
size=2></FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us> <FONT face="Courier New" size=2>from
the</FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us> <FONT face="Courier New"
size=2>rule</FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>
book page 77</FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New"
size=2></FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us> <FONT face="Courier New"
size=2>regarding lines within a maneuver.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN
lang=en-us></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New"
size=2>"</FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>All
lines within a maneuver have a beginning</FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT
face="Courier New" size=2></FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us> <FONT
face="Courier New" size=2>and end which define their</FONT></SPAN><SPAN
lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2></FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us>
<FONT face="Courier New" size=2>length.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us><B><U>
<FONT face="Courier New" size=2>The length of a</FONT></U></B></SPAN><SPAN
lang=en-us><B><U><FONT face="Courier New" size=2></FONT></U></B></SPAN><SPAN
lang=en-us><B><U> <FONT face="Courier New" size=2>line should only be graded
when a maneuver contains</FONT></U></B></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us><B><U><FONT
face="Courier New" size=2></FONT></U></B></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us><B><U>
<FONT face="Courier New" size=2>several lines with a given
relationship</FONT></U></B></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New"
size=2>, as in a</FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New"
size=2></FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us> <FONT face="Courier New"
size=2>square loop. Unequal or</FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT
face="Courier New" size=2></FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us> <FONT
face="Courier New" size=2>misrelated lines should be</FONT></SPAN><SPAN
lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2></FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us>
<FONT face="Courier New" size=2>downgraded according to the severity of
the</FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New"
size=2></FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us> <FONT face="Courier New"
size=2>defect.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New"
size=2></FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us> <FONT face="Courier New" size=2>One
(1) point is subtracted for a reasonable difference.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN
lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2></FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us>
<FONT face="Courier New" size=2>More points are subtracted for greater
differences.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New"
size=2>"</FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>My
take</FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us> <FONT face="Courier New"
size=2>away</FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us> <FONT face="Courier New"
size=2>is the</FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us> <FONT face="Courier New"
size=2>maneuver</FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New"
size=2></FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us> <FONT face="Courier New"
size=2>description implies the vertical line length is</FONT></SPAN><SPAN
lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2></FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us>
<FONT face="Courier New" size=2>not a judge-able item</FONT></SPAN><SPAN
lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2></FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us>
<FONT face="Courier New" size=2>however</FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT
face="Courier New" size=2></FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us> <FONT
face="Courier New" size=2>since there are two</FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us>
<FONT face="Courier New" size=2>vertical</FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT
face="Courier New" size=2> lines</FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us> <FONT
face="Courier New" size=2>their</FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us> <FONT
face="Courier New" size=2>length</FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT
face="Courier New" size=2></FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us> <FONT
face="Courier New" size=2>must</FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us> <FONT
face="Courier New" size=2>be of the same reasonable</FONT></SPAN><SPAN
lang=en-us> <FONT face="Courier New" size=2>length</FONT></SPAN><SPAN
lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN
lang=en-us></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>I for one am
beginning to understand the import</FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT
face="Courier New" size=2>ance of understanding</FONT></SPAN><SPAN
lang=en-us> <FONT face="Courier New" size=2>not just the individual maneuver
description but also the</FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us> <FONT
face="Courier New" size=2>general</FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT
face="Courier New" size=2></FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us> <FONT
face="Courier New" size=2>descriptions and definition</FONT></SPAN><SPAN
lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>s the rule book provides
like</FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us> <FONT face="Courier New"
size=2>the</FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us> <FONT face="Courier New"
size=2>above example.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New"
size=2>Glen</FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>-----Original
Message-----</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>From:
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]
On Behalf Of Keith Black</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>Sent: Wednesday,
October 18, 2006 12:13 AM</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>To: NSRCA
Mailing List</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2007 Figure "M" question -
verticalsegments</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>Now that we're
breaking this down, I'd like some clarification on the</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>section of the
rule below that states:</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>"The length of
the vertical segments is not a judging criteria."</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>In the strictest
translation of this sentence I would say that this means</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>that the two
stall turns do not need to be the same height, however,
this</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>seems
inconsistent will all other centered maneuvers where two halves of
an</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>object do have
to match in size.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>A looser
translation could be that the intention of this verbiage is
to</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>point out that a
shorter 'M' should score as well as a taller 'M', but</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>assumes that
both sides should be the same height (which isn't stated</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New"
size=2>anywhere).</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>Unless otherwise
clarified, I'd have to deduce that indeed the two stall</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>turns don't have
to be the same height.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>Keith
Black</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>----- Original
Message ----- </FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>From: "Glen
Watson" <gwatson11@houston.rr.com></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>To: "'NSRCA
Mailing List'" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>Sent: Tuesday,
October 17, 2006 12:10 PM</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2007 Figure "M" question</FONT></SPAN></P><BR>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>Below is the
Figure M description from page 79-80 of the current AMA
rule</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>book...Note the
statement regarding rolls and stall turn direction are</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>pilot's
option...I then found this statement "Edit page 79-80 Figure M
with</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>¼ or ½ rolls" to
include ¾ roll options" on the NSRCA page under:</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><A
href="http://nsrca.org/competition/judging/Patterns2007">http://nsrca.org/competition/judging/Patterns2007</A></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>Figure M with
1/4 or 1/2 Rolls: Model pulls up into one-quarter (1/4)
loop</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>to a vertical
track, hesitates then performs prescribed roll, hesitates
then</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>executes a stall
turn through 180 degrees, hesitates, performs</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>prescribed roll,
hesitates then executes one-half (1/2) outside loop to</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>vertical track,
