<DIV style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;"><DIV>I seem to remember it was a pair of brothers. Nice folks too; if a bit strange.</DIV>
<DIV>randy<BR><BR>--- d.pappas@kodeos.com wrote:<BR><BR>From: "Dean Pappas" <d.pappas@kodeos.com><BR>To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Aero design question<BR>Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 10:58:23 -0400<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">That would be some crazy pair of brothers, right?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">Dean Pappas</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Times New Roman">Sr. Design Engineer</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Times New Roman">Kodeos Communications</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Times New Roman">111 Corporate Blvd.</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Times New Roman">South Plainfield, N.J. 07080</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-7817 phone</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-2392 fax</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Times New Roman">d.pappas@kodeos.com</FONT> </DIV>
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<DIV dir="ltr" align="left"><FONT face="Tahoma" size="2">-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of </B>John Ferrell<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, September 05, 2006 10:15 AM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Aero design question<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial" size="2">Caution, Cynical post....:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial" size="2">How about just flexing the whole wing?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial" size="2">I recall someone had success with this approach a long way back!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial" size="2"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>John Ferrell W8CCW<BR>"My Competition is not my enemy"<BR><A href="http://DixieNC.US">http://DixieNC.US</A><BR></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title="jpavlick@idseng.com">John Pavlick</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, September 04, 2006 10:53 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Aero design question</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">Now that sounds like the way to go! Except I think you actually need 3 servos to do it right. I'm setting up the mix on my 12z now...</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2"></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">
<DIV><FONT size="2">John Pavlick<BR><A href="http://www.idseng.com">http://www.idseng.com</A><BR> </FONT> </DIV></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV dir="ltr" align="left"><FONT face="Tahoma" size="2">-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> <A>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of </B>george w. kennie<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, September 04, 2006 9:55 PM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Aero design question<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial" size="2">For cryin' out loud, if your going to go to all that trouble, use two servos per panel at the opposing extremes of each flexible aileron driving in opposite directions. Now that's HELICAL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What the heck have you guys been smokin' ?????????????? And I thought I was extreme. Are we in the "Twilight Zone" here? BGw?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial" size="2">G.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial" size="2"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial" size="2"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial" size="2"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial" size="2"></FONT> </DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title="patterndude@comcast.net">Lance Van Nostrand</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, September 04, 2006 9:05 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Aero design question</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial" size="2">Helical pitch ailerons! Nat, this is brilliant. Instead of making stiff ailerons, make them to flex. glue the tip to the wing tip and drive the root end. Ailerons would work just like a 74x6 propeller.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial" size="2"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial" size="2">--Lance</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title="natpenton@centurytel.net">Nat Penton</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, September 03, 2006 9:31 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Aero design question</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial" size="2">Hey Tom</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial" size="2">I'm not providing solutions - just putt'in more wood on the fire. In steady state roll the least drag position of the ailerons would be constant AOA root to tip. This would call for the percentage of chord to progress linearly so that it would be double at the tip vs the mid span position - no different than helical pitch. </FONT><FONT face="Arial" size="2">A ( severe ?) negative would occur, though, when the ailerons are initiated, potentially causing a tip stall.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial" size="2"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial" size="2">Martin Simmons provides a curve showing Cl vs % of chord for the aileron. Going over 20% doesen't get you much for the dollar - just much more servo wear and tear ( especially with the 160 <G> ).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial" size="2"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial" size="2">IMO it is not worth the extra work to stop the ailerons short of the tip. Nat</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title="Tom.Koenig@actewagl.com.au">Koenig, Tom</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, September 03, 2006 6:46 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Aero design question</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color="#0000ff">Hi lads,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color="#0000ff"></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color="#0000ff">This is what I have found to work well on my Merlin designs. Now,I am ready to be corrected by those much more knowledgeable than myself-I just do things empirically!