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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=096293513-15082006><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>True.... the rules never state that entry and exit lines
should be a minimum of 15 meters - that is why I stated "generally accepted"
since everywhere else it states that a 15 meter line should be present before
the 1st maneuver and so on... to me a 15 meter line is nothing (extremely
short) when a plane is flying at 60 mph (or faster) - but we
need to include a defined length as part of each maneuver - and they should be
equal lengths in order for the maneuver to be deemed
"symmetrical".</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
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<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Don
Ramsey<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 15, 2006 5:51 AM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA
Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify
on Item20<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>
<DIV><FONT size=2>First, to be clear on the Masters 2/2 Slow Roll
Opposite. Center is defined only after the maneuver ends. Where did it
start, where did it end and only then, was the entire maneuver
centered?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>I'm currently gathering information for the
next year's judging materials so this discussion is great. </FONT><FONT
size=2>Interesting points on entry and exit lines. The rules are not
clear. Consider this, the box entry must be called 15 meters before the
first maneuver begins. Each maneuver begins and ends with a straight
line. Here's the quotes from the rules: </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=+0><BR><EM><FONT size=2><STRONG>Calling of box entry must be
done so there is a minimum of a 15 meter straight line before the first
maneuver. Judging of the maneuver will begin then. (As the lines into and out of
maneuvers are part of the maneuver and are always judged). Calling of exiting
the box must be done after a minimum of a 15 meter straight line after the
maneuver. Judging will cease at that
point.</STRONG></FONT></EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT><FONT size=2></FONT><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Let's take that a little further. It seems to say, since
a line is part of the first maneuver in a sequence then calling the box entry
should be done 30 meters before maneuvering starts. I don't think that was
the intent of the rule.</FONT><BR><FONT size=2></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>and more on lines:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR><FONT size=2><EM><STRONG>Lines—All aerobatic maneuvers are started and
ended by a horizontal line. When no line is flown between two (2) scored
maneuvers, the upcoming maneuver should be downgraded by two (2) points.
<BR> All lines within a
maneuver have a beginning and end which define their length. The length of a
line should only be graded when a maneuver contains several lines with a given
relationship, as in a square loop.</STRONG></EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=+0><FONT size=2><BR></FONT><FONT size=2>I don't think entry/exit
lines have a beginning and end which define their lengths and if they don't they
should not be used for centering determination. Since the entry and
exit lines to a maneuver can and are often different lengths that would imply
those centered maneuvers where they are different should be downgraded. A
good example would be a turnaround of a half cuban eight, a centered maneuver
then a stall turn for the other turnaround. Should the centered maneuver
be downgraded in this case since the entry and exit lines are of different
lengths? Also, the maneuver descriptions never say, "Model draws a
horizontal line, (remainder of description) ...." The
rules never say the entry and exit lines must be 15 meters only that they must
be there. The implication is, entry/exit lines should not be used in
determining centering.<BR><BR>Must there be 30 meters between maneuvers? I
disagree with Derek here. Here are the rules on lines.
