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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Nat, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The Funtana does not snap worth a flip. The
whole wing was designed for real slow flight. It will fly real slow on
the prop and does not have any bad stall characteristics . It does flat
spins well, blenders and flippy flop maneuvers well.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Wayne G.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=natpenton@centurytel.net href="mailto:natpenton@centurytel.net">Nat
Penton</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, September 10, 2006 4:27
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Aero
design question</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Tom</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>When you mentioned the Compensator did you mean
constant thickness root to tip ? My concept on this would be a quick tip
stall, however, the Funtana has this type of wing and appears to fly ok
?? I was wondering if anyone who is familiar with the Hangar Nine Funtana
would comment.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Helical pitch was for conversational
purposes and definitely not a design goal. None of the publications I have,
including Hoerner, discuss aileron design. All, though, have a one
track mind on high lift devices.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>For ailerons, IMO, the Cl along the span should
be about constant to lower the probability of tip stall This would
be constant % chord ( Bob Richards ?).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial
size=2>
Nat</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=Tom.Koenig@actewagl.com.au
href="mailto:Tom.Koenig@actewagl.com.au">Koenig, Tom</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, September 03, 2006 11:45
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Aero
design question</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=255512804-04092006><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff>Ok-now my head is spinning! Maybe I should reword the 'linear
feel' to: 'it just felt better'!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=255512804-04092006><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=255512804-04092006><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff>Please guys keep it coming-I'm learning here!
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=255512804-04092006><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=255512804-04092006><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff>From memory, on the ailerons I ran about 17 or 18% at the
tip and 22-23% inboard. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=255512804-04092006><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff>Then ofcourse there is the wing taper to consider, root to tip
ratio etc etc.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=255512804-04092006><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"><FONT color=#0000ff><SPAN
class=255512804-04092006>Here is something from the past I actually used to
do-don't see these days however. I remember Rhett Millers Compensator ( had
one) and he ran a constant width L.E from root to tip. I think Jim Kimbro
borrowed that for his Deception as well ( had one of those too)-then I
borrowed it when I hacked out my first designs</SPAN>-<SPAN
class=255512804-04092006>seemed to work well. They felt 'locked
in'-might have been something completely else though!! :)
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"><FONT color=#0000ff><SPAN
class=255512804-04092006></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"><FONT color=#0000ff><SPAN
class=255512804-04092006>Anyone know why we thought this worked? What about
those glorious Diamond stabs! :)</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"><FONT color=#0000ff>T<SPAN
class=255512804-04092006>om</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"><FONT color=#0000ff><SPAN
class=255512804-04092006></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"><FONT color=#0000ff><SPAN
class=255512804-04092006></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"><FONT color=#0000ff><SPAN
class=255512804-04092006> </SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Fred
Huber<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, 4 September 2006 2:05 PM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA
Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Aero design
question<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV><FONT size=2>You got the progression backward...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Helical pitch is "steeper" at the root than the tip of
the prop. Since you want the whole prop to go forward 1 inch.. and the
root essentially has little movement it has to be steep to keep up
with the tip's large movement.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>If you want to simulate the same thing with an aileron..
you would have more aileron chord near the root than the tip. This
would inhibit tip-stalls if the wing is constant chord (See the way the
Four Star series does it) </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>For a tapered wing, as is common in Pattern, to get the
"helical" effect you'd need the ailerons to make up 50% or more
of the difference in chord from root to tip. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Depending on aileron deflection angle... a
different % chord ratio from root to tip would be required to achieve
the "helical" incidence(tapered or straight chord wing) For any
given tapered aileron, there will be one deflection angle that comes
closest to producing helical incidence. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>If Helical incidence is the goal.. you'll have to choose
at what percentage of full aileron throw you want to hit helical
incidence... cunch some numbers and then cut the ailerons.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Constant chord ailerons in effect gives more AOA change
at the tip than the root with a tapered wing. (encouraging tip-stalls...
this is why its inadvisable to use flaperon function with a Pattern design
when landing... but spoilerons will help prevent dropping a
wing.)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>But.... it may be a good thing to get the higher AOA
change near the tip... </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>As pointed out... the Sig Four Star uses the tapered
ailerons in a manner which can approach a helical incidence</FONT><FONT
size=2>, so its been tried at least in one design series. Its
probably been tried in a Pattern design at some time... (if not... someone
should try it)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=natpenton@centurytel.net
href="mailto:natpenton@centurytel.net">Nat Penton</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, September 03, 2006
9:31 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Aero design question</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hey Tom</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'm not providing solutions - just
putt'in more wood on the fire. In steady state roll the least drag
position of the ailerons would be constant AOA root to tip. This would
call for the percentage of chord to progress linearly so that it would
be double at the tip vs the mid span position - no different than
helical pitch. </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>A ( severe ?) negative
would occur, though, when the ailerons are initiated, potentially
causing a tip stall.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Martin Simmons provides a curve showing Cl
vs % of chord for the aileron. Going over 20% doesen't get you much
for the dollar - just much more servo wear and tear ( especially with
the 160 <G> ).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>IMO it is not worth the extra work to stop
the ailerons short of the
tip.
