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<DIV><SPAN class=463182813-16082006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Point
well made, Terry! The wordsmithing can almost always use help, and even with our
best efforts, it's going to be an iterative process.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=463182813-16082006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Do we
have any good contract writers out there? If we take one of those, and cross
him/her with an English teacher, we could breed our own race of rules writers
...</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=463182813-16082006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Matt
is right, part of the art of wind correction is in hiding the fixes. If the
judge didn't see it, then it just ain't! Everything else is
details.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=463182813-16082006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>later
Friends,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=463182813-16082006>
<FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Dean</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman">Dean Pappas</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Sr. Design Engineer</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Kodeos Communications</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">111 Corporate Blvd.</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">South Plainfield, N.J. 07080</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-7817 phone</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-2392 fax</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">d.pappas@kodeos.com</FONT> </P>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Terry
Brox<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 15, 2006 10:26 PM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA
Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify
on Item20<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Actually, yes, but I was also trying to prove the
point that there is a gray area in our rules that people only assume. The fact
is, I cant find anything that would directly address that kind of correction.
Only the the description of beginning and ending with a straight line. If I
were a lawyer/argumentive type, I think there would be quite an argument that
could be raised. If there is something in the rule book that does address
this, tell where to look other than the normal "smooth and gracefull" section.
Nice to see the list busy again. LOL </FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=d.pappas@kodeos.com href="mailto:d.pappas@kodeos.com">Dean
Pappas</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 15, 2006 1:24
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007
Masters... clarify on Item20</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=872462318-15082006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>You're being funny ... right?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman">Dean Pappas</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Sr. Design Engineer</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Kodeos Communications</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">111 Corporate Blvd.</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">South Plainfield, N.J. 07080</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-7817 phone</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-2392 fax</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman"><A
href="mailto:d.pappas@kodeos.com">d.pappas@kodeos.com</A></FONT> </P>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Terry
Brox<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 15, 2006 2:14 PM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA
Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters...
clarify on Item20<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Would that mean that the "dead" zone between
the exit line of one maneuver and the entry line of another, if there is
sufficient distance, could be used to reposition the craft on a new
heading. In othere words, turn 90 degrees to the flight path then back 90
degrees as to move out or in if necessary? From this, one would assume the
"dead" zone should not be judged. </FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=geobet@gis.net href="mailto:geobet@gis.net">george w.
kennie</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 15, 2006
12:41 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
2007 Masters... clarify on Item20</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><STRONG><EM><<<Calling of box entry must be
done so there is a minimum of a 15 meter straight line before the first
maneuver. Judging of the maneuver will begin then. (As the lines into
and out of maneuvers are part of the maneuver and are always judged).
Calling of exiting the box must be done after a minimum of a 15
meter straight line after the maneuver. Judging will cease at that
point.>>></EM></STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT size=2></FONT></EM></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT size=2>I think what's being slightly overlooked
is the word "minimum". We used to be required to call "the box" at the
pole, (which is the way it should still be done, but I can't change
that) but some ill informed people had that requirement altered. Why do
you think that the word "minimum" is inserted at that point in the
wording? It's not because that's where the box needs to be called,
( the box can be called at any point between the pole and the 15 meter
point) it's because the entry and exit lines, for every maneuver, are
required to be 15 meters in length. This "minimum' requirement specifies
that this is so, if not by pronouncement then by inference. To me
this is quite clear, however, the thing that we can't substantiate even
by inference is whether or not the exit line from one maneuver can also
serve as the entry line for the upcoming maneuver, eliminating the
perception of the need for 30 meters between maneuvers. I have seen
instances where this requirement created a very real test of the box
constraints and would like to see a resolution of this particular
conflict. My feeling is that a superimposition should be acceptable, but
that would have to appear in writing
somewhere.</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT size=2>Georgie<FONT
face=Arial></FONT></FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=don.ramsey@cox.net href="mailto:don.ramsey@cox.net">Don
Ramsey</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 15, 2006
8:51 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
2007 Masters... clarify on Item20</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>
<DIV><FONT size=2>First, to be clear on the Masters 2/2 Slow Roll
Opposite. Center is defined only after the maneuver ends. Where
did it start, where did it end and only then, was the entire maneuver
centered?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>I'm currently gathering
information for the next year's judging materials so this discussion
is great. </FONT><FONT size=2>Interesting points on entry and
exit lines. The rules are not clear. Consider this, the
box entry must be called 15 meters before the first maneuver
begins. Each maneuver begins and ends with a straight line.
