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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I think I will start a list of "Patern Proverbs"
with that one!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>John Ferrell W8CCW<BR>"My Competition is not my
enemy"<BR><A href="http://DixieNC.US">http://DixieNC.US</A><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=DaveL322@comcast.net
href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, September 12, 2006 10:07
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Trimming
question.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Yes.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Yes.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Depends on the design.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>IMHO, the "best" designs and "best" setups are more tolerant (relatively)
of changes in weather and airspeed. Endless combinations and compromises
as many things in pattern.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Regards,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Dave</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">--------------
Original message -------------- <BR>From: colin chariandy <<A
href="mailto:cchariandy@yahoo.ca">cchariandy@yahoo.ca</A>> <BR>
<DIV>I tend to agree. So what's the best way to neutralize that effect? Is
there a way to set-up the airplane so that the trim changes as the
airspeed/air density changes will be minimized? </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I get the feeling that there are set-ups that are conditions specific
and those that are more versatile.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Which are the key variables for lift/pitch and airspeed....cg, wing
incidence, tail incidence, engine thrust line, aileron droop etc.? </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I'm going to play with cg and aileron droop this weekend. I assume it
will be a bit cold...it is Canada after all.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Colin.</DIV><BR><BR><B><I>Amar Shan <shan@telus.net></I></B>
wrote:
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<DIV><SPAN class=876030100-12092006>Tom had exactly the right idea when he
thought it was an "air density" thing.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=876030100-12092006></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=876030100-12092006>To begin with, the air density *does*
change substantially in going from 15C to 30C. It's the
equivalent of moving from sea level to 1700 feet
altitude!</SPAN></DIV><SPAN class=876030100-12092006>
<DIV><BR>The second thing to realize is that the plane's air speed
(indicated air speed to the full scale pilots out there) changes with
changing air density. In other words, if the plane<SPAN
class=876030100-12092006> appears to be moving at the same speed on a 15C
day as a 30C day FROM THE GROUND, the airflow over the wings is actually
much greater on the cooler (15C) day.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=876030100-12092006></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=876030100-12092006><FONT face="Lucida Sans">Now, when you
trim a plane for flight, you trim for its indicated air speed (ie, the
amount of airflow over its wings). If you are flying slower, you
need a greater AOA, of course. When you take a plane trimmed for 30C
weather, and fly it on a 15C day, the airflow over the wings is much
greater - hence, you need much less AOA, and you have to trim with more
down elevator.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=876030100-12092006></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=876030100-12092006><FONT
face="Lucida Sans">Cheers,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=876030100-12092006></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=876030100-12092006><FONT
face="Lucida Sans">Amar</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Ed
Miller<BR><B>Sent:</B> September 11, 2006 4:54 PM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA
Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Trimming
question.<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>I have the same issue with the EMC I'm
flying. At summers 90+ temperatures using a Futaba 9ZAP radio I
have 2% up elevator with right rudder and 4% up with left
rudder for straight knife edge flight. I noticed when the
temps cooled to the 70's lately I had to put 2 % down elevator
trim in to fly straight and level at horizontal flight cruise
rpm.. Because of that touch of down elevator trim in cool
weather, I end up with a slight push to the belly in knife edge in both
directions. Plane has the DEPS system installed. I think
what is happening is the difference in growth between the
fiberglass/wood fuse and carbon fiber pushrods is causing the
slight elevator trim change during the temperature change which affects
the knife edge flight. Or maybe the cooler denser air requires
less AOA in the wing. I don't see how enabling the trim function
in the rudder to elevator mix will fix this as th! e rudde r is the
master channel. Unless I misunderstand, only a rudder trim
change would effect the elevator movement in the mix. I'm open for
suggestions...........</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>TIA.....Ed M. </FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=trexlesh@msn.com href="mailto:trexlesh@msn.com">Rex
LESHER</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, September 11, 2006
6:08 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Trimming question.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><!--[gte IE 5]><?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->
<DIV
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY: Lucida Sans">
<DIV>actually, I think I confused myself... I meant to
say, all offset will be based from the current trim setting, not from
the original setup position....</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A
title=mailto:trexlesh@msn.com href="mailto:trexlesh@msn.com">Rex
LESHER</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing
List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, September 11,
2006 3:02 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Trimming question.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><!--[gte IE 5]><?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->
<DIV>
<DIV>Just curious.... what radio are you using? Do you
have mixes set up for roll coupling? If so, do you
have the trims set to "active" in the mixes? If not, this
could be the reason for the pitching. Without active trim in
the mixes, all offset will be based from the original servo position
in setup, not from the current flying position after the trim was
moved.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Rex</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A
title=mailto:Tom.Koenig@actewagl.com.au