Nat</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=Tom.Koenig@actewagl.com.au
href="mailto:Tom.Koenig@actewagl.com.au">Koenig, Tom</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, September 03, 2006
6:46 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Aero design question</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=488440723-03092006><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff>Hi lads,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=488440723-03092006><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=488440723-03092006><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff>This is what I have found to work well on my Merlin
designs. Now,I am ready to be corrected by those much more
knowledgeable than myself-I just do things
empirically!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=488440723-03092006><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=488440723-03092006><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff>I ended up using a percentage of the span of the panel
(60% in my case). I have tried various sizes, but somewhere in the
55-65 percentage area worked well. I also came in from the tip by
30 mm, to get the aileron out of the tip vortex. Now that I am flying
a Synergy with the ailerons running all the way out, I'm not so sure
how much of a difference it makes. Maybe servo life is a bit shorter,
but that is hard to quantify with the YS shaking things to bits
anyway. As far as aileron chord dimension goes, well, I have tried
various sizes there too, and I do use different percentages at the tip
vs inboard aileron. I actually like to run a slightly smaller
percentage at the tip. I felt it to give me a more 'linear' feel to
the aileron. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=488440723-03092006><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff>I also applied this to 'elevator' design. I wanted the
tips of the elevator to be less effective. I felt it helped pull
corners better afterwards, as in this case the inboard section is
doing more of the work. But now I am running a straight elevator
hinge line on the Synergy...............L.O.L</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=488440723-03092006><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=488440723-03092006><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff>It all gets very confusing, and in the end, what does it
all mean in 30 knot cross wind, sun in your eyes and thermals to
boot???</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=488440723-03092006><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=488440723-03092006><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff>Trim as good as possible, burn heaps of fuel ( or charge
them packs) and learn to fly the PIGS!!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=488440723-03092006><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=488440723-03092006><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff>Ofcourse good design helps.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"><FONT color=#0000ff>T<SPAN
class=488440723-03092006>om</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of
</B>Dean Pappas<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, 3 September 2006 4:58
AM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE:
[NSRCA-discussion] Aero design question<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Hi Gang,</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><FONT size=3>The excellent axial rolling
charecteristic of some designs is due to a lot more than where the
inboard end of the ailerons end. Nonetheless, all of my designs used
ailerons that ended far from the fuse! The only downside is that
having a bit of aileron in front of the stab offers a useful
trimming tool: trailing the ailerons up or down will change the
effective stab incidence, and this was a powerful adjustment tool
back when we didn't have plug-in adjustable
"everything".</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>You note Akiba's well trimmed airplanes. There is some smart
design going on there!</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>later,</DIV>
<DIV>
Dean</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>-----Original Message----- <BR><B>From:</B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org on behalf of John
Ferrell <BR><B>Sent:</B> Sat 9/2/2006 7:48 AM <BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA
Mailing List <BR><B>Cc:</B> <BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Aero design question<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I have spent a fair amount of time
considering this situation. I have concluded there is no reason to
take the risk of adding unnecessary turbulence to the
empennage.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>In gentle maneuvering it probably has
little effect. In aggressive maneuvering (think snaps) it likely
leads to inconsistent behavior. Inboard ailerons may contribute
additional available force in 3D maneuvers (hanging on prop?).
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Other related considerations are
aileron shape and the hinging geometry. I also suspect fat
fuselages reduce these effects by dispersing the turbulence over a
greater volume of air.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Just my two cents worth!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>John Ferrell
W8CCW<BR>"My Competition is not my enemy"<BR><A
href="http://DixieNC.US">http://DixieNC.US</A><BR></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
</DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B>
<A title=pentagon.systems@bigpond.com
href="mailto:pentagon.systems@bigpond.com">Peter Pennisi</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'NSRCA Mailing
List'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, September 01,
2006 8:35 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [NSRCA-discussion]
Aero design question</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">My
current model has ailerons which extend a fair way towards the
fuselage (Comp-ARF IMPACT) What effect does the turbulence
coming off the aileron have on the tail plane. I am currently
building another IMPACT (IMHO flies extremely well) which I am
considering to reduce their size by cutting and fixing the
inboard part to the wing in an attempt to clean up the airflow
over the tail plane during rolling maneuvers . The model
does roll well but it could be better.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Am I
barking up the wrong tree – any thoughts!</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Peter
</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P>
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