<BR><BR></FONT></FONT><EM><STRONG><FONT size=2>"(As the lines into and out of
maneuvers are part of the maneuver and are always judged)." <BR>
</FONT></STRONG></EM></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>then later</FONT> </DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>
<DIV><BR><STRONG><EM><FONT size=2>"The judge should form an image of the
forthcoming maneuver based on using the straight and level entry identified in
section D, Judging Individual Maneuvers, as a reference. The absence of a
definite entry into a maneuver increases the difficulty of judging its precision
and competitors will recognize this as justification for downgrading. The
straight and level exit from a maneuver is one of the more valuable portions of
a maneuver in evaluating how well the intended course of the maneuver was
followed. Therefore, the absence of a well defined straight and level exit
should also result in downgrading. In all cases, straight and level flight means
flight parallel to the flightline, at a constant altitude, and with wings
level."<BR> </FONT></EM></STRONG><BR><FONT size=2>Section D does not
include any reference to entry/exit lines. It appears there only need be a
definite or well defined line into and out of maneuvers. That length is
not specified. There is also nothing to preclude the exit line from one
maneuver being the entry line into the next. Again, the maneuver
descriptions do not include the entry/exit lines in their text.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>This needs to be corrected in the next rule
cycle.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Sorry for the rambling,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Don</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><BR><BR></FONT>----- Original Message ----- <BR>From: "Derek
Koopowitz" <derekkoopowitz@gmail.com><BR>To: "'NSRCA Mailing List'"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 1:04
AM<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on
Item20<BR><BR><BR>> Straight from the rule book on all counts. The 15
meter rule for straight<BR>> line applies to entering and leaving the box as
well. Refer to page 72. <BR>> <BR>>
http://www.modelaircraft.org/compreg.asp<BR>> <BR>> Calling of box entry
must be done so there is a minimum of a 15 meter<BR>> straight line before
the first maneuver. Judging of the maneuver will begin<BR>> then. (As the
lines into and out of maneuvers are part of the maneuver and<BR>> are always
judged). Calling of exiting the box must be done after a minimum<BR>>
of a 15 meter straight line after the maneuver. Judging will cease at
that<BR>> point.<BR>> <BR>> If there isn't a defined straight line
between maneuvers then the upcoming<BR>> maneuver is downgraded 2 points (see
my comment below). The length of that<BR>> line should be 30+ meters in
order to receive no downgrade.<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> -----Original
Message-----<BR>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Fred
Huber<BR>> Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 10:53 PM<BR>> To: NSRCA Mailing
List<BR>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on
Item20<BR>> <BR>> you didn't read the whole thing I posted.... Looks like
you responded to the<BR>> part before "sorry"<BR>> <BR>> You have a 15
meter straight line definition... I'm not sure if thats from<BR>> the
rulebook or not... That would be appx 7 fuselage lengths.<BR>> <BR>>
But.... does that just apply to the enter and leave box? or does there
have<BR>> to be a 30 meter (or 2 X 15 meter segments with the un-judged
corrections<BR>> between them... there's not much room for track
corrections this way) <BR>> straight line between consecutive
maneuvers? Or is the way I have thought <BR>> it was correct...
no defined straight line lenght between maneuvers, just a<BR>> definite
straight line established?<BR>> <BR>> ----- Original Message -----<BR>>
From: "Derek Koopowitz" <derekkoopowitz@gmail.com><BR>> To: "'NSRCA
Mailing List'" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>> Sent: Monday,
August 14, 2006 11:24 PM<BR>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters...
clarify on Item20<BR>> <BR>> <BR>>> Fred,<BR>>><BR>>> If
what you say is the case then every maneuver would be impossible to <BR>>>
judge<BR>>> and that is why we have the the
following:<BR>>><BR>>> Page 72:<BR>>><BR>>> Calling of
box entry must be done so there is a minimum of a 15 meter<BR>>> straight
line before the first maneuver. Judging of the maneuver will <BR>>>
begin<BR>>> then. (As the lines into and out of maneuvers are part of the
maneuver and<BR>>> are always judged). Calling of exiting the box must be
done after a <BR>>> minimum<BR>>> of a 15 meter straight line after
the maneuver.<BR>>><BR>>> Page 77:<BR>>><BR>>> .
