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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>IMHO that is not an appropriate burden to put
on judges. And, as someone noted earlier,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>assuming judges are watching plane, they likely
won't see a potential mid air any</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>earlier than pilot.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Ron Lockhart</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=patterndude@comcast.net href="mailto:patterndude@comcast.net">Lance
Van Nostrand</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 05, 2006 10:19
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Avoidance</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Why not let give the judges the ability to call
avoidance. Pilot option to listen or not. May not catch all, but
can't be worse then letting a pilot who's focused on what hes doing to see it
and react.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>--Lance</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=lightfoot@sc.rr.com href="mailto:lightfoot@sc.rr.com">Jay
Marshall</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'NSRCA Mailing List'</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 05, 2006 1:12
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Avoidance</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">It probably
wouldn’t do to allow the pilot call out “Avoidance” - too much of a chance
or using it to bail out of a bad maneuver. It could be set up, however, for
the caller to call it <SPAN class=GramE>out ?</SPAN> They also probably have
a better vision of the total sky.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of
</SPAN></B>ronlock@comcast.net<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thursday, October 05, 2006 1:57
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> NSRCA Mailing List;
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Avoidance</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I think Ed has provided a good review
of the situation-<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">And reluctantly agree, there is too
much devil in the details to create a<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">set of criteria that judges could
apply with consistency.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Ron
Lockhart<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 3pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3pt; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">-------------- Original message
-------------- <BR>From: "Ed Alt" <ed_alt@hotmail.com> <BR><BR>>
I think the problem here is that receiving approval for interrupting a
<BR>> flight for near collisions would be based on 90% guesswork. If
the judges <BR>> are really watching what they are supposed to be
watching, they are not in a <BR>> very good position to objectively
determine if a collision was really <BR>> imminent. For that matter,
even the pilot isn't in a good position to do <BR>> this most of the
time. Some callers can probably handle this chore, others <BR>> may not
be able to. Do you want to have a situation where the caller blows
<BR>> it for you through a well intentioned, but totally inaccurate
"avoidance" <BR>> call that the judges can disagree with? Do the judges
base things on what <BR>> they hear and from who they hear it, do they
base i! t on wh at they see (like <BR>> an obvious ditch from the
flight path) or is it a combination of both? The <BR>> rules don't say
a thing about this, so it opens up more issues. <BR>> <BR>> I think
that it all happens too fast most of the time, except when two <BR>>
models get in synch in the same general direction and eventually try to
<BR>> mate. You might find that it's a dispute that the CD can't easily
settle, <BR>> because he/she probably wasn't watching and the judges
probably didn't see <BR>> it well enough to decide properly in many
cases. If there was going to be a <BR>> real, purposeful avoidance rule
for Pattern, I think it would have to be <BR>> more explicitely stated
to require the discretion of the pilot or suggestion <BR>> by the
caller to be the expresed verbally and for that matter, allow the <BR>>
pilot to declare whether or not they are actually following the callers
<BR>> suggestion or just plowing ahead. You could perhaps ! allow t he
judges to <BR>> perform a smell test if they really thought it was
bogus, but just as you <BR>> shouldn't downgrade for errors you didn't
see, you probably shouldn't <BR>> question the pilot discretion on
avoidance calls, if they are made a formal <BR>> rule. <BR>>
<BR>> All-in-all, I think it's probably not a real effective rule to
adopt. I'm <BR>> not sure that following the "If it saves just ONE
airplane, it's worth it" <BR>> line of thinking is good for
competition. Maybe it is better left to CD's <BR>> as to whether they
want to make this a standard practice at their contests. <BR>> That
would be my suggestion anyway - if the locals think this is the way to
<BR>> go and can encourage CD's to make it standard practic through a
rules waiver <BR>> for the sanctioned event, then go for it. <BR>>
<BR>> Ed <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> >From: Jeff Hill
<BR><JH102649@SPEAKEASY.NET>> >Reply-To: NSRCA Mailing List
<BR><NSRCA-DISCUSS! ION@LIS TS.NSRCA.ORG>> >To: NSRCA Mailing List
<BR><NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG>> >Subject: [NSRCA-discussion]
Avoidance <BR>> >Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 23:11:32 -0600 <BR>> >
<BR>> >All - <BR>> > <BR>> >Below is the rule from the
AMA 2005 Competition Rulebook. IMHO it requires <BR>> >you to
interrupt the maneuver and not fly any subsequent <BR>>
>maneuvers--otherwise they are scored. In this case it appears the CD
would <BR>> >have to make a ruling. In actual practice the CD would
probably rely on <BR>> >the judges' opinions for guidance. This
would most likely mean that you <BR>> >would have to bail and land
and wait for the CD to rule. If you bailed and <BR>> >your request
was denied then you cannot complete the flight; whereas if <BR>>
>you ruin one maneuver and complete the flight the rest of the flight
is <BR>> >scored but you lose your right to appeal. <BR>> >
<BR>> >In! 2007 a new rule, 6.8, might also be used as grounds for a
reflight. <BR>> > <BR>> >Both rules are printed below.
<BR>> > <BR>> >Jeff Hill <BR>> > <BR>> >10.2. Each
competitor is entitled to one (1) <BR>> >attempt for each official
flight. An attempt may be <BR>> >repeated at the judges’ discretion
only if, for some <BR>> >unforeseen reason, the model fails to make
a start <BR>> >(i.e., safety delay due to other aircraft traffic,
etc.). <BR>> >Similarly, an attempt may be repeated at the
discretion <BR>> >of the Contest Director if it has been interrupted
<BR>> >due to a circumstance beyond the control of the competitor,
<BR>> >but only the maneuver affected and the <BR>> >unscored
maneuvers that follow will be scored. The <BR>> >Contest Director
shall have sole discretionary authority <BR>> >to grant a single
repeat attempt, if, in his/her opinion, <BR>> >the competitor has !
encount ered radio interference <BR>> >during the course of an
official attempt. <BR>> >• 10.3. In the case of a collision during a
<BR>> >Pattern flight, the contestants must immediately <BR>>
>recover their aircraft. They may resume their flights <BR>>
>with the same aircraft if the aircraft are judged to be <BR>>
>airworthy or with a backup or repaired aircraft. They <BR>>
>will begin with the maneuver that was in progress or <BR>> >with
the next scheduled maneuver if the collision <BR>> >occurred between
maneuvers. The previously <BR>> >defined starting times will apply
for a resumed flight <BR>> >and the contestant will be allowed no
more than two <BR>> >(2) passes in front of the judges for the
purpose of <BR>> >trimming the plane. Scores of the previous
maneuvers <BR>> >will be added to the scores of subsequent <BR>>
>maneuvers in the resumed flight. The flight must be <BR>>
>compl! eted by the end of the round being flown, or <BR>>
>within a time frame designated by the CD. <BR>> > <BR>> >
<BR>> >6.8 The contestant may ask the CD for a flight delay or
reflight due to <BR>> >unsafe conditions; if the judges concur the
delay or reflight must be <BR>> >granted. However, the contestant’s
won aircraft cannot be the cause of <BR>> >the unsafe condition. A
contestant’s own aircraft can only have an <BR>> >equipment
malfunction. A flight delay or reflight shall not be granted <BR>>
>for equipment malfunctions at 4A and 5A contests. The CD may make
<BR>> >exceptions at other contests. <BR>> > <BR>> <BR>>
<BR>> >_______________________________________________ <BR>>
>NSRCA-discussion mailing list <BR>>
>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org <BR>>
>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion <BR>>
<BR>> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<P>
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