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<DIV>Glen,</DIV>
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<DIV>I flew the Master 07 the first time today. My mouse was very dry after I finish each fly. This new sequence is very challenging. Clearly it is going to be fun for the judges to judge this one in cross wing conditions. Clearly without wind correction is going to look ugly. </DIV>
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<DIV>Vicent Bortone </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">-------------- Original message -------------- <BR>From: "Glen Watson" <gwatson11@houston.rr.com> <BR>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Wind correct or not to wind correct which would you score higher?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I realize ED started this thread asking not for a rules interpretation. However after reading a few of the comments in response to ED’s question I am wondering whether judges consider wind correction a requirement or an option when scoring maneuvers. Or scoring someone differently who flies with slight wind correction vs. a necessary exaggerated wind correction needed to preserve the shape of a given maneuver. Truth be told I began thinking about this during the Master’s final at this year’s NATS where we competed in challenging wind conditions.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sooo…what does the rule book say about wind correction and track?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The following was clipped from the current AMA rule book.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">(Track) The trajectory or flight path of the center of gravity of the model with respect to fixed ground reference.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">(Wind correction) An alteration of aircraft attitude made for the purpose of compensating for the effects of wind drift on the track of the model. All maneuvers in RC Aerobatics are required to be wind corrected in such a way as to preserve the shape of the maneuver in the track of the model as described<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">(Precision) Grading of maneuver precision will be based on how well the model tracks the shape of the individual maneuver as described in section E, Description of Maneuvers. All maneuvers in RC Aerobatics are required to be wind corrected in such a manner as to preserve the shape and symmetry of the maneuver in the track of the model. All straight lines, both horizontal and vertical, will be graded on the track projected by the model. Changes in attitude of the model to maintain a straight track will not be reason for downgrading the maneuver.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The rules are very clear in this regard that wind correction is a requirement.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Now let’s consider the Diamond Eight in the 06 Masters sequence. If the 45 degree legs are flown without wind correction it’s impossible to present the rolling crossover points at center. Instead the entire maneuver would be displaced some distance to the down wind direction. I ask if flown without wind how would it be possible to score higher than someone who flew with wind correction if the other elements of the maneuver where flown properly by both pilots i.e. radii, rolls, line length etc?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">In the 07 Masters sequence there is the figure M. Like the Diamond Eight the maneuver center (center radius) is affected dramatically if flown without wind correction. If the first vertical line up and down are flown with no or less than necessary amounts of wind correction the center radius and entry radius end up being different sizes to adjust for centering. Whoohoo figure M can’t wait! <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Glen<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Ed Deaver<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Saturday, September 30, 2006 1:08 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:PersonName w:st="on">NSRCA Mailing List</st1:PersonName><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Wind correction</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Thanx everyone. this is the discussion I was hoping for. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">There actually isn't a correct answer, just opinions to my original question.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Ed<BR><BR><B><I><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-STYLE: italic">Earl Haury <ehaury@houston.rr.com></SPAN></I></B> wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">It seems that crosswind conditions are of most concern to many, they shouldn't be. Keep the nose into the wind a "nearly appropriate" amount provides a "show" of wind compensation, while a little drift off plane is difficult for the judge to detect. Probably the need to apply the nose to the wind attitude during rolls creates problems for some.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The real difficult wind is that strong and parallel to the runway - this will really mess with geometry, ground speed, and airspeed. The speed issues have an effect control effectiveness, making it difficult to maintain radii / roll rates / etc. </SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">A view of Ed's issue might look like this: At a recent meet the wind was strong and mostly parallel to the runway, let me tell you about the "squares" I judged in Masters and Advanced. Those starting at the bottom were generally entered with proper windage and attitude (to the wind) increased as the aircraft slowed (vertical track), then the radius to the next "horizontal" leg was 90 deg <STRONG><B><FONT face=Arial><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial">in attitude - </SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG>leaving the radius track short several degrees and the "horizontal line" climbing (a point or two gone), the radius to the downline varied from enough to get vertical with no wind compensation in attitude (more than 90 deg radius) to another 90 deg attitude radius (now the downline attitude is downwind) - really bad for the track (and another point or two gone) - very rarely did anyone compensate for the wi
