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<DIV><SPAN class=621122817-04102006><FONT face=Arial>Hi
George,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=621122817-04102006><FONT face=Arial>You are on to something
here ...</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=621122817-04102006><FONT face=Arial>When Keith talked
about doing individual elements slowly enough to demonstrate complete
moment-by-moment control, he points out something important. Good,
too.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=621122817-04102006><FONT face=Arial>Is it more impressive if
someone demonstrates the same complete control in a less leisurely fashion?
Maybe, maybe not, but that is style: and not subject to downgrade.
(ahem)</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=621122817-04102006><FONT face=Arial>It certainly is
<EM>less</EM> impressive if you get the impression that the pilot flew up to the
element - exercized some pre-in-the-head-programmed sequence of stick movements
-</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=621122817-04102006><FONT face=Arial>and then started flying the
plane again. That's muscle memory flying, not complete
control.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=621122817-04102006><FONT face=Arial>The complaint is with
judges who look for smoothness, while ignoring fundamental geometry flaws, no
one has a gripe with looking for the impression of
control.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=621122817-04102006><FONT face=Arial>Two examples of the
problem:</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=621122817-04102006><FONT face=Arial>some judges mistake the
complete lack of a defined </FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=621122817-04102006><FONT
face=Arial>line between two elements as a smooth exit from the previous and a
smooth entry to the next.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=621122817-04102006><FONT face=Arial>It's not a smooth
entry/exit, it's a missing element! </FONT></SPAN><SPAN
class=621122817-04102006><FONT face=Arial>I have seen pilots win big contests
doing this, and banging my head against my fieldbox didn't help
it make sense.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=621122817-04102006><FONT face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=621122817-04102006><FONT face=Arial>Similarly, the transitions
between elements should be smooth <EM>and</EM> defined, rather than mushy
and ill-defined. Try teaching that to new judges, I triple dog dare
you!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=621122817-04102006><FONT face=Arial>The unfortunate fact is
that judges will find it hard to find fault with what you do <EM>not </EM>show
them.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=621122817-04102006><FONT face=Arial>Don't draw a line between
maneuvers, and no one will see that you heading was off!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=621122817-04102006><FONT face=Arial>Only the astute judge will
notice the lack of line, because we are generally taught to find flaws with what
<EM>was</EM> shown.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=621122817-04102006><FONT face=Arial>We talk about this problem
in the judges' guide, but it's tough to train ourselves to judge all the
elements we <EM>should have</EM> seen, rather than the ones we did see.
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=621122817-04102006><FONT face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=621122817-04102006><FONT face=Arial>It's all glittering
generalities, I'm afraid ...</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=621122817-04102006> <FONT
face=Arial>Dean</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=621122817-04102006><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman">Dean Pappas</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Sr. Design Engineer</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Kodeos Communications</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">111 Corporate Blvd.</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">South Plainfield, N.J. 07080</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-7817 phone</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-2392 fax</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">d.pappas@kodeos.com</FONT> </P>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of </B>george w.
kennie<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, October 04, 2006 1:07 PM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA
Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Impression or precision
judging?<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>One more good illustrative viewpoint, which I am
in total agreement with (this guy seems to always make sense to me). I
wonder if there might be some variation in the definition for different
individuals making it difficult to assign an applicable standard?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>G.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=tkeithb@comcast.net href="mailto:tkeithb@comcast.net">Keith
Black</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, October 03, 2006 11:31
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Impression or precision judging?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Is the issue for those who are against scoring
S&G that you don't feel S&G should be rewarded, or is it that we
have not adequately defined how the S&G score should be
applied? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'm a logical guy and can't determine how
S&G should be applied, this bothers me. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>HOWEVER, there's an innate sense in me that
says if a pilot has enough control over his plane to stretch a slow roll
from horizon to horizon, or to slowly and cleanly draw out his 4 of 8 in a
Cuban Eight then that pilot should prevail over one that does the
minimum length slow roll and four quick, jerky (but accurate) points in
the Cuban.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Some pilots clearly have more control over
their planes and open themselves to more exposure by making nice slow rolls
and radii and therefore if each pilot flew a maneuver with 1/2 point
geometry downgrade it seems to go against what we're all striving for NOT to
reward the one that demonstrated more control (skill).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The problem is that we haven't defined
specifically how this should be applied. Perhaps that was intentional to
allow flexibility in rewarding what was inherently understand, I'm not
sure.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Keith Black</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=geobet@gis.net href="mailto:geobet@gis.net">george w. kennie</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, October 03, 2006 10:06
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Impression or precision judging?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Even if the S&G criteria were removed
from the rulebook, it would remain in the subconcious. There is just
something in the depths of the human psyche that cries out for a way to
award the performance accomplished with polish in a way that separates it
from the one executed with mediocrity. That has to be IMPRESSION
guys..........I think.................</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>G.</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=patterndude@comcast.net
href="mailto:patterndude@comcast.net">Lance Van Nostrand</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, October 03, 2006
10:07 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Impression or precision judging?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'm a ditto head to Dave on this one.
