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<DIV><SPAN class=422481714-12092006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Hi
Colin,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=422481714-12092006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>All
the things I listed (high wing loading, forward CG and slow prop) tend to
maximize the amount of trim force necessary to keep the plane flying level in
the hands-off condition.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=422481714-12092006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>In
your case, only one of these is true: a slow prop. Now if you trimmed in the
cool, and propped faster in the heat, my connjecture is that the elevator trim
would stay in the same place, hot or cold.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=422481714-12092006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>The
problem is that this probably doesn't give you what you want. My Stunt flying
buddies have a name for this trim compromise issue: they call it trimming with
airspeed!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=422481714-12092006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>When I
say the same place I don't mean on the transmitter, instead I mean the elevator
compared to the stab. With the clip-winged old MAYA 2, I was already trying to
fly faster,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=422481714-12092006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>so the
CG shift aft worked well enough for me.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=422481714-12092006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>By the
way, Colin, what airplane is this?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=422481714-12092006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=422481714-12092006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>later,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman">Dean Pappas</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Sr. Design Engineer</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Kodeos Communications</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">111 Corporate Blvd.</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">South Plainfield, N.J. 07080</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-7817 phone</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-2392 fax</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">d.pappas@kodeos.com</FONT> </P>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of </B>colin
chariandy<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, September 12, 2006 10:01 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
NSRCA Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Trimming
question.<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>I tend to agree. So what's the best way to neutralize that effect? Is
there a way to set-up the airplane so that the trim changes as the
airspeed/air density changes will be minimized? </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I get the feeling that there are set-ups that are conditions specific and
those that are more versatile.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Which are the key variables for lift/pitch and airspeed....cg, wing
incidence, tail incidence, engine thrust line, aileron droop etc.? </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I'm going to play with cg and aileron droop this weekend. I assume it
will be a bit cold...it is Canada after all.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Colin.</DIV><BR><BR><B><I>Amar Shan <shan@telus.net></I></B> wrote:
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<DIV><SPAN class=876030100-12092006>Tom had exactly the right idea when he
thought it was an "air density" thing.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=876030100-12092006></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=876030100-12092006>To begin with, the air density *does*
change substantially in going from 15C to 30C. It's the
equivalent of moving from sea level to 1700 feet altitude!</SPAN></DIV><SPAN
class=876030100-12092006>
<DIV><BR>The second thing to realize is that the plane's air speed
(indicated air speed to the full scale pilots out there) changes with
changing air density. In other words, if the plane<SPAN
class=876030100-12092006> appears to be moving at the same speed on a 15C
day as a 30C day FROM THE GROUND, the airflow over the wings is actually
much greater on the cooler (15C) day.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=876030100-12092006></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=876030100-12092006><FONT face="Lucida Sans">Now, when you
trim a plane for flight, you trim for its indicated air speed (ie, the
amount of airflow over its wings). If you are flying slower, you need
a greater AOA, of course. When you take a plane trimmed for 30C
weather, and fly it on a 15C day, the airflow over the wings is much greater
- hence, you need much less AOA, and you have to trim with more down
elevator.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=876030100-12092006></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=876030100-12092006><FONT
face="Lucida Sans">Cheers,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=876030100-12092006></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=876030100-12092006><FONT
face="Lucida Sans">Amar</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Ed
Miller<BR><B>Sent:</B> September 11, 2006 4:54 PM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA
Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Trimming
question.<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>I have the same issue with the EMC I'm flying.