nd <STRONG><B><FONT face=Arial><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial">at all </SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG>on the downline, finally the radius to a level horizontal line (most got level) required a more than 90 deg track radius (another point gone) - so depending on severity of wind compensation errors this thing is 4 - 7 before any consideration of other factors. A rarer version was flown fast with no wind compensation on the upline - track off a little ( 1/2 - 1 point gone), top radius OK and top line horizontal - likewise radius to downline, downline flown fast with no wind compensation - track is off (another point gone), bottom radius is 90+ deg to get to horizontal (another point) and this thing scores maybe 7 to 71/2 before other factors.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Now the guy with the 4 compares his score with the guy with the 71/2 - gee, <STRONG><B><FONT face=Arial><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial">wind correction doesn't pay</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG>! Be <STRONG><B><FONT face=Arial><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial">very aware</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG> of the fact that both have significant downgrades before any other errors might be downgraded - not many squares are really square, rolls often aren't centered or the same rate, etc. and all drive the score lower. Compensate for the wind properly and the maneuver score goes <STRONG><B><FONT face=Arial><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial">up 2 1/2 to 6 points</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG> in this example! </SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The point is that properly executed wind compensation pays big rewards! (Note also that I use the term "compensation" instead of "correction", the latter infers an error is already made and fixed (gotta be a downgrade there somewhere), while compensation infers the wind forces are accommodated to ensure proper geometry!</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Earl</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A title=drykert2@rochester.rr.com href="mailto:drykert2@rochester.rr.com">Del K. Rykert</A> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Saturday, September 30, 2006 9:18 AM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Wind correction<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Ed...</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> The correct answer by my definition is depends on the judge unfortunately.. If you are flying in front of me I subtract from 10 depending on the severity of flaws I catch. Ugly versus pretty are not primary judging factors on the judging priorities. So when you choose to fly your maneuver pretty and your elbow competitor fly's it by the book don't ask me why you received the lower score.. grin..</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Del</st1:place></st1:State> <BR> nsrca - 473</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A title=divesplat@yahoo.com href="mailto:divesplat@yahoo.com">Ed Deaver</A> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Friday, September 29, 2006 9:13 PM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> [NSRCA-discussion] Wind correction<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Hey everyone. While the season is winding down, Don Ramsey and I had an interesting discussion this past weekend. Am wondering what the general consensus is.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">First, let me state, judges are human and I understand that. Also, many judges don't know the exact wording of many rules, I understant that also.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Soooo<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Will a pilot score higher if they follow the letter of the law and wind correct perfectly, but fly an ugly manuever, or wind correct a little and let the plane look "prettier" in a manuever?????<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Lets use the first maneuver in the Master's sequence after entering the box. Stall turn 1 1/4 rolls up, 3/4 rolls down exit inverted. On a strong wind day, not pulling to vertical to maintain the line doesn't look to bad (we expect that) the 1 1/4 rolls in centered, looking good, appropriate rudder is given to maintain a straight vertical line (again expected and usually doesn't require much as we are at full throttle), the stall goes off without a hitch, but do to lack of airspeed we cant the fuse and hold rudder into the wind letting the fuse lean at a 45degree angle to maintain a straight line (this is the part I'm curious about) until the 3/4 roll and using a little down elevator to hold the line after the roll (again expected but not ugly)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Everything about this manuever is done and doesn't detract from the overall appearance of the manuever except the down line after the stall, which is simply "UGLY"<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Just curious what everyone says. Again, I know what the rules say, and am not interested in a rule book interpretation, but what do you think about scoring better vs worse???<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Thanx<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">ed<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></body></html>