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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'm trying to determine whether or not a
"pair of brothers" is four individuals? Maybe they had cousins named Rong, that
way they could cover all the bases.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>O.K., O.K., O.K., I'm going, I'm going
!!!!!!!!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=randy10926@comtekmail.com
href="mailto:randy10926@comtekmail.com">Glenn Hatfield</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, September 05, 2006 12:28
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Aero
design question</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial,sans-serif">
<DIV>I seem to remember it was a pair of brothers. Nice folks too; if a
bit strange.</DIV>
<DIV>randy<BR><BR>--- <A
href="mailto:d.pappas@kodeos.com">d.pappas@kodeos.com</A> wrote:<BR><BR>From:
"Dean Pappas" <<A
href="mailto:d.pappas@kodeos.com">d.pappas@kodeos.com</A>><BR>To: "NSRCA
Mailing List" <<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Subject:
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Aero design question<BR>Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006 10:58:23
-0400<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>That would be some crazy pair
of brothers, right?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">Dean Pappas</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Sr. Design Engineer</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Kodeos Communications</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">111 Corporate Blvd.</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">South Plainfield, N.J. 07080</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-7817 phone</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-2392 fax</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">d.pappas@kodeos.com</FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original
Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of </B>John
Ferrell<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, September 05, 2006 10:15 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
NSRCA Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Aero design
question<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Caution, Cynical post....:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>How about just flexing the whole
wing?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I recall someone had success with this approach
a long way back!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>John Ferrell W8CCW<BR>"My Competition is not my
enemy"<BR><A href="http://DixieNC.US">http://DixieNC.US</A><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=jpavlick@idseng.com>John Pavlick</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org>NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, September 04, 2006
10:53 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Aero
design question</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Now that sounds like the
way to go! Except I think you actually need 3 servos to do it
right. I'm setting up the mix on my 12z now...</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>
<DIV><FONT size=2>John Pavlick<BR><A
href="http://www.idseng.com">http://www.idseng.com</A><BR> </FONT>
</DIV></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original
Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
<A>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of
</B>george w. kennie<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, September 04, 2006 9:55
PM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Aero design question<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>For cryin' out loud, if your going to go to
all that trouble, use two servos per panel at the opposing extremes of
each flexible aileron driving in opposite directions. Now that's HELICAL
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What the heck have you guys been smokin'
?????????????? And I thought I was extreme. Are we in the
"Twilight Zone" here? BGw?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>G.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=patterndude@comcast.net>Lance Van Nostrand</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org>NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, September 04, 2006
9:05 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Aero design question</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Helical pitch ailerons! Nat, this
is brilliant. Instead of making stiff ailerons, make them to
flex. glue the tip to the wing tip and drive the root end.
Ailerons would work just like a 74x6 propeller.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>--Lance</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=natpenton@centurytel.net>Nat Penton</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org>NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, September 03,
2006 9:31 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Aero design question</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hey Tom</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'm not providing solutions - just
putt'in more wood on the fire. In steady state roll the least drag
position of the ailerons would be constant AOA root to tip. This
would call for the percentage of chord to progress linearly so that
it would be double at the tip vs the mid span position - no
different than helical pitch. </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>A (
severe ?) negative would occur, though, when the ailerons are
initiated, potentially causing a tip stall.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Martin Simmons provides a curve showing
Cl vs % of chord for the aileron. Going over 20% doesen't get
you much for the dollar - just much more servo wear and tear (
especially with the 160 <G> ).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>IMO it is not worth the extra work to
stop the ailerons short of the
tip.
Nat</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=Tom.Koenig@actewagl.com.au>Koenig, Tom</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org>NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, September 03,
2006 6:46 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Aero design question</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff>Hi
lads,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff>This is what I
have found to work well on my Merlin designs. Now,I am ready to be
corrected by those much more knowledgeable than myself-I just do
things empirically!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff>I ended up
using a percentage of the span of the panel (60% in my case). I
have tried various sizes, but somewhere in the 55-65 percentage
area worked well. I also came in from the tip by 30 mm, to
get the aileron out of the tip vortex. Now that I am flying a
Synergy with the ailerons running all the way out, I'm not so sure
how much of a difference it makes. Maybe servo life is a bit
shorter, but that is hard to quantify with the YS shaking things
to bits anyway. As far as aileron chord dimension goes, well, I
have tried various sizes there too, and I do use different
percentages at the tip vs inboard aileron. I actually like to run
a slightly smaller percentage at the tip. I felt it to give me a
more 'linear' feel to the aileron. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff>I also applied
this to 'elevator' design. I wanted the tips of the elevator to be
less effective. I felt it helped pull corners better afterwards,
as in this case the inboard section is doing more of the
work. But now I am running a straight elevator hinge line on the
Synergy...............L.O.L</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff>It all gets
very confusing, and in the end, what does it all mean in 30
knot cross wind, sun in your eyes and thermals to
boot???</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff>Trim as good
as possible, burn heaps of fuel ( or charge them packs) and learn
to fly the PIGS!!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff>Ofcourse good
design helps.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"><FONT
color=#0000ff>T<SPAN>om</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original
Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of
</B>Dean Pappas<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, 3 September 2006 4:58
AM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE:
[NSRCA-discussion] Aero design question<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Hi Gang,</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><FONT size=3>The excellent axial rolling
charecteristic of some designs is due to a lot more than where
the inboard end of the ailerons end. Nonetheless, all of my
designs used ailerons that ended far from the fuse! The only
downside is that having a bit of aileron in front of the stab
offers a useful trimming tool: trailing the ailerons up or down
will change the effective stab incidence, and this was a
powerful adjustment tool back when we didn't have plug-in
adjustable "everything".</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>You note Akiba's well trimmed airplanes. There is some
smart design going on there!</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>later,</DIV>
<DIV>
Dean</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>-----Original Message----- <BR><B>From:</B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org on behalf
of John Ferrell <BR><B>Sent:</B> Sat 9/2/2006 7:48 AM
<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List <BR><B>Cc:</B>
<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Aero design
question<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I have spent a fair amount of
time considering this situation. I have concluded there is no
reason to take the risk of adding unnecessary turbulence to
the empennage.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>In gentle maneuvering it probably
has little effect. In aggressive maneuvering (think snaps) it
likely leads to inconsistent behavior. Inboard ailerons may
contribute additional available force in 3D maneuvers (hanging
on prop?). </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Other related considerations are
aileron shape and the hinging geometry. I also suspect fat
fuselages reduce these effects by dispersing the turbulence
over a greater volume of air.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Just my two cents
worth!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>John Ferrell
W8CCW<BR>"My Competition is not my enemy"<BR><A
href="http://DixieNC.US">http://DixieNC.US</A><BR></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
</DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B>
<A title=pentagon.systems@bigpond.com>Peter Pennisi</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org>'NSRCA Mailing
List'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, September
01, 2006 8:35 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B>
[NSRCA-discussion] Aero design question</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">My
current model has ailerons which extend a fair way towards
the fuselage (Comp-ARF IMPACT) What effect does the
turbulence coming off the aileron have on the tail plane. I
am currently building another IMPACT (IMHO flies extremely
well) which I am considering to reduce their size by cutting
and fixing the inboard part to the wing in an attempt to
clean up the airflow over the tail plane during rolling
maneuvers . The model does roll well but it could be
better.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Am
I barking up the wrong tree – any
thoughts!</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Peter
</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
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