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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Due to the fact that my mouth likes to run more
than it should, I'm in favor of giving the judges more flexibility.
Somewhere in the "Judges Code of Ethics" it informs us that the judge should
have no verbal contact with the contestant. I realize that some contestants
don't want advice from the judges. I learned that clearly, but now that we have
contestant judging is that to say that we can't talk to each
other......c'mawwwwn.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I flew in a recent contest where my caller skipped
a maneuver and one of the judges corrected the error in time for me to execute
the proper maneuver. I'm aware that there are some rule sticklers that would
probably disqualify my flight for such an infraction, but I wanted to kiss the
judge. I think that's got something to do with being considerate as opposed to
being a rule monger ( yeah, I know, I've probably been guilty of the term and
probably will be again ). </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Somewhere in the process there has to be room for a
little discretion.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>G.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=patterndude@comcast.net href="mailto:patterndude@comcast.net">Lance
Van Nostrand</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 05, 2006 10:19
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Avoidance</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Why not let give the judges the ability to call
avoidance. Pilot option to listen or not. May not catch all, but
can't be worse then letting a pilot who's focused on what hes doing to see it
and react.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>--Lance</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=lightfoot@sc.rr.com href="mailto:lightfoot@sc.rr.com">Jay
Marshall</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'NSRCA Mailing List'</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 05, 2006 1:12
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Avoidance</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">It probably
wouldn’t do to allow the pilot call out “Avoidance” - too much of a chance
or using it to bail out of a bad maneuver. It could be set up, however, for
the caller to call it <SPAN class=GramE>out ?</SPAN> They also probably have
a better vision of the total sky.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of
</SPAN></B>ronlock@comcast.net<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thursday, October 05, 2006 1:57
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> NSRCA Mailing List;
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Avoidance</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I think Ed has provided a good review
of the situation-<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">And reluctantly agree, there is too
much devil in the details to create a<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">set of criteria that judges could
apply with consistency.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Ron
Lockhart<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 3pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3pt; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">-------------- Original message
-------------- <BR>From: "Ed Alt" <ed_alt@hotmail.com> <BR><BR>>
I think the problem here is that receiving approval for interrupting a
<BR>> flight for near collisions would be based on 90% guesswork. If
the judges <BR>> are really watching what they are supposed to be
watching, they are not in a <BR>> very good position to objectively
determine if a collision was really <BR>> imminent. For that matter,
even the pilot isn't in a good position to do <BR>> this most of the
time. Some callers can probably handle this chore, others <BR>> may not
be able to. Do you want to have a situation where the caller blows
<BR>> it for you through a well intentioned, but totally inaccurate
"avoidance" <BR>> call that the judges can disagree with? Do the judges
base things on what <BR>> they hear and from who they hear it, do they
base i! t on wh at they see (like <BR>> an obvious ditch from the
flight path) or is it a combination of both? The <BR>> rules don't say
a thing about this, so it opens up more issues. <BR>> <BR>> I think
that it all happens too fast most of the time, except when two <BR>>
models get in synch in the same general direction and eventually try to
<BR>> mate. You might find that it's a dispute that the CD can't easily
settle, <BR>> because he/she probably wasn't watching and the judges
probably didn't see <BR>> it well enough to decide properly in many
cases. If there was going to be a <BR>> real, purposeful avoidance rule
for Pattern, I think it would have to be <BR>> more explicitely stated
