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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I kinda feel like as long as we have a "smooth and
graceful" component included in the judging criteria, there is probably always
going to be SOME impression emotion creeping into our recorded judgements.
However, after watching a very gifted individual fly with extreme smoothness and
gracefulness and recording his scores and subsequently comparing his
overall results with someone who flew very precise geometry and discovering that
the precision guy scored higher I seem to draw the conclusion that the
regimented approach appears to dominate and overpower the effects of impression.
I dunno for sure.........................</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Me.</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=DaveL322@comcast.net
href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, October 02, 2006 10:57
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Wind
correction scoring</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Many good points already made, and good technical discussions
presented.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The distinction between textbook technical judging and non-textbook
"impression" judging will always exist, and I think (as most if not all) we
should strive to eliminate the impression judging whenever possible. For
that reason, I would opposed to an "artistic" or "overall" flight score which
could be an opening for a very subjective score which is markedly contrasting
to the objective scoring/goal on which pattern is based. It takes a lot
of effort make a well designed schedule which is technically well
executed look unappealing.</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Regards,</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Dave Lockhart</DIV>
<DIV><A href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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Original message -------------- <BR>From: Rcmaster199@aol.com <BR>
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<DIV>
<DIV>To Ed's point, If the model flies a technically correct maneuver in
heavy wind, few judges are desciplined enough to really judge only the
technical merit, as per the book. Most will also see the strange attitudes
the model must endure even if track was correct, particularly when properly
compensating for said wind, and take off points for smoothness and grace.
</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Throw in slower flight which is the present norm especially with
e-flight, and the issue can get exacerbated. Faster flight regime in heavy
wind will tend to mask wind compensation.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>There have been many superb flights that were wind corrected extremely
well to deserved high scores. The Nats is often the place since it is
usually so windy and demands some superb performances. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>However, two stick out in my mind, performed in relatively obscure
local contests.... Ivan Kristensen in Jacksonville a bunch of years ago, and
Pete Collinson in Ocala just a couple years ago. Both contests were held
early in the season and anyone who has spent any time in Florida will know
how windy the early season can be there. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Both explained that they essentially "flew the wind". Ivan added that
he flew "b..ls to the wall...". Pete did also except his model was set-up
for only moderately fast speed, which caused the
perennial F3A winner in FLA at the time to exclaim "...well,
if you're gonna get beat, might as well be by the best.."</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Judging Pattern fairly and consistently is tough needless to say,
particularly in difficult conditions. To Earl's point, Technical Merit and
Artistic Merit are combined in our present mode of judging. Perhaps
we may want to separate them, as done in other similar
sports.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Matt</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 9/30/2006 7:04:05 AM Eastern Standard Time,
ehaury@houston.rr.com writes:</DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Ed</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'll always score the technically correct
higher!! </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>As a judge I just am amazed at the folks that
will wind correct properly on uplines and simply disregard it on downlines
- totally destroying a good score. Unfortunately - some judges still can't
get past the ugly, the only sure way around this is to score with some
sort of machine. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>It takes a lot of practice to develop a
"feel" for the wind so as to recognize just what / how much to compensate.
Often the pilot requires several maneuvers to get this feel in a
competition flight - the judges instantly see the results. The latter may
be why some feel wind corrected maneuvers don't score well - it's easy for
the judge to see and hard to fly correctly.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>How about some technical discussion of wind
correcting - we're drawing maneuvers in a moving medium (air) that affects
the trajectory of our machine (airplane). Does speed really help - other
than shortening the time exposure? Is slower better - gives more time to
correctly apply thrust vector "against" the wind? Uplines take some (x)
power in calm, additional power is needed for the wind vector (y), how
much y to maintain x in calm? Steve's point - downlines are affected by
the same wind as uplines, gravity usually is used for x - won't y thrust
(adding power) improve downline attitude in wind? Can power be added for y
without helping gravity too much (downline speed)?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Earl</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=mailto:divesplat@yahoo.com href="mailto:divesplat@yahoo.com">Ed
Deaver</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, September 29, 2006
9:48 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Wind correction</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Thanx Ken, but which would you score
higher?? I know what we are supposed to do, but that is the jist
of my post. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Ed<BR><BR><B><I>Ken Thompson <<A
title=mailto:mrandmrst@comcast.net
href="mailto:mrandmrst@comcast.net">mrandmrst@comcast.net</A>></I></B>
wrote:</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hard to ignore "ugly", but you need to
judge the "track"</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=mailto:divesplat@yahoo.com
href="mailto:divesplat@yahoo.com">Ed Deaver</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing
List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, September 29,
2006 9:13 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [NSRCA-discussion]
Wind correction</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Hey everyone. While the season is
winding down, Don Ramsey and I had an interesting discussion this
past weekend. Am wondering what the general consensus
is.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>First, let me state, judges are human and I
understand that. Also, many judges don't know the exact
wording of many rules, I understant that also.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Soooo</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Will a pilot score higher if they follow the
letter of the law and wind correct perfectly, but fly an ugly
manuever, or wind correct a little and let the plane look "prettier"
in a manuever?????</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Lets use the first maneuver in the Master's
sequence after entering the box. Stall turn 1 1/4 rolls up,
3/4 rolls down exit inverted. On a strong wind day, not
pulling to vertical to maintain the line doesn't look to bad (we
expect that) the 1 1/4 rolls in centered, looking good, appropriate
rudder is given to maintain a straight vertical line (again expected
and usually doesn't require much as we are at full throttle), the
stall goes off without a hitch, but do to lack of airspeed we cant
the fuse and hold rudder into the wind letting the fuse lean at a
45degree angle to maintain a straight line (this is the part I'm
curious about) until the 3/4 roll and using a little down elevator
to hold the line after the roll (again expected but not
ugly)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Everything about this manuever is done and
doesn't detract from the overall appearance of the manuever except
the down line after the stall, which is simply "UGLY"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Just curious what everyone says. Again,
I know what the rules say, and am not interested in a rule book
interpretation, but what do you think about scoring better vs
worse???</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Thanx</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT
face=Arial>ed</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>
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