hesitates, performs prescribed roll, hesitates, executes a</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>stall turn
through 180 degrees, hesitates, performs prescribed roll,</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>hesitates then
recovers with another one-quarter (1/4) loop to level
flight.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>Direction of
rolls and stall turns are pilot's option. The length of
the</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>vertical
segments is not a judging criteria.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New"
size=2>Downgrades:</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>1. Model not
vertical at start and finish of rolls</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>and stall
turns.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>2. Stall turns
not exactly 180 degrees.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>3. Model does
not execute prescribed rolls.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>4. Rolls not
centered in vertical lines.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>5. Bottom of
outside half loop not at same altitude</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>as entry and
exit.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New"
size=2>Regards,</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New"
size=2>Glen</FONT></SPAN></P><BR><BR>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>-----Original
Message-----</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>From:
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>[<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]
On Behalf Of Jerry Budd</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>Sent: Tuesday,
October 17, 2006 11:20 AM</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>To: NSRCA
Mailing List</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2007 Figure "M" question</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>Hi
Jim,</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>Unless the
maneuver has changed from 15 years ago all the rolls have</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>to be in the
same direction, resulting in one stall turn being</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>canopy-facing
you and the other being belly-facing you (your choice</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>as to which
comes first). It's a tough maneuver, especially when
the</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>wind is blowing
other than down the runway.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New"
size=2>Jerry</FONT></SPAN></P><BR>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New"
size=2>>Bob</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>> My
memory crutch is,when flying from left to right, the 1st 2
roll</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>>directions
are left-left and 2nd 2 roll directions are right-right.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>>When flying
from the right to left,the 1st 2 roll directions are</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New"
size=2>right-right</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>>and 2nd 2
roll directions are left-left.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>>Like Arch
said the center half loop is inverted in both cases.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>>Lotsa a
upside down.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New"
size=2>></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>>Jim
Ivey</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New"
size=2>></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>>-----
Original Message -----</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>>From:
"Archie Stafford" <rcpattern@stx.rr.com></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>>To: "'NSRCA
Mailing List'" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>>Sent:
Tuesday, October 17, 2006 11:11 AM</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>>Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2007 Figure "M" question</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New"
size=2>></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New"
size=2>></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>>>
Bob,</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New"
size=2>>></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>>>
It has to be inverted. The direction of roll must be the same on
every</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New"
size=2>>3/4</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>>>
roll therefore you end up inverted across the middle.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New"
size=2>>></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>>>
Arch</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New"
size=2>>></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>>>
-----Original Message-----</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>>>
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>>>
[<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]
On Behalf Of Bob Kane</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>>>
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 9:53 AM</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>>>
To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>>>
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Masters 2007 Figure "M"
question</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New"
size=2>>></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>>>
OK, I'm finally try to fly this thing with a pencil . . . . .
. one</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>>>
question I have (so far) is the 1/2 loop between the two stall turns
in</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New"
size=2>>the</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>>>
figure M: Does it matter if it is an inside or outside half loop?
The</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>>>
aresti diagram posted on Flying Giants shows it as an outside half
loop</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New"
size=2>>with</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>>>
no option. Thanks.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New"
size=2>>></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>>>
Bob Kane</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>>>
getterflash@yahoo.com</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New"
size=2>>></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New"
size=2>>></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New"
size=2>>></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>>>
_______________________________________________</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>>>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>>>
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>>>
<A
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New"
size=2>>></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>>>
_______________________________________________</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>>>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>>>
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>>>
<A
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New"
size=2>></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New"
size=2>>_______________________________________________</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New"
size=2>>NSRCA-discussion mailing list</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New"
size=2>>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>><A
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A></FONT></SPAN></P><BR>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>--
</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New"
size=2>___________</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>Jerry
Budd</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>Budd
Engineering</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>(661) 722-5669
Voice/Fax</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>(661) 435-0358
Cell Phone</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><A
href="mailto:jerry@buddengineering.com">mailto:jerry@buddengineering.com</A></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><A
href="http://www.buddengineering.com">http://www.buddengineering.com</A></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New"
size=2>_______________________________________________</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>NSRCA-discussion
mailing list</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New"
size=2>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><A
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A></FONT></SPAN></P><BR><BR>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New"
size=2>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New"
size=2>----</FONT></SPAN></P><BR>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>>
_______________________________________________</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>>
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>> <A
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New"
size=2>_______________________________________________</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>NSRCA-discussion
mailing list</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New"
size=2>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><A
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A></FONT></SPAN><SPAN
lang=en-us></SPAN></P>
<P>
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