href="mailto:Tom.Koenig@actewagl.com.au">Koenig, Tom</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing
List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, September 11,
2006 2:42 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Trimming question.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=573513321-11092006><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff>All-Dean,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=573513321-11092006><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=573513321-11092006><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff>I think you could be onto something there. I
like to fly on the edge of nose heavy, and I could sympathize with
Colin. My Synergy exhibits almost the same tendencies. It is not a
heavy plane at 4.7 kg, but the CG is forward. Hmmmmmmm-you boys
have me thinking again. I notice it biggest when travelling as
every field I go to is at lower altitude. The biggest and
costliest time was during the Trans Tasman comp in New Zealand-it
was like flying through soup!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=573513321-11092006><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=573513321-11092006><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff>I have always assumed it was an air density thing. I
have experienced exactly what Colin describes.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=573513321-11092006><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=573513321-11092006><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff>Tom</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of
</B>Dean Pappas<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, 12 September 2006 3:36
AM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Trimming question.<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=571581117-11092006><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hi
Colin,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=571581117-11092006><FONT face=Arial size=2>By any
chance, is your plane relatively heavy, have a particularly high
wing loading, propped to fly very slowly, or set up
relatively nose-heavy?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=571581117-11092006><FONT face=Arial size=2>The
reason I ask is that back in the late eighties, I clipped the
wings of one of my early Turnaround
designs </FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=571581117-11092006><FONT
face=Arial size=2>in order to fly faster.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=571581117-11092006><SPAN
class=571581117-11092006><FONT face=Arial size=2>This was back
when we were in the middle of a wild overcorrection from flying
slow and small in this country to flying fast, fast, fast! Then
things started to settle down.</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=571581117-11092006><FONT face=Arial
size=2>Actually, I clipped it twice, once from 68" span to 64" and
then to 60. I should have left the plane at 64" span. When I
made the second clip, the plane developed </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=571581117-11092006><FONT face=Arial size=2>almost
the same </FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=571581117-11092006><FONT
face=Arial size=2>symptom you described. It pulled to the canopy
in the vertical down line when the elevator was trimmed for a hot
day.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=571581117-11092006><FONT face=Arial size=2>It
also looked like it flew droopy-drawered (tail low) on hot days. I
moved the CG back until the elevators looked like they were in
exactly the same spot, and lived with what little was
left.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=571581117-11092006><FONT face=Arial
size=2>There was no suitable electronic fix back then, with
either a Futaba PCM 512 or a JR PCM9.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=571581117-11092006><FONT face=Arial size=2>My
hypothesis is that the sensitivity to air density happens when the
plane requires lots of "up" trim to fly. What do the elevators
look like when trimmed on a hot day?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=571581117-11092006><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=571581117-11092006><FONT face=Arial
size=2>later,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">Dean Pappas</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Sr. Design Engineer</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Kodeos Communications</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">111 Corporate Blvd.</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">South Plainfield, N.J. 07080</FONT>
<BR><FONT face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-7817 phone</FONT>
<BR><FONT face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-2392 fax</FONT>
<BR><FONT face="Times New Roman">d.pappas@kodeos.com</FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of
</B>colin chariandy<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, September 11, 2006
9:53 AM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Trimming question.<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>No, I'm using the MK bellcrank.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If the problem was only related to the length of the
pushrods, then when I re-trim the knife edge performance should
return to normal. Thats not the case. The plane pushes to the
bottom in the cold and is dead straight on hot days.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Colin.<BR><BR><B><I>Lance Van Nostrand
<patterndude@comcast.net></I></B> wrote:</DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>My guess is you have the deps
system. carbon fiber does not have as much shrinkage as
the rest of your plane.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>--Lance</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
</DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=mailto:cchariandy@yahoo.ca
href="mailto:cchariandy@yahoo.ca">colin chariandy</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing
List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, September
10, 2006 11:09 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B>
[NSRCA-discussion] Trimming question.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I noticed recently that I need to add a bit of down
trim as the air temperature drops....maybe as much as 4
beebs going from 30+ days to 15C. That upsets the knife edge
trim on the aircraft. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Is that normal, or do I have something set a bit
marginally, like CG or wing incidence?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Do you guys typically have a "cold weather set-up"
?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Colin.</DIV>
<DIV>
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