<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2963" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY id=MailContainerBody
style="PADDING-LEFT: 10px; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; BORDER-TOP-STYLE: none; PADDING-TOP: 15px; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: Lucida Sans; BORDER-RIGHT-STYLE: none; BORDER-LEFT-STYLE: none; TEXT-DECORATION: none; BORDER-BOTTOM-STYLE: none"
bgColor=#ffffff leftMargin=0 topMargin=0 acc_role="text" CanvasTabStop="true"
name="Compose message area">
<DIV><SPAN class=876030100-12092006>Tom had exactly the right idea when he
thought it was an "air density" thing.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=876030100-12092006></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=876030100-12092006>To begin with, the air density *does* change
substantially in going from 15C to 30C. It's the equivalent of
moving from sea level to 1700 feet altitude!</SPAN></DIV><SPAN
class=876030100-12092006>
<DIV><BR>The second thing to realize is that the plane's air speed (indicated
air speed to the full scale pilots out there) changes with changing air
density. In other words, if the plane<SPAN class=876030100-12092006>
appears to be moving at the same speed on a 15C day as a 30C day FROM THE
GROUND, the airflow over the wings is actually much greater on the cooler (15C)
day.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=876030100-12092006></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=876030100-12092006><FONT face="Lucida Sans">Now, when you trim
a plane for flight, you trim for its indicated air speed (ie, the amount of
airflow over its wings). If you are flying slower, you need a greater AOA,
of course. When you take a plane trimmed for 30C weather, and fly it on a
15C day, the airflow over the wings is much greater - hence, you need much less
AOA, and you have to trim with more down elevator.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=876030100-12092006></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=876030100-12092006><FONT
face="Lucida Sans">Cheers,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=876030100-12092006></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=876030100-12092006><FONT
face="Lucida Sans">Amar</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Ed
Miller<BR><B>Sent:</B> September 11, 2006 4:54 PM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing
List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Trimming
question.<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>I have the same issue with the EMC I'm flying. At
summers 90+ temperatures using a Futaba 9ZAP radio I have 2% up elevator with
right rudder and 4% up with left rudder for straight knife edge
flight. I noticed when the temps cooled to the 70's lately I had
to put 2 % down elevator trim in to fly straight and level at horizontal
flight cruise rpm.. Because of that touch of down elevator trim in
cool weather, I end up with a slight push to the belly in knife edge in both
directions. Plane has the DEPS system installed. I think what is
happening is the difference in growth between the fiberglass/wood fuse and
carbon fiber pushrods is causing the slight elevator trim change during
the temperature change which affects the knife edge flight. Or maybe the
cooler denser air requires less AOA in the wing. I don't see how
enabling the trim function in the rudder to elevator mix will fix this as the
rudder is the master channel. Unless I misunderstand, only a
rudder trim change would effect the elevator movement in the mix. I'm
open for suggestions...........</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>TIA.....Ed M. </FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=trexlesh@msn.com href="mailto:trexlesh@msn.com">Rex LESHER</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, September 11, 2006 6:08
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Trimming question.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><!--[gte IE 5]><?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->
<DIV
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY: Lucida Sans">
<DIV>actually, I think I confused myself... I meant to say, all
offset will be based from the current trim setting, not from the original
setup position....</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A
title=mailto:trexlesh@msn.com href="mailto:trexlesh@msn.com">Rex
LESHER</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, September 11, 2006 3:02
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Trimming question.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><!--[gte IE 5]><?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->
<DIV>
<DIV>Just curious.... what radio are you using? Do you have
mixes set up for roll coupling? If so, do you have the
trims set to "active" in the mixes? If not, this could be the reason
for the pitching. Without active trim in the mixes, all offset will
be based from the original servo position in setup, not from the current
flying position after the trim was moved.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Rex</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A
title=mailto:Tom.Koenig@actewagl.com.au
href="mailto:Tom.Koenig@actewagl.com.au">Koenig, Tom</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, September 11, 2006
2:42 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Trimming question.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=573513321-11092006><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff>All-Dean,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=573513321-11092006><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=573513321-11092006><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff>I think you could be onto something there. I like to
fly on the edge of nose heavy, and I could sympathize with Colin. My
Synergy exhibits almost the same tendencies. It is not a heavy plane at
4.7 kg, but the CG is forward. Hmmmmmmm-you boys have me thinking again.
