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If we are to read the judging guide and go by the start with 10 and
deduct 1 point per 15 degrees guide like it says, then where is the
S&G downgrade or upgrade? There is no guidance by the guide. This
has always bothered me since it is a criteria that has no "guidance".
It is supposed to be there in order to get a 10, but the guide already
say to start with 10 and deduct 1 per 15 degrees etc. It sounds like
its a purely subjective criteria with no set value either up or down.
But the truth of this whole discussion is that judging is a subjective
issue and we can only offer guidance and specific criteria for some but
not all of the factors involved.<br>
So, we can fix this simply by getting together a few million dollars,
create a system with transponders on each plane and some sort of laser
grid 3-dimensional computer path generator on the ground. The computer
will compare the plane's track with the optimal version in it's
programming and produce a score based on the degree to which your
flight matches the optimal track in the computer. Simple, and no human
judges needed :)<br>
Or, we can keep hammering away to continually improve the accuracy of
the humans (us) in our current system.<br>
<br>
Chris<br>
PS- Please take a moment to thank Don Ramsey for all he does for us.
Our judging may not be perfect yet , but its waaaaay better than it
used to be.<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</a> wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid100420061409.14491.4523C0AF000444B10000389B2206424613CDCDCCB40A900EBB@comcast.net"
type="cite">
<div>Georgie is right that the subconscious element is one we can not
control, and it manifests itself in several ways in our sport. The
best remedy for it is awareness, education, training, practice.
Particuarly relevant is the distinction between S+G and mushy and vague
as Pappas pointed out.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I think Lance has a good perspective - essentially, S+G is a
tool/resource of the pilot that can be used to present a technically
perfect maneuver - and that is exactly what the top pilots do - do not
confess errors - if you screw up, screw up smoothly, etc.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>So in practice, S+G exists as a tool used by the pilots, and is
a subjective (and largely subconscious) element which affects judges
scores. I don't see the need to list it as a specific judging
criteria, opening the door for a more subjective scoring of the event.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div><br>
Dave </div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote
style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px;">--------------
Original message -------------- <br>
From: "george w. kennie" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:geobet@gis.net"><geobet@gis.net></a> <br>
<meta content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2963" name="GENERATOR">
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Even if the S&G criteria were
removed from the rulebook, it would remain in the subconcious. There is
just something in the depths of the human psyche that cries out for a
way to award the performance accomplished with polish in a way that
separates it from the one executed with mediocrity. That has to be
IMPRESSION guys..........I think.................</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">G.</font> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote
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<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">-----
Original Message ----- </div>
<div
style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>From:</b>
<a title="patterndude@comcast.net"
href="mailto:patterndude@comcast.net">Lance Van Nostrand</a> </div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>To:</b>
<a title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</a> </div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Sent:</b>
Tuesday, October 03, 2006 10:07 PM</div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Subject:</b>
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Impression or precision judging?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">I'm a ditto head to Dave on this
one. I can't imagine a situation where someone could fly perfect
precision - I mean really perfect with all lines straight, radiuses
matched, etc that should not get scored all 10s. How would the pattern
be flown differently to introduct S&G and maintain 10s? Should a
very smooth and graceful sequence flown with a bunch of 9.5 precision
scores (actual defects that cause a .5 point downgrade) be given
10s? If we were to eliminate S&G and have only downgrades for
precision errors then judges must interpret S&G critically in that
S&G flair can hurt but not help a manuver. truth is, pilots will
use S&G to mask precision errors, or to mask difficult timing and
centering issues. I watch pilots much better than me get away with
murder but do it so purposefully and smooth that judges don't seem to
even see it. </font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Eliminating S&G from the
judging criteria would not eliminate S&G from flying nor from
judging, but it would weaken it as a reason to downgrade. If all you
can say is that the manuver seemed technically correct but there was
"something" wrong, then what you are really saying is that it was not
technically correct and you saw the downgrade but you just can't put
your finger on it in your conscious mind. I would be OK with admitting
that was my limitation as a human judge and I will not penalize the
pilot for it.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">--Lance</font></div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote
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<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">-----
Original Message ----- </div>
<div
style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>From:</b>
<a title="DaveL322@comcast.net"
href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</a> </div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>To:</b>
<a title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</a> </div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Sent:</b>
Tuesday, October 03, 2006 10:04 AM</div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Subject:</b>
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Impression or precision judging?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>Technically perfect is well understood and can be
objectively assessed. Specific judging criteria and downgrades are
well defined/documented in our judges guide. Yes, gray areas do exist
in which it is difficult to extract an exact point value downgrade from
the rulebook, but guidance/basis is there, and it is the job of a judge
to make judgements (and in my experience 90% of the time the answer to
the gray areas is apply 1 point per 15 degrees).</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Smooth and graceful (S+G) is subjective, and to date has
never had a point value or downgrades associated with it. The S+G
criteria allows an impression judge to score a technically
flawed maneuver higher than a technically perfect maneuver.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Should a sequence that is flown technically perfect be
awarded the highest score? </div>
</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Should it be possible to outscore a technically perfect
sequence with a technically flawed one that is "more smooth" or "more
graceful"?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I don't think we should include (S+G) or pursue
(Impression score) criteria which are ill-defined or purely subjective
- pattern is about precision aerobatics which can be (is) well defined,
and is a thing of beauty (to the select few that appreciate it) without
the need for S+G, style, or impression points.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div><br>
Dave Lockhart</div>
<div><a href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</a></div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote
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Original message -------------- <br>
From: "White, Chris" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:chris@ssd.fsi.com"><chris@ssd.fsi.com></a> <br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial;">I’d love to
hear some feedback to the following: (or maybe not, but it might help
my understanding of what we’re trying to accomplish in our
judging/flying</span></font><font color="navy" face="Wingdings" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Wingdings;">J</span></font><font
color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial;">)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial;">Question:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial;">Isn’t
clinical precision flying the only way to attempt to remove impression
judging? Shouldn’t the sequence itself if flown to precision “be” the
art form?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial;">Example 1: <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial;">I saw one
pilot fly the FAI sequence at our contest last June…. To me his flying
was clinically precise without any “Style” of his own. I mean that
very much as a compliment. The roll rates and radiuses and speeds to
me were very consistent….his timing and flight line control were very
“Clinically precise” It struck me at that if a computer GPS link could
have been flown with an autopilot laying out the perfectly executed
sequence he would have been close. The nearly perfect geometry of the
sequence spoke for itself.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial;">Example 2:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial;">An example
of impression that I can think of would be some of the point rolls that
I used to see in the 70’s….the ones that kind of slip & lock into
each point (exaggerated lock in), but I could not score them better
than points that merely stop where they are supposed to with minimum
fanfare…..could I? (In fact since one could argue that the roll rate
changes to get that effect it could be downgraded more…..) But I like
it, its an individual preference, but to the letter of the law its
incorrect.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial;">Maybe we
should judge by technical merit and each judge give an overall
“Impression” rating someplace on the scoresheet???<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial;">(Wow I spent
all this time trying to think of how to word this….Gee do I hit the
send button…….?????? I hope this strikes a positive chord
somewhere…okay my motive is to learn so I’ll send it.)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial;">Chris White<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<div class="headerdisplayname" style="display: inline;">Subject:
</div>
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Impression or precision judging?</td>
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<td>
<div class="headerdisplayname" style="display: inline;">From: </div>
"george w. kennie" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:geobet@gis.net"><geobet@gis.net></a></td>
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<div class="headerdisplayname" style="display: inline;">Date: </div>
Wed, 4 Oct 2006 03:08:44 +0000</td>
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