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<DIV>John,</DIV>
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<DIV>I couldn't agree more, and I'd like to see "smoothness and gracefullness" completely removed as a judging criteria as no one has ever been able to quantify what the downgrade should be, or how a geometrically perfect maneuver can be outscored by a more "graceful" maneuver.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Standing by with a bucket of water...</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Regards,</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Dave Lockhart</DIV>
<DIV><A href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">-------------- Original message -------------- <BR>From: "John Ferrell" <johnferrell@earthlink.net> <BR>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>For that reason I believe the word "Graceful" should be removed from the rule book in every instance. Even dictionaries have trouble defining "Graceful". </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>That ought to draw a little fire.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>John Ferrell W8CCW<BR>"My Competition is not my enemy"<BR><A href="http://dixienc.us/">http://DixieNC.US</A><BR></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=DaveL322@comcast.net href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, October 02, 2006 10:57 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Wind correction scoring</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Many good points already made, and good technical discussions presented.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The distinction between textbook technical judging and non-textbook "impression" judging will always exist, and I think (as most if not all) we should strive to eliminate the impression judging whenever possible. For that reason, I would opposed to an "artistic" or "overall" flight score which could be an opening for a very subjective score which is markedly contrasting to the objective scoring/goal on which pattern is based. It takes a lot of effort make a well designed schedule which is technically well executed look unappealing.</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Regards,</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Dave Lockhart</DIV>
<DIV><A href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">-------------- Original message -------------- <BR>From: Rcmaster199@aol.com <BR>
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<DIV>To Ed's point, If the model flies a technically correct maneuver in heavy wind, few judges are desciplined enough to really judge only the technical merit, as per the book. Most will also see the strange attitudes the model must endure even if track was correct, particularly when properly compensating for said wind, and take off points for smoothness and grace. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Throw in slower flight which is the present norm especially with e-flight, and the issue can get exacerbated. Faster flight regime in heavy wind will tend to mask wind compensation.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>There have been many superb flights that were wind corrected extremely well to deserved high scores. The Nats is often the place since it is usually so windy and demands some superb performances. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>However, two stick out in my mind, performed in relatively obscure local contests.... Ivan Kristensen in Jacksonville a bunch of years ago, and Pete Collinson in Ocala just a couple years ago. Both contests were held early in the season and anyone who has spent any time in Florida will know how windy the early season can be there. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Both explained that they essentially "flew the wind". Ivan added that he flew "b..ls to the wall...". Pete did also except his model was set-up for only moderately fast speed, which caused the perennial F3A winner in FLA at the time to exclaim "...well, if you're gonna get beat, might as well be by the best.."</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Judging Pattern fairly and consistently is tough needless to say, particularly in difficult conditions. To Earl's point, Technical Merit and Artistic Merit are combined in our present mode of judging. Perhaps we may want to separate them, as done in other similar sports.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Matt</DIV>
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<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 9/30/2006 7:04:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, ehaury@houston.rr.com writes:</DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Ed</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'll always score the technically correct higher!! </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>As a judge I just am amazed at the folks that will wind correct properly on uplines and simply disregard it on downlines - totally destroying a good score. Unfortunately - some judges still can't get past the ugly, the only sure way around this is to score with some sort of machine. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>It takes a lot of practice to develop a "feel" for the wind so as to recognize just what / how much to compensate. Often the pilot requires several maneuvers to get this feel in a competition flight - the judges instantly see the results. The latter may be why some feel wind corrected maneuvers don't score well - it's easy for the judge to see and hard to fly correctly.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>How about some technical discussion of wind correcting - we're drawing maneuvers in a moving medium (air) that affects the trajectory of our machine (airplane). Does speed really help - other than shortening the time exposure? Is slower better - gives more time to correctly apply thrust vector "against" the wind? Uplines take some (x) power in calm, additional power is needed for the wind vector (y), how much y to maintain x in calm? Steve's point - downlines are affected by the same wind as uplines, gravity usually is used for x - won't y thrust (adding power) improve downline attitude in wind? Can power be added for y without helping gravity too much (downline speed)?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Earl</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=mailto:divesplat@yahoo.com href="mailto:divesplat@yahoo.com">Ed Deaver</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, September 29, 2006 9:48 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Wind correction</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Thanx Ken, but which would you score higher?? I know what we are supposed to do, but that is the jist of my post. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Ed<BR><BR><B><I>Ken Thompson <<A title=mailto:mrandmrst@comcast.net href="mailto:mrandmrst@comcast.net">mrandmrst@comcast.net</A>></I></B> wrote:</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hard to ignore "ugly", but you need to judge the "track"</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=mailto:divesplat@yahoo.com href="mailto:divesplat@yahoo.com">Ed Deaver</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, September 29, 2006 9:13 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [NSRCA-discussion] Wind correction</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Hey everyone. While the season is winding down, Don Ramsey and I had an interesting discussion this past weekend. Am wondering what the general consensus is.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>First, let me state, judges are human and I understand that. Also, many judges don't know the exact wording of many rules, I understant that also.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Soooo</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Will a pilot score higher if they follow the letter of the law and wind correct perfectly, but fly an ugly manuever, or wind correct a little and let the plane look "prettier" in a manuever?????</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Lets use the first maneuver in the Master's sequence after entering the box. Stall turn 1 1/4 rolls up, 3/4 rolls down exit inverted. On a strong wind day, not pulling to vertical to maintain the line doesn't look to bad (we expect that) the 1 1/4 rolls in centered, looking good, appropriate rudder is given to maintain a straight vertical line (again expected and usually doesn't require much as we are at full throttle), the stall goes off without a hitch, but do to lack of airspeed we cant the fuse and hold rudder into the wind letting the fuse lean at a 45degree angle to maintain a straight line (this is the part I'm curious about) until the 3/4 roll and using a little down elevator to hold the line after the roll (again expected but not ugly)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Everything about this manuever is done and doesn't detract from the overall appearance of the manuever except the down line after the stall, which is simply "UGLY"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Just curious what everyone says. Again, I know what the rules say, and am not interested in a rule book interpretation, but what do you think about scoring better vs worse???</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Thanx</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>ed</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
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