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<DIV><FONT face=Arial>If I start using it, I'll probably never make it through a
flight..... :)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Verne (8 mid-airs and a kazillion close
calls)</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=atwoodm@paragon-inc.com href="mailto:atwoodm@paragon-inc.com">Atwood,
Mark</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 05, 2006 5:40
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [NSRCA-discussion] Bad
sportsmanship - was Avoidance</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I’m sorry…I have to
jump in here. Are we REALLY worried about someone using this to bail out
of a bad maneuver and cheat?? I mean really. I’m not saying it
won’t happen. I’m saying do the rest of us care?? It’s
the same argument that goes to the whole issue of the points system and
sandbagging. I know it happens…and I’m sure some idiot wins A contest
because of it… But that’s just what it is…an idiot…and A contest.
Is it a little frustrating?? Sure… but it’s not something I think
we should revamp all our rules to try and avoid. I’m as
competitive as the next person in this sport, but if someone wants to win a
model airplane contest sooooooo badly that they have to
cheat?? Whew…they have WAY bigger problems to deal with…let
‘em win. The same goes for people throwing a hissy fit at a local
contest because someone was allowed to move to the bottom of the order because
of a technical problem or something. Same issue…if they’re really doing
to that to garner an advantage…they have issues. And if the person
complaining is that afraid of having them fly against them…well…they have
issues too. BTW, the Nats are a slightly
different story…the stakes are a little higher, and the rules as we have them
need to be fairly strictly enforced. But most of the time…this is
supposed to be fun/friendly competition. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">On that same note
though, I’m not sure an Avoidance rule would help us much. I think
it creates a number of issues, and would save very few airplanes if
any. I see more damage done to aircraft on horrible landings
because the pilot tried to force a bad approach rather than go around and take
the zero. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">-Mark<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Jay Marshall<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thursday, October 05, 2006 2:13
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> 'NSRCA Mailing
List'<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Avoidance</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">It probably wouldn’t
do to allow the pilot call out “Avoidance” - too much of a chance or using it
to bail out of a bad maneuver. It could be set up, however, for the caller to
call it out ? They also probably have a better vision of the total
sky.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of
</SPAN></B>ronlock@comcast.net<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thursday, October 05, 2006 1:57
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> NSRCA Mailing List;
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Avoidance</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I think Ed has provided a good review of
the situation-<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">And reluctantly agree, there is too much
devil in the details to create a<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">set of criteria that judges could
apply with consistency.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Ron
Lockhart<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 3pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3pt; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">-------------- Original message
-------------- <BR>From: "Ed Alt" <ed_alt@hotmail.com> <BR><BR>> I
think the problem here is that receiving approval for interrupting a
<BR>> flight for near collisions would be based on 90% guesswork. If the
judges <BR>> are really watching what they are supposed to be watching,
they are not in a <BR>> very good position to objectively determine if a
collision was really <BR>> imminent. For that matter, even the pilot
isn't in a good position to do <BR>> this most of the time. Some callers
can probably handle this chore, others <BR>> may not be able to. Do you
want to have a situation where the caller blows <BR>> it for you through
a well intentioned, but totally inaccurate "avoidance" <BR>> call that
the judges can disagree with? Do the judges base things on what <BR>>
they hear and from who they hear it, do they base i! t on wh at they see
(like <BR>> an obvious ditch from the flight path) or is it a combination
of both? The <BR>> rules don't say a thing about this, so it opens up
more issues. <BR>> <BR>> I think that it all happens too fast most of
the time, except when two <BR>> models get in synch in the same general
direction and eventually try to <BR>> mate. You might find that it's a
dispute that the CD can't easily settle, <BR>> because he/she probably
wasn't watching and the judges probably didn't see <BR>> it well enough
to decide properly in many cases. If there was going to be a <BR>> real,
purposeful avoidance rule for Pattern, I think it would have to be <BR>>
more explicitely stated to require the discretion of the pilot or suggestion
<BR>> by the caller to be the expresed verbally and for that matter,
allow the <BR>> pilot to declare whether or not they are actually
following the callers <BR>> suggestion or just plowing ahead. You could
perhaps ! allow t he judges to <BR>> perform a smell test if they really
thought it was bogus, but just as you <BR>> shouldn't downgrade for
errors you didn't see, you probably shouldn't <BR>> question the pilot
discretion on avoidance calls, if they are made a formal <BR>> rule.