Here's the quotes from the rules: </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=+0><BR><EM><FONT size=2><STRONG>Calling of box entry
must be done so there is a minimum of a 15 meter straight line before
the first maneuver. Judging of the maneuver will begin then. (As the
lines into and out of maneuvers are part of the maneuver and are
always judged). Calling of exiting the box must be done after a
minimum of a 15 meter straight line after the maneuver.
Judging will cease at that point.</STRONG></FONT></EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT><FONT size=2></FONT><FONT
size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Let's take that a little further. It seems to
say, since a line is part of the first maneuver in a sequence then
calling the box entry should be done 30 meters before maneuvering
starts. I don't think that was the intent of the
rule.</FONT><BR><FONT size=2></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>and more on lines:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR><FONT size=2><EM><STRONG>Lines-All aerobatic maneuvers are
started and ended by a horizontal line. When no line is flown between
two (2) scored maneuvers, the upcoming maneuver should be downgraded
by two (2) points.
<BR> All lines
within a maneuver have a beginning and end which define their length.
The length of a line should only be graded when a maneuver contains
several lines with a given relationship, as in a square
loop.</STRONG></EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=+0><FONT size=2><BR></FONT><FONT size=2>I don't think
entry/exit lines have a beginning and end which define their lengths
and if they don't they should not be used for centering
determination. Since the entry and exit lines to a maneuver
can and are often different lengths that would imply those centered
maneuvers where they are different should be downgraded. A good
example would be a turnaround of a half cuban eight, a centered
maneuver then a stall turn for the other turnaround. Should the
centered maneuver be downgraded in this case since the entry and exit
lines are of different lengths? Also, the maneuver descriptions
never say, "Model draws a horizontal line, (remainder of
description) ...." The rules never say the entry and
exit lines must be 15 meters only that they must be there.
The implication is, entry/exit lines should not be used in determining
centering.<BR><BR>Must there be 30 meters between maneuvers? I
disagree with Derek here. Here are the rules on lines.
<BR><BR></FONT></FONT><EM><STRONG><FONT size=2>"(As the lines into and
out of maneuvers are part of the maneuver and are always
judged)." <BR> </FONT></STRONG></EM></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>then later</FONT> </DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>
<DIV><BR><STRONG><EM><FONT size=2>"The judge should form an image of
the forthcoming maneuver based on using the straight and level entry
identified in section D, Judging Individual Maneuvers, as a reference.
The absence of a definite entry into a maneuver increases the
difficulty of judging its precision and competitors will recognize
this as justification for downgrading. The straight and level exit
from a maneuver is one of the more valuable portions of a maneuver in
evaluating how well the intended course of the maneuver was
followed. Therefore, the absence of a well defined straight and
level exit should also result in downgrading. In all cases, straight
and level flight means flight parallel to the flightline, at a
constant altitude, and with wings
level."<BR> </FONT></EM></STRONG><BR><FONT size=2>Section D does
not include any reference to entry/exit lines. It appears there
only need be a definite or well defined line into and out of
maneuvers. That length is not specified. There is also
nothing to preclude the exit line from one maneuver being the entry
line into the next. Again, the maneuver descriptions do not
include the entry/exit lines in their text.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>This needs to be corrected in the next rule
cycle.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Sorry for the rambling,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Don</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><BR><BR></FONT>----- Original Message -----
<BR>From: "Derek Koopowitz" <derekkoopowitz@gmail.com><BR>To:
"'NSRCA Mailing List'"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Sent: Tuesday, August 15,
2006 1:04 AM<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters...