Lines-All aerobatic maneuvers are started and ended by a horizontal <BR>>>
line.<BR>>> When no line is flown<BR>>> between two (2) scored
maneuvers, the upcoming maneuver should be <BR>>> downgraded<BR>>>
by two (2) points.<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> The generally accepted
length of that line is 15 meters.<BR>>><BR>>> So add 15 meters to
the beginning of, and end of, each maneuver and you <BR>>> can<BR>>>
figure out the center for those maneuvers that have different
rolling<BR>>> elements such as 2/2 point roll followed by an opposite slow
roll.<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> ---Original Message-----<BR>>>
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Fred
Huber<BR>>> Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 8:57 PM<BR>>> To:
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
2007 Masters... clarify on Item20<BR>>><BR>>> OK.. then its
impossible to downgrade THIS maneuver for centering if the<BR>>> straight
lines are part of it.... Because there is no definite attitude
<BR>>> of<BR>>> the model that can be associated with center, and
the line start and end<BR>>> can't be defined, since there's also straight
line exit from the previous<BR>>> maneuver and entry to the
following.<BR>>><BR>>> Sorry.<BR>>><BR>>> Has to be
start of rolling and end of rolling for centering reference and<BR>>>
assumed same length straight at each end. (which can be just one
fuselage<BR>>> length... maybe less since the length is not
defined...)<BR>>><BR>>> If you don't assume same length straight
lines... you can't judge center <BR>>> on<BR>>> anything.... even a
simple loop.<BR>>><BR>>> You can purposely shoot for roll rates that
center the inverted.... but <BR>>> as<BR>>> noted... a slow
roll probably SHOULD be slower roll rate than the rate for<BR>>> the
2/2. which would be likely put put you somewhere in the slow
roll<BR>>> portion at center.<BR>>><BR>>> ----- Original
Message -----<BR>>> From: "Derek Koopowitz"
<derekkoopowitz@gmail.com><BR>>> To: "'NSRCA Mailing List'"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>>> Sent: Monday, August 14,
2006 10:10 PM<BR>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters...
clarify on Item20<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>> The entire maneuver is
judged including the straight lines. Each <BR>>>>
maneuver<BR>>>> as defined in our rules starts and ends with a straight
line.<BR>>>><BR>>>> -----Original Message-----<BR>>>>
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>>>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Earl
Haury<BR>>>> Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 7:55 PM<BR>>>> To:
NSRCA Mailing List<BR>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007
Masters... clarify on Item20<BR>>>><BR>>>> Actually, while the
straight line "before" and "after" the maneuver is<BR>>>> required the
names (of the lines) themselves define that they are not<BR>>>>
"included" in the maneuver. Rolls start when the aircraft begins to
roll<BR>>>> (for the first element) and end when it stops rolling (the
final <BR>>>> element).<BR>>>><BR>>>>
Earl<BR>>>><BR>>>> ----- Original Message
-----<BR>>>> From: "Derek Koopowitz"
<derekkoopowitz@gmail.com><BR>>>> To: "'NSRCA Mailing List'"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>>>> Sent: Monday, August
14, 2006 9:19 PM<BR>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters...
clarify on Item20<BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>>> Not
necessarily - since the maneuver is made up of two different
rolling<BR>>>>> elements the center of the maneuver is the center of
the two components<BR>>>>> including the straight line before and
after the maneuver. Since the <BR>>>>> 2/2<BR>>>>>
point roll will be done a lot faster than the slow roll the maneuver
<BR>>>>> will<BR>>>>> start early and the 2 point roll
will finish long before center prior to<BR>>>>>
the<BR>>>>> slow roll beginning. What the pilot/judge needs to
do is visualize <BR>>>>> where<BR>>>>> the maneuver
starts including the straight flight portion and where it<BR>>>>>
will<BR>>>>> end after the slow roll including the straight flight
portion and<BR>>>>> position<BR>>>>> the maneuver
accordingly.<BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
-----Original Message-----<BR>>>>> From:
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>>>>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf
Of<BR>>>>> jivey61@bellsouth.net<BR>>>>> Sent: Monday,
August 14, 2006 5:18 PM<BR>>>>> To:
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>>>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion]
2007 Masters... clarify on Item20<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> I am
directing this to Don Ramsey.<BR>>>>> Where is the center of the
2/2pt roll,slow roll opposite. It seems it<BR>>>>>
would<BR>>>>> be between the 2/2pt and the slow roll
opposite.<BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
TIA<BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
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