<BR>> <BR>> All-in-all, I think it's probably not a real effective
rule to adopt. I'm <BR>> not sure that following the "If it saves just
ONE airplane, it's worth it" <BR>> line of thinking is good for
competition. Maybe it is better left to CD's <BR>> as to whether they
want to make this a standard practice at their contests. <BR>> That would
be my suggestion anyway - if the locals think this is the way to <BR>> go
and can encourage CD's to make it standard practic through a rules waiver
<BR>> for the sanctioned event, then go for it. <BR>> <BR>> Ed
<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> >From: Jeff Hill
<BR><JH102649@SPEAKEASY.NET>> >Reply-To: NSRCA Mailing List
<BR><NSRCA-DISCUSS! TS.NSRCA.ORG ION@LIS>> >To: NSRCA Mailing List
<BR><NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG>> >Subject: [NSRCA-discussion]
Avoidance <BR>> >Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 23:11:32 -0600 <BR>> >
<BR>> >All - <BR>> > <BR>> >Below is the rule from the AMA
2005 Competition Rulebook. IMHO it requires <BR>> >you to interrupt
the maneuver and not fly any subsequent <BR>> >maneuvers--otherwise
they are scored. In this case it appears the CD would <BR>> >have to
make a ruling. In actual practice the CD would probably rely on <BR>>
>the judges' opinions for guidance. This would most likely mean that you
<BR>> >would have to bail and land and wait for the CD to rule. If you
bailed and <BR>> >your request was denied then you cannot complete the
flight; whereas if <BR>> >you ruin one maneuver and complete the
flight the rest of the flight is <BR>> >scored but you lose your right
to appeal. <BR>> > <BR>> >In! 2007 a new rule, 6.8, might also
be used as grounds for a reflight. <BR>> > <BR>> >Both rules are
printed below. <BR>> > <BR>> >Jeff Hill <BR>> > <BR>>
>10.2. Each competitor is entitled to one (1) <BR>> >attempt for
each official flight. An attempt may be <BR>> >repeated at the judges’
discretion only if, for some <BR>> >unforeseen reason, the model fails
to make a start <BR>> >(i.e., safety delay due to other aircraft
traffic, etc.). <BR>> >Similarly, an attempt may be repeated at the
discretion <BR>> >of the Contest Director if it has been interrupted
<BR>> >due to a circumstance beyond the control of the competitor,
<BR>> >but only the maneuver affected and the <BR>> >unscored
maneuvers that follow will be scored. The <BR>> >Contest Director
shall have sole discretionary authority <BR>> >to grant a single
repeat attempt, if, in his/her opinion, <BR>> >the competitor has !
encount ered radio interference <BR>> >during the course of an
official attempt. <BR>> >• 10.3. In the case of a collision during a
<BR>> >Pattern flight, the contestants must immediately <BR>>
>recover their aircraft. They may resume their flights <BR>> >with
the same aircraft if the aircraft are judged to be <BR>> >airworthy or
with a backup or repaired aircraft. They <BR>> >will begin with the
maneuver that was in progress or <BR>> >with the next scheduled
maneuver if the collision <BR>> >occurred between maneuvers. The
previously <BR>> >defined starting times will apply for a resumed
flight <BR>> >and the contestant will be allowed no more than two
<BR>> >(2) passes in front of the judges for the purpose of <BR>>
>trimming the plane. Scores of the previous maneuvers <BR>> >will
be added to the scores of subsequent <BR>> >maneuvers in the resumed
flight. The flight must be <BR>> >compl! eted by the end of the round
being flown, or <BR>> >within a time frame designated by the CD.
<BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> >6.8 The contestant may ask the CD
for a flight delay or reflight due to <BR>> >unsafe conditions; if the
judges concur the delay or reflight must be <BR>> >granted. However,
the contestant’s won aircraft cannot be the cause of <BR>> >the unsafe
condition. A contestant’s own aircraft can only have an <BR>>
>equipment malfunction. A flight delay or reflight shall not be granted
<BR>> >for equipment malfunctions at 4A and 5A contests. The CD may
make <BR>> >exceptions at other contests. <BR>> > <BR>>
<BR>> <BR>> >_______________________________________________
<BR>> >NSRCA-discussion mailing list <BR>>
>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org <BR>>
>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion <BR>>
<BR>> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
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