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<DIV><FONT size=2>You can't define rules by inference. All you get is
confusion that way.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>"Everyone knows what a loop looks like" doesnt define a loop
for competition. The typical beginner is happy with full throttle, pull
full up and hold till the plane is level again. Its a loop... but in
competition its about a 1. (won't be round.. won't end at same altitude as
start... inconsistant speed... most likely have to push the nose back down on
exit.)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>If no length is specified... inferring isn't right.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>If the only length defined is the 15 meters ref between
calling box and start of a maneuver... that 15 meters could be between
the edge of the box and the begiiniing of the straight line of the first
maneuver. (since a straight line is part of the maneuver. and you had to have 15
meters BEFORE THE MANEUVER) </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>I can ague, by inference, you need more than 15 meters between
calling box and deviating from level flight. How much? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>If you argue 15 meters of level for each entry and exit... 30
meters. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Some will say "noticeably straight" OK.. 1 fuse length
plus 15 meters... </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Who's right? Neither and both. We're working from
an inference, not a definition.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>And... just try making the call "Entering the box" in less
than 15 meters of aircraft movement... OK.. define when the call point is
vs the 15 meters. Is it at the "E" of "Enter" or the "x' of Box or where
in the middle.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>I can rulemonger with the best of them. .to demonstrate what
rulemongering is... </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>But rulmongring just forces us to make more rules with more
details and you end up with smething only a lawyer can understand. (And any 2
lawyers will argue with each other about its meaning)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>*************</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>I'll go with the way I did it before... no defined
length. Just noticeable straight line.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=geobet@gis.net href="mailto:geobet@gis.net">george w. kennie</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 15, 2006 12:41
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007
Masters... clarify on Item20</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><STRONG><EM><<<Calling of box entry must be done so
there is a minimum of a 15 meter straight line before the first maneuver.
Judging of the maneuver will begin then. (As the lines into and out of
maneuvers are part of the maneuver and are always judged). Calling of exiting
the box must be done after a minimum of a 15 meter straight line after
the maneuver. Judging will cease at that
point.>>></EM></STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT size=2></FONT></EM></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT size=2>I think what's being slightly overlooked is the
word "minimum". We used to be required to call "the box" at the pole, (which
is the way it should still be done, but I can't change that) but some ill
informed people had that requirement altered. Why do you think that the word
"minimum" is inserted at that point in the wording? It's not because
that's where the box needs to be called, ( the box can be called at any point
between the pole and the 15 meter point) it's because the entry and exit
lines, for every maneuver, are required to be 15 meters in length. This
"minimum' requirement specifies that this is so, if not by pronouncement
then by inference. To me this is quite clear, however, the thing that we can't
substantiate even by inference is whether or not the exit line from one
maneuver can also serve as the entry line for the upcoming maneuver,
eliminating the perception of the need for 30 meters between maneuvers. I have
seen instances where this requirement created a very real test of the box
constraints and would like to see a resolution of this particular conflict. My
feeling is that a superimposition should be acceptable, but that would have to
appear in writing somewhere.</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT size=2>Georgie<FONT
face=Arial></FONT></FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=don.ramsey@cox.net href="mailto:don.ramsey@cox.net">Don Ramsey</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 15, 2006 8:51
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007
Masters... clarify on Item20</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>
<DIV><FONT size=2>First, to be clear on the Masters 2/2 Slow Roll
Opposite. Center is defined only after the maneuver ends. Where did it
start, where did it end and only then, was the entire maneuver
centered?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>I'm currently gathering information for
the next year's judging materials so this discussion is great.
</FONT><FONT size=2>Interesting points on entry and exit lines. The
rules are not clear. Consider this, the box entry must be called 15
meters before the first maneuver begins. Each maneuver begins and
ends with a straight line. Here's the quotes from the rules: </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=+0><BR><EM><FONT size=2><STRONG>Calling of box entry must be
done so there is a minimum of a 15 meter straight line before the first
maneuver. Judging of the maneuver will begin then. (As the lines into and
out of maneuvers are part of the maneuver and are always judged). Calling of
exiting the box must be done after a minimum of a 15 meter straight
line after the maneuver. Judging will cease at that
point.</STRONG></FONT></EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT><FONT size=2></FONT><FONT
size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Let's take that a little further. It seems to say,
since a line is part of the first maneuver in a sequence then calling the
box entry should be done 30 meters before maneuvering starts. I don't
think that was the intent of the rule.</FONT><BR><FONT size=2></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>and more on lines:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR><FONT size=2><EM><STRONG>Lines—All aerobatic maneuvers are started
and ended by a horizontal line. When no line is flown between two (2) scored
maneuvers, the upcoming maneuver should be downgraded by two (2) points.