At summers 90+ temperatures using a Futaba 9ZAP radio I have 2% up
elevator with right rudder and 4% up with left rudder for straight
knife edge flight. I noticed when the temps cooled to the
70's lately I had to put 2 % down elevator trim in to fly
straight and level at horizontal flight cruise rpm.. Because of
that touch of down elevator trim in cool weather, I end up with a slight
push to the belly in knife edge in both directions. Plane has the
DEPS system installed. I think what is happening is the difference
in growth between the fiberglass/wood fuse and carbon fiber pushrods is
causing the slight elevator trim change during the temperature change
which affects the knife edge flight. Or maybe the cooler denser air
requires less AOA in the wing. I don't see how enabling the trim
function in the rudder to elevator mix will fix this as the rudder is the
master channel. Unless I misunderstand, only a rudder trim
change would effect the elevator movement in the mix. I'm open for
suggestions...........</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>TIA.....Ed M. </FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=trexlesh@msn.com href="mailto:trexlesh@msn.com">Rex LESHER</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, September 11, 2006
6:08 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Trimming question.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><!--[gte IE 5]><?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->
<DIV
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY: Lucida Sans">
<DIV>actually, I think I confused myself... I meant to say,
all offset will be based from the current trim setting, not from the
original setup position....</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A
title=mailto:trexlesh@msn.com href="mailto:trexlesh@msn.com">Rex
LESHER</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, September 11, 2006
3:02 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Trimming question.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><!--[gte IE 5]><?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->
<DIV>
<DIV>Just curious.... what radio are you using? Do you
have mixes set up for roll coupling? If so, do you
have the trims set to "active" in the mixes? If not, this could
be the reason for the pitching. Without active trim in the
mixes, all offset will be based from the original servo position in
setup, not from the current flying position after the trim was
moved.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Rex</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A
title=mailto:Tom.Koenig@actewagl.com.au
href="mailto:Tom.Koenig@actewagl.com.au">Koenig, Tom</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing
List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, September 11,
2006 2:42 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Trimming question.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=573513321-11092006><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff>All-Dean,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=573513321-11092006><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=573513321-11092006><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff>I think you could be onto something there. I
like to fly on the edge of nose heavy, and I could sympathize with
Colin. My Synergy exhibits almost the same tendencies. It is not a
heavy plane at 4.7 kg, but the CG is forward. Hmmmmmmm-you boys have
me thinking again. I notice it biggest when travelling as every
field I go to is at lower altitude. The biggest and costliest time
was during the Trans Tasman comp in New Zealand-it was like flying
through soup!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=573513321-11092006><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=573513321-11092006><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff>I have always assumed it was an air density thing. I
have experienced exactly what Colin describes.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=573513321-11092006><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=573513321-11092006><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff>Tom</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of
</B>Dean Pappas<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, 12 September 2006 3:36
AM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Trimming question.<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=571581117-11092006><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hi
Colin,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=571581117-11092006><FONT face=Arial size=2>By any
chance, is your plane relatively heavy, have a particularly high
wing loading, propped to fly very slowly, or set up relatively
nose-heavy?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=571581117-11092006><FONT face=Arial size=2>The
reason I ask is that back in the late eighties, I clipped the wings
of one of my early Turnaround designs </FONT></SPAN><SPAN
class=571581117-11092006><FONT face=Arial size=2>in order to fly
faster.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=571581117-11092006><SPAN
class=571581117-11092006><FONT face=Arial size=2>This was back when
we were in the middle of a wild overcorrection from flying slow and
small in this country to flying fast, fast, fast! Then things
started to settle down.</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=571581117-11092006><FONT face=Arial
size=2>Actually, I clipped it twice, once from 68" span to 64" and
then to 60. I should have left the plane at 64" span. When I
made the second clip, the plane developed </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=571581117-11092006><FONT face=Arial size=2>almost
the same </FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=571581117-11092006><FONT
face=Arial size=2>symptom you described. It pulled to the canopy in
the vertical down line when the elevator was trimmed for a hot
day.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=571581117-11092006><FONT face=Arial size=2>It also
looked like it flew droopy-drawered (tail low) on hot days. I moved
the CG back until the elevators looked like they were in exactly the
same spot, and lived with what little was left.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=571581117-11092006><FONT face=Arial
size=2>There was no suitable electronic fix back then, with
either a Futaba PCM 512 or a JR PCM9.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=571581117-11092006><FONT face=Arial size=2>My
hypothesis is that the sensitivity to air density happens when the
plane requires lots of "up" trim to fly. What do the elevators look
like when trimmed on a hot day?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=571581117-11092006><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=571581117-11092006><FONT face=Arial
size=2>later,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">Dean Pappas</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Sr. Design Engineer</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Kodeos Communications</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">111 Corporate Blvd.</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">South Plainfield, N.J. 07080</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-7817 phone</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-2392 fax</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">d.pappas@kodeos.com</FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of
</B>colin chariandy<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, September 11, 2006
9:53 AM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Trimming question.<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>No, I'm using the MK bellcrank.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If the problem was only related to the length of the
pushrods, then when I re-trim the knife edge performance should
return to normal. Thats not the case. The plane pushes to the
bottom in the cold and is dead straight on hot days.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Colin.<BR><BR><B><I>Lance Van Nostrand
<patterndude@comcast.net></I></B> wrote:</DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>My guess is you have the deps
system. carbon fiber does not have as much shrinkage as
the rest of your plane.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>--Lance</FONT></DIV>
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style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
</DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=mailto:cchariandy@yahoo.ca
href="mailto:cchariandy@yahoo.ca">colin chariandy</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing
List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, September
10, 2006 11:09 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B>
[NSRCA-discussion] Trimming question.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I noticed recently that I need to add a bit of down trim
as the air temperature drops....maybe as much as 4 beebs going
from 30+ days to 15C. That upsets the knife edge trim on the
aircraft. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Is that normal, or do I have something set a bit
marginally, like CG or wing incidence?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Do you guys typically have a "cold weather set-up"
?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Colin.</DIV>
<DIV>
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