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<DIV><SPAN class=242395714-05092006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>That
would be some crazy pair of brothers, right?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman">Dean Pappas</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Sr. Design Engineer</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Kodeos Communications</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">111 Corporate Blvd.</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">South Plainfield, N.J. 07080</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-7817 phone</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-2392 fax</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">d.pappas@kodeos.com</FONT> </P>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of </B>John
Ferrell<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, September 05, 2006 10:15 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
NSRCA Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Aero design
question<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Caution, Cynical post....:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>How about just flexing the whole
wing?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I recall someone had success with this approach a
long way back!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>John Ferrell W8CCW<BR>"My Competition is not my
enemy"<BR><A href="http://DixieNC.US">http://DixieNC.US</A><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=jpavlick@idseng.com href="mailto:jpavlick@idseng.com">John
Pavlick</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, September 04, 2006 10:53
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Aero
design question</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=610271002-05092006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Now that sounds like the way to go! Except I think you actually
need 3 servos to do it right. I'm setting up the mix on my 12z
now...</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=610271002-05092006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=610271002-05092006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>
<P><FONT size=2>John Pavlick<BR><A href="http://www.idseng.com"
target=_blank>http://www.idseng.com</A><BR> </FONT>
</P></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of
</B>george w. kennie<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, September 04, 2006 9:55
PM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Aero design question<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>For cryin' out loud, if your going to go to
all that trouble, use two servos per panel at the opposing extremes of
each flexible aileron driving in opposite directions. Now that's HELICAL
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What the heck have you guys been smokin'
?????????????? And I thought I was extreme. Are we in the "Twilight
Zone" here? BGw?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>G.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=patterndude@comcast.net
href="mailto:patterndude@comcast.net">Lance Van Nostrand</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, September 04, 2006
9:05 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Aero design question</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Helical pitch ailerons! Nat, this is
brilliant. Instead of making stiff ailerons, make them to
flex. glue the tip to the wing tip and drive the root end.
Ailerons would work just like a 74x6 propeller.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>--Lance</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=natpenton@centurytel.net
href="mailto:natpenton@centurytel.net">Nat Penton</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, September 03, 2006
9:31 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Aero design question</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hey Tom</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'm not providing solutions - just
putt'in more wood on the fire. In steady state roll the least drag
position of the ailerons would be constant AOA root to tip. This would
call for the percentage of chord to progress linearly so that it would
be double at the tip vs the mid span position - no different than
helical pitch. </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>A ( severe ?) negative
would occur, though, when the ailerons are initiated, potentially
causing a tip stall.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Martin Simmons provides a curve showing
Cl vs % of chord for the aileron. Going over 20% doesen't get you
much for the dollar - just much more servo wear and tear ( especially
with the 160 <G> ).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>IMO it is not worth the extra work to
stop the ailerons short of the
tip.
Nat</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=Tom.Koenig@actewagl.com.au
href="mailto:Tom.Koenig@actewagl.com.au">Koenig, Tom</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing
List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, September 03,
2006 6:46 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Aero design question</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=488440723-03092006><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff>Hi lads,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=488440723-03092006><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=488440723-03092006><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff>This is what I have found to work well on my Merlin
designs. Now,I am ready to be corrected by those much more
knowledgeable than myself-I just do things
empirically!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=488440723-03092006><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=488440723-03092006><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff>I ended up using a percentage of the span of the panel
(60% in my case). I have tried various sizes, but somewhere in the
55-65 percentage area worked well. I also came in from the tip
by 30 mm, to get the aileron out of the tip vortex. Now that I am
flying a Synergy with the ailerons running all the way out, I'm not
so sure how much of a difference it makes. Maybe servo life is a bit
shorter, but that is hard to quantify with the YS shaking things to
bits anyway. As far as aileron chord dimension goes, well, I have
tried various sizes there too, and I do use different percentages at
the tip vs inboard aileron. I actually like to run a slightly
smaller percentage at the tip. I felt it to give me a more 'linear'
feel to the aileron. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=488440723-03092006><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff>I also applied this to 'elevator' design. I wanted the
tips of the elevator to be less effective. I felt it helped pull
corners better afterwards, as in this case the inboard section is
doing more of the work. But now I am running a straight
elevator hinge line on the
Synergy...............L.O.L</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=488440723-03092006><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=488440723-03092006><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff>It all gets very confusing, and in the end, what does
it all mean in 30 knot cross wind, sun in your eyes and
thermals to boot???</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=488440723-03092006><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=488440723-03092006><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff>Trim as good as possible, burn heaps of fuel ( or
charge them packs) and learn to fly the PIGS!!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=488440723-03092006><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=488440723-03092006><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff>Ofcourse good design helps.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"><FONT color=#0000ff>T<SPAN
class=488440723-03092006>om</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of
</B>Dean Pappas<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, 3 September 2006 4:58
AM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE:
[NSRCA-discussion] Aero design question<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Hi Gang,</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><FONT size=3>The excellent axial rolling
charecteristic of some designs is due to a lot more than where the
inboard end of the ailerons end. Nonetheless, all of my designs
used ailerons that ended far from the fuse! The only downside is
that having a bit of aileron in front of the stab offers a useful
trimming tool: trailing the ailerons up or down will change the
effective stab incidence, and this was a powerful adjustment tool
back when we didn't have plug-in adjustable
"everything".</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>You note Akiba's well trimmed airplanes. There is some smart
design going on there!</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>later,</DIV>
<DIV>
Dean</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>-----Original Message----- <BR><B>From:</B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org on behalf
of John Ferrell <BR><B>Sent:</B> Sat 9/2/2006 7:48 AM
<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List <BR><B>Cc:</B>
<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Aero design
question<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I have spent a fair amount of time
considering this situation. I have concluded there is no reason
to take the risk of adding unnecessary turbulence to the
empennage.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>In gentle maneuvering it probably
has little effect. In aggressive maneuvering (think snaps) it
likely leads to inconsistent behavior. Inboard ailerons may
contribute additional available force in 3D maneuvers (hanging
on prop?). </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Other related considerations are
aileron shape and the hinging geometry. I also suspect fat
fuselages reduce these effects by dispersing the turbulence over
a greater volume of air.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Just my two cents
worth!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>John Ferrell
W8CCW<BR>"My Competition is not my enemy"<BR><A
href="http://DixieNC.US">http://DixieNC.US</A><BR></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
</DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A
title=pentagon.systems@bigpond.com
href="mailto:pentagon.systems@bigpond.com">Peter Pennisi</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'NSRCA Mailing
List'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, September
01, 2006 8:35 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B>
[NSRCA-discussion] Aero design question</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">My
current model has ailerons which extend a fair way towards the
fuselage (Comp-ARF IMPACT) What effect does the turbulence
coming off the aileron have on the tail plane. I am currently
building another IMPACT (IMHO flies extremely well) which I am
considering to reduce their size by cutting and fixing the
inboard part to the wing in an attempt to clean up the airflow
over the tail plane during rolling maneuvers . The model
does roll well but it could be better.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Am I
barking up the wrong tree – any thoughts!</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Peter
</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P>
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