clarify on Item20<BR><BR><BR>> Straight from the rule book on all
counts. The 15 meter rule for straight<BR>> line applies to
entering and leaving the box as well. Refer to page 72. <BR>>
<BR>> http://www.modelaircraft.org/compreg.asp<BR>> <BR>>
Calling of box entry must be done so there is a minimum of a 15
meter<BR>> straight line before the first maneuver. Judging of the
maneuver will begin<BR>> then. (As the lines into and out of
maneuvers are part of the maneuver and<BR>> are always
judged). Calling of exiting the box must be done after a
minimum<BR>> of a 15 meter straight line after the maneuver.
Judging will cease at that<BR>> point.<BR>> <BR>> If there
isn't a defined straight line between maneuvers then the
upcoming<BR>> maneuver is downgraded 2 points (see my comment
below). The length of that<BR>> line should be 30+ meters in
order to receive no downgrade.<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> -----Original
Message-----<BR>> From:
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Fred
Huber<BR>> Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 10:53 PM<BR>> To: NSRCA
Mailing List<BR>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters...
clarify on Item20<BR>> <BR>> you didn't read the whole thing I
posted.... Looks like you responded to the<BR>> part before
"sorry"<BR>> <BR>> You have a 15 meter straight line
definition... I'm not sure if thats from<BR>> the rulebook or
not... That would be appx 7 fuselage lengths.<BR>> <BR>>
But.... does that just apply to the enter and leave box? or does
there have<BR>> to be a 30 meter (or 2 X 15 meter segments with the
un-judged corrections<BR>> between them... there's not much
room for track corrections this way) <BR>> straight line between
consecutive maneuvers? Or is the way I have thought
<BR>> it was correct... no defined straight line lenght between
maneuvers, just a<BR>> definite straight line established?<BR>>
<BR>> ----- Original Message -----<BR>> From: "Derek Koopowitz"
<derekkoopowitz@gmail.com><BR>> To: "'NSRCA Mailing List'"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>> Sent: Monday, August
14, 2006 11:24 PM<BR>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007
Masters... clarify on Item20<BR>> <BR>> <BR>>>
Fred,<BR>>><BR>>> If what you say is the case then every
maneuver would be impossible to <BR>>> judge<BR>>> and
that is why we have the the following:<BR>>><BR>>> Page
72:<BR>>><BR>>> Calling of box entry must be done so there
is a minimum of a 15 meter<BR>>> straight line before the first
maneuver. Judging of the maneuver will <BR>>> begin<BR>>>
then. (As the lines into and out of maneuvers are part of the maneuver
and<BR>>> are always judged). Calling of exiting the box must be
done after a <BR>>> minimum<BR>>> of a 15 meter straight
line after the maneuver.<BR>>><BR>>> Page
77:<BR>>><BR>>> . Lines-All aerobatic maneuvers are
started and ended by a horizontal <BR>>> line.<BR>>> When
no line is flown<BR>>> between two (2) scored maneuvers, the
upcoming maneuver should be <BR>>> downgraded<BR>>> by two
(2) points.<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> The generally accepted
length of that line is 15 meters.<BR>>><BR>>> So add 15
meters to the beginning of, and end of, each maneuver and you
<BR>>> can<BR>>> figure out the center for those maneuvers
that have different rolling<BR>>> elements such as 2/2 point
roll followed by an opposite slow
roll.<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> ---Original
Message-----<BR>>> From:
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Fred
Huber<BR>>> Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 8:57 PM<BR>>>
To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>> Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on
Item20<BR>>><BR>>> OK.. then its impossible to downgrade
THIS maneuver for centering if the<BR>>> straight lines are part
of it.... Because there is no definite attitude <BR>>>
of<BR>>> the model that can be associated with center, and the
line start and end<BR>>> can't be defined, since there's also
straight line exit from the previous<BR>>> maneuver and entry to
the following.<BR>>><BR>>> Sorry.<BR>>><BR>>>
Has to be start of rolling and end of rolling for centering reference