I can't imagine a situation where someone could fly perfect precision
- I mean really perfect with all lines straight, radiuses
matched, etc that should not get scored all 10s. How would the
pattern be flown differently to introduct S&G and maintain
10s? Should a very smooth and graceful sequence flown with a bunch
of 9.5 precision scores (actual defects that cause a .5 point downgrade)
be given 10s? If we were to eliminate S&G and have only
downgrades for precision errors then judges must interpret S&G
critically in that S&G flair can hurt but not help a manuver.
truth is, pilots will use S&G to mask precision errors, or to mask
difficult timing and centering issues. I watch pilots much better
than me get away with murder but do it so purposefully and smooth that
judges don't seem to even see it. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Eliminating S&G from the judging
criteria would not eliminate S&G from flying nor from judging, but
it would weaken it as a reason to downgrade. If all you can say is
that the manuver seemed technically correct but there was "something"
wrong, then what you are really saying is that it was not technically
correct and you saw the downgrade but you just can't put your finger on
it in your conscious mind. I would be OK with admitting that was
my limitation as a human judge and I will not penalize the pilot for
it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>--Lance</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=DaveL322@comcast.net
href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, October 03, 2006
10:04 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Impression or precision judging?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>Technically perfect is well understood and can be objectively
assessed. Specific judging criteria and downgrades are well
defined/documented in our judges guide. Yes, gray areas do exist
in which it is difficult to extract an exact point value downgrade
from the rulebook, but guidance/basis is there, and it is the job of a
judge to make judgements (and in my experience 90% of the time the
answer to the gray areas is apply 1 point per 15 degrees).</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Smooth and graceful (S+G) is subjective, and to date has never
had a point value or downgrades associated with it. The S+G
criteria allows an impression judge to score a technically
flawed maneuver higher than a technically perfect maneuver.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Should a sequence that is flown technically perfect be awarded
the highest score? </DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Should it be possible to outscore a technically perfect sequence
with a technically flawed one that is "more smooth" or "more
graceful"?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I don't think we should include (S+G) or pursue (Impression
score) criteria which are ill-defined or purely subjective - pattern
is about precision aerobatics which can be (is) well defined, and is a
thing of beauty (to the select few that appreciate it) without the
need for S+G, style, or impression points.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Regards,</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Dave Lockhart</DIV>
<DIV><A
href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">--------------
Original message -------------- <BR>From: "White, Chris"
<chris@ssd.fsi.com> <BR>
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<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I’d love to
hear some feedback to the following: (or maybe not, but it might
help my understanding of what we’re trying to accomplish in our
judging/flying</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Wingdings color=navy
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Wingdings">J</SPAN></FONT><FONT
face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Question:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Isn’t
clinical precision flying the only way to attempt to remove
impression judging? Shouldn’t the sequence itself if flown to
precision “be” the art form?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Example 1:
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I saw one
pilot fly the FAI sequence at our contest last June…. To me his
flying was clinically precise without any “Style” of his own.
I mean that very much as a compliment. The roll rates and
radiuses and speeds to me were very consistent….his timing and
flight line control were very “Clinically precise” It struck
me at that if a computer GPS link could have been flown with an
autopilot laying out the perfectly executed sequence he would have
been close. The nearly perfect geometry of the sequence spoke
for itself.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Example
2:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">An example
of impression that I can think of would be some of the point rolls
that I used to see in the 70’s….the ones that kind of slip &
lock into each point (exaggerated lock in), but I could not score
them better than points that merely stop where they are supposed to
with minimum fanfare…..could I? (In fact since one could argue that
the roll rate changes to get that effect it could be downgraded
more…..) But I like it, its an individual preference, but to
the letter of the law its incorrect.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Maybe we
should judge by technical merit and each judge give an overall
“Impression” rating someplace on the
scoresheet???<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">(Wow I
spent all this time trying to think of how to word this….Gee do I
hit the send button…….?????? I hope this strikes a positive
chord somewhere…okay my motive is to learn so I’ll send
it.)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Chris
White<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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