to require the discretion of the pilot or suggestion <BR>> by the
caller to be the expresed verbally and for that matter, allow the <BR>>
pilot to declare whether or not they are actually following the callers
<BR>> suggestion or just plowing ahead. You could perhaps ! allow t he
judges to <BR>> perform a smell test if they really thought it was
bogus, but just as you <BR>> shouldn't downgrade for errors you didn't
see, you probably shouldn't <BR>> question the pilot discretion on
avoidance calls, if they are made a formal <BR>> rule. <BR>>
<BR>> All-in-all, I think it's probably not a real effective rule to
adopt. I'm <BR>> not sure that following the "If it saves just ONE
airplane, it's worth it" <BR>> line of thinking is good for
competition. Maybe it is better left to CD's <BR>> as to whether they
want to make this a standard practice at their contests. <BR>> That
would be my suggestion anyway - if the locals think this is the way to
<BR>> go and can encourage CD's to make it standard practic through a
rules waiver <BR>> for the sanctioned event, then go for it. <BR>>
<BR>> Ed <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> >From: Jeff Hill
<BR><JH102649@SPEAKEASY.NET>> >Reply-To: NSRCA Mailing List
<BR><NSRCA-DISCUSS! ION@LIS TS.NSRCA.ORG>> >To: NSRCA Mailing List
<BR><NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG>> >Subject: [NSRCA-discussion]
Avoidance <BR>> >Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 23:11:32 -0600 <BR>> >
<BR>> >All - <BR>> > <BR>> >Below is the rule from the
AMA 2005 Competition Rulebook. IMHO it requires <BR>> >you to
interrupt the maneuver and not fly any subsequent <BR>>
>maneuvers--otherwise they are scored. In this case it appears the CD
would <BR>> >have to make a ruling. In actual practice the CD would
probably rely on <BR>> >the judges' opinions for guidance. This
would most likely mean that you <BR>> >would have to bail and land
and wait for the CD to rule. If you bailed and <BR>> >your request
was denied then you cannot complete the flight; whereas if <BR>>
>you ruin one maneuver and complete the flight the rest of the flight
is <BR>> >scored but you lose your right to appeal. <BR>> >
<BR>> >In! 2007 a new rule, 6.8, might also be used as grounds for a
reflight. <BR>> > <BR>> >Both rules are printed below.
<BR>> > <BR>> >Jeff Hill <BR>> > <BR>> >10.2. Each
competitor is entitled to one (1) <BR>> >attempt for each official
flight. An attempt may be <BR>> >repeated at the judges’ discretion
only if, for some <BR>> >unforeseen reason, the model fails to make
a start <BR>> >(i.e., safety delay due to other aircraft traffic,
etc.). <BR>> >Similarly, an attempt may be repeated at the
discretion <BR>> >of the Contest Director if it has been interrupted
<BR>> >due to a circumstance beyond the control of the competitor,
<BR>> >but only the maneuver affected and the <BR>> >unscored
maneuvers that follow will be scored. The <BR>> >Contest Director
shall have sole discretionary authority <BR>> >to grant a single
repeat attempt, if, in his/her opinion, <BR>> >the competitor has !
encount ered radio interference <BR>> >during the course of an
official attempt. <BR>> >• 10.3. In the case of a collision during a
<BR>> >Pattern flight, the contestants must immediately <BR>>
>recover their aircraft. They may resume their flights <BR>>
>with the same aircraft if the aircraft are judged to be <BR>>
>airworthy or with a backup or repaired aircraft. They <BR>>
>will begin with the maneuver that was in progress or <BR>> >with
the next scheduled maneuver if the collision <BR>> >occurred between
maneuvers. The previously <BR>> >defined starting times will apply
for a resumed flight <BR>> >and the contestant will be allowed no
more than two <BR>> >(2) passes in front of the judges for the
purpose of <BR>> >trimming the plane. Scores of the previous
maneuvers <BR>> >will be added to the scores of subsequent <BR>>
>maneuvers in the resumed flight. The flight must be <BR>>
>compl! eted by the end of the round being flown, or <BR>>
>within a time frame designated by the CD. <BR>> > <BR>> >
<BR>> >6.8 The contestant may ask the CD for a flight delay or
reflight due to <BR>> >unsafe conditions; if the judges concur the
delay or reflight must be <BR>> >granted. However, the contestant’s
won aircraft cannot be the cause of <BR>> >the unsafe condition. A
contestant’s own aircraft can only have an <BR>> >equipment
malfunction. A flight delay or reflight shall not be granted <BR>>
>for equipment malfunctions at 4A and 5A contests. The CD may make
<BR>> >exceptions at other contests. <BR>> > <BR>> <BR>>
<BR>> >_______________________________________________ <BR>>
>NSRCA-discussion mailing list <BR>>
>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org <BR>>
>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion <BR>>
<BR>> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<P>
<HR>
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