<BR> All lines within
a maneuver have a beginning and end which define their length. The length of
a line should only be graded when a maneuver contains several lines with a
given relationship, as in a square loop.</STRONG></EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=+0><FONT size=2><BR></FONT><FONT size=2>I don't think
entry/exit lines have a beginning and end which define their lengths and if
they don't they should not be used for centering
determination. Since the entry and exit lines to a maneuver can
and are often different lengths that would imply those centered maneuvers
where they are different should be downgraded. A good example would be
a turnaround of a half cuban eight, a centered maneuver then a stall turn
for the other turnaround. Should the centered maneuver be downgraded
in this case since the entry and exit lines are of different lengths?
Also, the maneuver descriptions never say, "Model draws a horizontal
line, (remainder of description) ...." The rules never
say the entry and exit lines must be 15 meters only that they must be
there. The implication is, entry/exit lines should not be used
in determining centering.<BR><BR>Must there be 30 meters between
maneuvers? I disagree with Derek here. Here are the rules
on lines. <BR><BR></FONT></FONT><EM><STRONG><FONT size=2>"(As the lines into
and out of maneuvers are part of the maneuver and are always
judged)." <BR> </FONT></STRONG></EM></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>then later</FONT> </DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>
<DIV><BR><STRONG><EM><FONT size=2>"The judge should form an image of the
forthcoming maneuver based on using the straight and level entry identified
in section D, Judging Individual Maneuvers, as a reference. The absence of a
definite entry into a maneuver increases the difficulty of judging its
precision and competitors will recognize this as justification for
downgrading. The straight and level exit from a maneuver is one of the more
valuable portions of a maneuver in evaluating how well the intended course
of the maneuver was followed. Therefore, the absence of a well defined
straight and level exit should also result in downgrading. In all cases,
straight and level flight means flight parallel to the flightline, at a
constant altitude, and with wings
level."<BR> </FONT></EM></STRONG><BR><FONT size=2>Section D does not
include any reference to entry/exit lines. It appears there only need
be a definite or well defined line into and out of maneuvers. That
length is not specified. There is also nothing to preclude the exit
line from one maneuver being the entry line into the next. Again, the
maneuver descriptions do not include the entry/exit lines in their
text.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>This needs to be corrected in the next rule
cycle.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Sorry for the rambling,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Don</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><BR><BR></FONT>----- Original Message ----- <BR>From:
"Derek Koopowitz" <derekkoopowitz@gmail.com><BR>To: "'NSRCA Mailing
List'" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Sent: Tuesday, August 15,
2006 1:04 AM<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on
Item20<BR><BR><BR>> Straight from the rule book on all counts. The
15 meter rule for straight<BR>> line applies to entering and leaving the
box as well. Refer to page 72. <BR>> <BR>>
http://www.modelaircraft.org/compreg.asp<BR>> <BR>> Calling of box
entry must be done so there is a minimum of a 15 meter<BR>> straight line
before the first maneuver. Judging of the maneuver will begin<BR>> then.
(As the lines into and out of maneuvers are part of the maneuver and<BR>>
are always judged). Calling of exiting the box must be done after a
minimum<BR>> of a 15 meter straight line after the maneuver. Judging will
cease at that<BR>> point.<BR>> <BR>> If there isn't a defined
straight line between maneuvers then the upcoming<BR>> maneuver is
downgraded 2 points (see my comment below). The length of that<BR>>
line should be 30+ meters in order to receive no downgrade.<BR>> <BR>>
<BR>> -----Original Message-----<BR>> From:
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Fred
Huber<BR>> Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 10:53 PM<BR>> To: NSRCA
Mailing List<BR>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify
on Item20<BR>> <BR>> you didn't read the whole thing I posted....
Looks like you responded to the<BR>> part before "sorry"<BR>> <BR>>
You have a 15 meter straight line definition... I'm not sure if thats
from<BR>> the rulebook or not... That would be appx 7 fuselage
lengths.<BR>> <BR>> But.... does that just apply to the enter and
leave box? or does there have<BR>> to be a 30 meter (or 2 X 15
meter segments with the un-judged corrections<BR>> between them...
there's not much room for track corrections this way) <BR>> straight line
between consecutive maneuvers? Or is the way I have thought
<BR>> it was correct... no defined straight line lenght between
maneuvers, just a<BR>> definite straight line established?<BR>>
<BR>> ----- Original Message -----<BR>> From: "Derek Koopowitz"
<derekkoopowitz@gmail.com><BR>> To: "'NSRCA Mailing List'"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>> Sent: Monday, August 14,
2006 11:24 PM<BR>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters...
clarify on Item20<BR>> <BR>> <BR>>>
Fred,<BR>>><BR>>> If what you say is the case then every
maneuver would be impossible to <BR>>> judge<BR>>> and that is
why we have the the following:<BR>>><BR>>> Page
72:<BR>>><BR>>> Calling of box entry must be done so there is a
minimum of a 15 meter<BR>>> straight line before the first maneuver.