I notice it biggest when travelling as every field I go to is at lower
altitude. The biggest and costliest time was during the Trans Tasman
comp in New Zealand-it was like flying through soup!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=573513321-11092006><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=573513321-11092006><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff>I have always assumed it was an air density thing. I have
experienced exactly what Colin describes.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=573513321-11092006><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=573513321-11092006><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff>Tom</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of
</B>Dean Pappas<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, 12 September 2006 3:36
AM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Trimming question.<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=571581117-11092006><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hi
Colin,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=571581117-11092006><FONT face=Arial size=2>By any
chance, is your plane relatively heavy, have a particularly high wing
loading, propped to fly very slowly, or set up relatively
nose-heavy?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=571581117-11092006><FONT face=Arial size=2>The reason I
ask is that back in the late eighties, I clipped the wings of one
of my early Turnaround designs </FONT></SPAN><SPAN
class=571581117-11092006><FONT face=Arial size=2>in order to fly
faster.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=571581117-11092006><SPAN class=571581117-11092006><FONT
face=Arial size=2>This was back when we were in the middle of a wild
overcorrection from flying slow and small in this country to flying
fast, fast, fast! Then things started to settle
down.</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=571581117-11092006><FONT face=Arial size=2>Actually, I
clipped it twice, once from 68" span to 64" and then to 60. I
should have left the plane at 64" span. When I made the second clip, the
plane developed </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=571581117-11092006><FONT face=Arial size=2>almost
the same </FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=571581117-11092006><FONT
face=Arial size=2>symptom you described. It pulled to the canopy in the
vertical down line when the elevator was trimmed for a hot
day.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=571581117-11092006><FONT face=Arial size=2>It also
looked like it flew droopy-drawered (tail low) on hot days. I moved the
CG back until the elevators looked like they were in exactly the same
spot, and lived with what little was left.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=571581117-11092006><FONT face=Arial
size=2>There was no suitable electronic fix back then, with either
a Futaba PCM 512 or a JR PCM9.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=571581117-11092006><FONT face=Arial size=2>My
hypothesis is that the sensitivity to air density happens when the plane
requires lots of "up" trim to fly. What do the elevators look like when
trimmed on a hot day?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=571581117-11092006><FONT face=Arial
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=571581117-11092006><FONT face=Arial
size=2>later,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman">Dean Pappas</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Sr. Design Engineer</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Kodeos Communications</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">111 Corporate Blvd.</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">South Plainfield, N.J. 07080</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-7817 phone</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-2392 fax</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">d.pappas@kodeos.com</FONT> </P>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of
</B>colin chariandy<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, September 11, 2006 9:53
AM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Trimming question.<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>No, I'm using the MK bellcrank.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If the problem was only related to the length of the pushrods,
then when I re-trim the knife edge performance should return to
normal. Thats not the case. The plane pushes to the bottom in the cold
and is dead straight on hot days.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Colin.<BR><BR><B><I>Lance Van Nostrand
<patterndude@comcast.net></I></B> wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2963" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>My guess is you have the deps
system. carbon fiber does not have as much shrinkage as the
rest of your plane.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>--Lance</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=mailto:cchariandy@yahoo.ca
href="mailto:cchariandy@yahoo.ca">colin chariandy</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing
List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, September 10,
2006 11:09 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [NSRCA-discussion]
Trimming question.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I noticed recently that I need to add a bit of down trim as
the air temperature drops....maybe as much as 4 beebs going from
30+ days to 15C. That upsets the knife edge trim on the aircraft.
</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Is that normal, or do I have something set a bit marginally,
like CG or wing incidence?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Do you guys typically have a "cold weather set-up" ?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Colin.</DIV>
<DIV>
<HR SIZE=1>
<A
title=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=40705/*http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca
href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=40705/*http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca"><B>All
new Yahoo! Mail - </B></A>
<HR SIZE=1>
Get a sneak peak at messages with a handy reading pane.
<DIV>
<HR>
<DIV></DIV>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing
list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing
list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<P>
<HR SIZE=1>
<A
title=http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=40705/*http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca
href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=40705/*http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca"><B>All
new Yahoo! Mail </B></A>
<HR SIZE=1>
Get news delivered. Enjoy RSS feeds right on your Mail
page.</BLOCKQUOTE>
<TABLE>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD bgColor=#ffffff><FONT
color=#000000>************************************************************************<BR>*PLEASE
NOTE* This email and any attachments may<BR>be confidential. If
received in error, please delete all <BR>copies and advise the
sender. The reproduction or <BR>dissemination of this email or its
attachments is <BR>prohibited without the consent of the
sender.<BR><BR>WARNING RE VIRUSES: Our computer systems
sweep<BR>outgoing email to guard against viruses, but no warranty
<BR>is given that this email or its attachments are virus free.
<BR>Before opening or using attachments, please check for
<BR>viruses. Our liability is limited to the re-supply of any
<BR>affected attachments.<BR><BR>Any views expressed in this
message are those of the <BR>individual sender, except where the
sender expressly,<BR>and with authority, states them to be the
views of the
<BR>organisation.<BR>************************************************************************<BR></FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing
list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing
list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing
list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>