and<BR>>> assumed same length straight at each end. (which can
be just one fuselage<BR>>> length... maybe less since the length
is not defined...)<BR>>><BR>>> If you don't assume same
length straight lines... you can't judge center <BR>>>
on<BR>>> anything.... even a simple
loop.<BR>>><BR>>> You can purposely shoot for roll rates
that center the inverted.... but <BR>>> as<BR>>>
noted... a slow roll probably SHOULD be slower roll rate than the rate
for<BR>>> the 2/2. which would be likely put put you
somewhere in the slow roll<BR>>> portion at
center.<BR>>><BR>>> ----- Original Message
-----<BR>>> From: "Derek Koopowitz"
<derekkoopowitz@gmail.com><BR>>> To: "'NSRCA Mailing
List'" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>>> Sent:
Monday, August 14, 2006 10:10 PM<BR>>> Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on
Item20<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>> The entire maneuver is
judged including the straight lines. Each <BR>>>>
maneuver<BR>>>> as defined in our rules starts and ends with
a straight line.<BR>>>><BR>>>> -----Original
Message-----<BR>>>> From:
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>>>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Earl
Haury<BR>>>> Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 7:55
PM<BR>>>> To: NSRCA Mailing List<BR>>>> Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on
Item20<BR>>>><BR>>>> Actually, while the straight
line "before" and "after" the maneuver is<BR>>>> required the
names (of the lines) themselves define that they are
not<BR>>>> "included" in the maneuver. Rolls start when the
aircraft begins to roll<BR>>>> (for the first element) and
end when it stops rolling (the final <BR>>>>
element).<BR>>>><BR>>>>
Earl<BR>>>><BR>>>> ----- Original Message
-----<BR>>>> From: "Derek Koopowitz"
<derekkoopowitz@gmail.com><BR>>>> To: "'NSRCA Mailing
List'" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>>>> Sent:
Monday, August 14, 2006 9:19 PM<BR>>>> Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on
Item20<BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>>> Not
necessarily - since the maneuver is made up of two different
rolling<BR>>>>> elements the center of the maneuver is the
center of the two components<BR>>>>> including the
straight line before and after the maneuver. Since the
<BR>>>>> 2/2<BR>>>>> point roll will be done a
lot faster than the slow roll the maneuver <BR>>>>>
will<BR>>>>> start early and the 2 point roll will finish
long before center prior to<BR>>>>>
the<BR>>>>> slow roll beginning. What the
pilot/judge needs to do is visualize <BR>>>>>
where<BR>>>>> the maneuver starts including the straight
flight portion and where it<BR>>>>>
will<BR>>>>> end after the slow roll including the
straight flight portion and<BR>>>>>
position<BR>>>>> the maneuver
accordingly.<BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
-----Original Message-----<BR>>>>> From:
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>>>>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf
Of<BR>>>>> jivey61@bellsouth.net<BR>>>>> Sent:
Monday, August 14, 2006 5:18 PM<BR>>>>> To:
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>>>> Subject:
[NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on
Item20<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> I am directing this to
Don Ramsey.<BR>>>>> Where is the center of the 2/2pt
roll,slow roll opposite. It seems it<BR>>>>>
would<BR>>>>> be between the 2/2pt and the slow roll
opposite.<BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
TIA<BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
_______________________________________________<BR>>>>>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>>>>>
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>>>>
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
_______________________________________________<BR>>>>>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>>>>>
NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>>>>
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<BR>>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>>
_______________________________________________<BR>>>>
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