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color="#0000ff"></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color="#0000ff">I ended up using a percentage of the span of the panel (60% in my case). I have tried various sizes, but somewhere in the 55-65 percentage area worked well. I also came in from the tip by 30 mm, to get the aileron out of the tip vortex. Now that I am flying a Synergy with the ailerons running all the way out, I'm not so sure how much of a difference it makes. Maybe servo life is a bit shorter, but that is hard to quantify with the YS shaking things to bits anyway. As far as aileron chord dimension goes, well, I have tried various sizes there too, and I do use different percentages at the tip vs inboard aileron. I actually like to run a slightly smaller percentage at the tip. I felt it to give me a more 'linear' feel to the aileron. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color="#0000ff">I also applied this to 'elevator' design. I wanted the tips of the elevator to be less effective. I felt it helped pull corners better afterwards, as in this case the inboard section is doing more of the work. But now I am running a straight elevator hinge line on the Synergy...............L.O.L</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color="#0000ff"></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color="#0000ff">It all gets very confusing, and in the end, what does it all mean in 30 knot cross wind, sun in your eyes and thermals to boot???</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color="#0000ff"></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color="#0000ff">Trim as good as possible, burn heaps of fuel ( or charge them packs) and learn to fly the PIGS!!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color="#0000ff"></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color="#0000ff">Ofcourse good design helps.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color="#0000ff"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"><FONT color="#0000ff">T<SPAN>om</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
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<DIV dir="ltr" align="left"><FONT face="Tahoma" size="2">-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Dean Pappas<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, 3 September 2006 4:58 AM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [NSRCA-discussion] Aero design question<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Hi Gang,</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size="2"><FONT size="3">The excellent axial rolling charecteristic of some designs is due to a lot more than where the inboard end of the ailerons end. Nonetheless, all of my designs used ailerons that ended far from the fuse! The only downside is that having a bit of aileron in front of the stab offers a useful trimming tool: trailing the ailerons up or down will change the effective stab incidence, and this was a powerful adjustment tool back when we didn't have plug-in adjustable "everything".</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>You note Akiba's well trimmed airplanes. There is some smart design going on there!</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>later,</DIV>
<DIV> Dean</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size="2"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size="2"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size="2"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size="2">-----Original Message----- <BR><B>From:</B> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org on behalf of John Ferrell <BR><B>Sent:</B> Sat 9/2/2006 7:48 AM <BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List <BR><B>Cc:</B> <BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Aero design question<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face="Arial" size="2">I have spent a fair amount of time considering this situation. I have concluded there is no reason to take the risk of adding unnecessary turbulence to the empennage.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial" size="2"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial" size="2">In gentle maneuvering it probably has little effect. In aggressive maneuvering (think snaps) it likely leads to inconsistent behavior. Inboard ailerons may contribute additional available force in 3D maneuvers (hanging on prop?). </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial" size="2"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial" size="2">Other related considerations are aileron shape and the hinging geometry. I also suspect fat fuselages reduce these effects by dispersing the turbulence over a greater volume of air.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial" size="2"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial" size="2">Just my two cents worth!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial" size="2"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial" size="2">John Ferrell W8CCW<BR>"My Competition is not my enemy"<BR><A href="http://DixieNC.US">http://DixieNC.US</A><BR></FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A title="pentagon.systems@bigpond.com">Peter Pennisi</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'NSRCA Mailing List'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, September 01, 2006 8:35 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [NSRCA-discussion] Aero design question</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">My current model has ailerons which extend a fair way towards the fuselage (Comp-ARF IMPACT) What effect does the turbulence coming off the aileron have on the tail plane. I am currently building another IMPACT (IMHO flies extremely well) which I am considering to reduce their size by cutting and fixing the inboard part to the wing in an attempt to clean up the airflow over the tail plane during rolling maneuvers . The model does roll well but it could be better.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Am I barking up the wrong tree – any thoughts!</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Arial" color="navy" size="2"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Peter </SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
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