Judging of the maneuver will <BR>>> begin<BR>>> then. (As the
lines into and out of maneuvers are part of the maneuver and<BR>>> are
always judged). Calling of exiting the box must be done after a <BR>>>
minimum<BR>>> of a 15 meter straight line after the
maneuver.<BR>>><BR>>> Page 77:<BR>>><BR>>> .
Lines-All aerobatic maneuvers are started and ended by a horizontal
<BR>>> line.<BR>>> When no line is flown<BR>>> between two
(2) scored maneuvers, the upcoming maneuver should be <BR>>>
downgraded<BR>>> by two (2)
points.<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> The generally accepted length of
that line is 15 meters.<BR>>><BR>>> So add 15 meters to the
beginning of, and end of, each maneuver and you <BR>>> can<BR>>>
figure out the center for those maneuvers that have different
rolling<BR>>> elements such as 2/2 point roll followed by an opposite
slow roll.<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> ---Original
Message-----<BR>>> From:
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Fred
Huber<BR>>> Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 8:57 PM<BR>>> To:
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
2007 Masters... clarify on Item20<BR>>><BR>>> OK.. then its
impossible to downgrade THIS maneuver for centering if the<BR>>>
straight lines are part of it.... Because there is no definite
attitude <BR>>> of<BR>>> the model that can be associated with
center, and the line start and end<BR>>> can't be defined, since
there's also straight line exit from the previous<BR>>> maneuver and
entry to the following.<BR>>><BR>>>
Sorry.<BR>>><BR>>> Has to be start of rolling and end of rolling
for centering reference and<BR>>> assumed same length straight at each
end. (which can be just one fuselage<BR>>> length... maybe less since
the length is not defined...)<BR>>><BR>>> If you don't assume
same length straight lines... you can't judge center <BR>>>
on<BR>>> anything.... even a simple loop.<BR>>><BR>>> You
can purposely shoot for roll rates that center the inverted.... but
<BR>>> as<BR>>> noted... a slow roll probably SHOULD be slower
roll rate than the rate for<BR>>> the 2/2. which would be likely
put put you somewhere in the slow roll<BR>>> portion at
center.<BR>>><BR>>> ----- Original Message -----<BR>>>
From: "Derek Koopowitz" <derekkoopowitz@gmail.com><BR>>> To:
"'NSRCA Mailing List'" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>>>
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 10:10 PM<BR>>> Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on
Item20<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>> The entire maneuver is judged
including the straight lines. Each <BR>>>>
maneuver<BR>>>> as defined in our rules starts and ends with a
straight line.<BR>>>><BR>>>> -----Original
Message-----<BR>>>> From:
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>>>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Earl
Haury<BR>>>> Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 7:55 PM<BR>>>>
To: NSRCA Mailing List<BR>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007
Masters... clarify on Item20<BR>>>><BR>>>> Actually, while
the straight line "before" and "after" the maneuver is<BR>>>>
required the names (of the lines) themselves define that they are
not<BR>>>> "included" in the maneuver. Rolls start when the
aircraft begins to roll<BR>>>> (for the first element) and end when
it stops rolling (the final <BR>>>>
element).<BR>>>><BR>>>>
Earl<BR>>>><BR>>>> ----- Original Message
-----<BR>>>> From: "Derek Koopowitz"
<derekkoopowitz@gmail.com><BR>>>> To: "'NSRCA Mailing List'"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>>>> Sent: Monday,
August 14, 2006 9:19 PM<BR>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007
Masters... clarify on
Item20<BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>>> Not necessarily -
since the maneuver is made up of two different rolling<BR>>>>>
elements the center of the maneuver is the center of the two
components<BR>>>>> including the straight line before and after
the maneuver. Since the <BR>>>>> 2/2<BR>>>>>
point roll will be done a lot faster than the slow roll the maneuver
<BR>>>>> will<BR>>>>> start early and the 2 point
roll will finish long before center prior to<BR>>>>>
the<BR>>>>> slow roll beginning. What the pilot/judge
needs to do is visualize <BR>>>>> where<BR>>>>> the
maneuver starts including the straight flight portion and where
it<BR>>>>> will<BR>>>>> end after the slow roll
including the straight flight portion and<BR>>>>>
position<BR>>>>> the maneuver
accordingly.<BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
-----Original Message-----<BR>>>>> From:
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>>>>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf
Of<BR>>>>> jivey61@bellsouth.net<BR>>>>> Sent:
Monday, August 14, 2006 5:18 PM<BR>>>>> To:
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>>>> Subject:
[NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on
Item20<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> I am directing this to Don
Ramsey.<BR>>>>> Where is the center of the 2/2pt roll,slow roll
opposite. It seems it<BR>>>>> would<BR>>>>> be
between the 2/2pt and the slow roll
opposite.<BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
TIA<BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
_______________________________________________<BR>>>>>
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http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
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NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>>>>
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_______________________________________________<BR>>>>
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