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<DIV><SPAN class=872462318-15082006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>You're
being funny ... right?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman">Dean Pappas</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Sr. Design Engineer</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Kodeos Communications</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">111 Corporate Blvd.</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">South Plainfield, N.J. 07080</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-7817 phone</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-2392 fax</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">d.pappas@kodeos.com</FONT> </P>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Terry
Brox<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 15, 2006 2:14 PM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA
Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify
on Item20<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Would that mean that the "dead" zone between the
exit line of one maneuver and the entry line of another, if there is
sufficient distance, could be used to reposition the craft on a new heading.
In othere words, turn 90 degrees to the flight path then back 90 degrees as to
move out or in if necessary? From this, one would assume the "dead" zone
should not be judged. </FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=geobet@gis.net href="mailto:geobet@gis.net">george w. kennie</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 15, 2006 12:41
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007
Masters... clarify on Item20</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><STRONG><EM><<<Calling of box entry must be done
so there is a minimum of a 15 meter straight line before the first maneuver.
Judging of the maneuver will begin then. (As the lines into and out of
maneuvers are part of the maneuver and are always judged). Calling of
exiting the box must be done after a minimum of a 15 meter straight
line after the maneuver. Judging will cease at that
point.>>></EM></STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT size=2></FONT></EM></STRONG> </DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT size=2>I think what's being slightly overlooked is
the word "minimum". We used to be required to call "the box" at the pole,
(which is the way it should still be done, but I can't change that) but some
ill informed people had that requirement altered. Why do you think that the
word "minimum" is inserted at that point in the wording? It's not
because that's where the box needs to be called, ( the box can be called at
any point between the pole and the 15 meter point) it's because the entry
and exit lines, for every maneuver, are required to be 15 meters in length.
This "minimum' requirement specifies that this is so, if not by
pronouncement then by inference. To me this is quite clear, however, the
thing that we can't substantiate even by inference is whether or not the
exit line from one maneuver can also serve as the entry line for the
upcoming maneuver, eliminating the perception of the need for 30 meters
between maneuvers. I have seen instances where this requirement created a
very real test of the box constraints and would like to see a resolution of
this particular conflict. My feeling is that a superimposition should be
acceptable, but that would have to appear in writing
somewhere.</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT size=2>Georgie<FONT
face=Arial></FONT></FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=don.ramsey@cox.net href="mailto:don.ramsey@cox.net">Don
Ramsey</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 15, 2006 8:51
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007
Masters... clarify on Item20</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>
<DIV><FONT size=2>First, to be clear on the Masters 2/2 Slow Roll
Opposite. Center is defined only after the maneuver ends. Where did
it start, where did it end and only then, was the entire maneuver
centered?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>I'm currently gathering information
for the next year's judging materials so this discussion is great.
</FONT><FONT size=2>Interesting points on entry and exit lines. The
rules are not clear. Consider this, the box entry must be called 15
meters before the first maneuver begins. Each maneuver begins
and ends with a straight line. Here's the quotes from the rules:
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=+0><BR><EM><FONT size=2><STRONG>Calling of box entry must
be done so there is a minimum of a 15 meter straight line before the first
maneuver. Judging of the maneuver will begin then. (As the lines into and
out of maneuvers are part of the maneuver and are always judged). Calling
of exiting the box must be done after a minimum of a 15 meter
straight line after the maneuver. Judging will cease at that
point.</STRONG></FONT></EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT><FONT size=2></FONT><FONT
size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Let's take that a little further. It seems to say,
since a line is part of the first maneuver in a sequence then calling the
box entry should be done 30 meters before maneuvering starts. I
don't think that was the intent of the rule.</FONT><BR><FONT
size=2></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>and more on lines:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR><FONT size=2><EM><STRONG>Lines—All aerobatic maneuvers are
started and ended by a horizontal line. When no line is flown between two
(2) scored maneuvers, the upcoming maneuver should be downgraded by two
(2) points. <BR> All
lines within a maneuver have a beginning and end which define their
length. The length of a line should only be graded when a maneuver
contains several lines with a given relationship, as in a square
loop.</STRONG></EM></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=+0><FONT size=2><BR></FONT><FONT size=2>I don't think
entry/exit lines have a beginning and end which define their lengths and
if they don't they should not be used for centering
determination. Since the entry and exit lines to a maneuver can
and are often different lengths that would imply those centered maneuvers
where they are different should be downgraded. A good example would
be a turnaround of a half cuban eight, a centered maneuver then a stall
turn for the other turnaround. Should the centered maneuver be
downgraded in this case since the entry and exit lines are of different
lengths? Also, the maneuver descriptions never say, "Model draws a
horizontal line, (remainder of description) ...."
The rules never say the entry and exit lines must be 15 meters only that
they must be there. The implication is, entry/exit lines
should not be used in determining centering.<BR><BR>Must there be 30
meters between maneuvers? I disagree with Derek here.
Here are the rules on lines. <BR><BR></FONT></FONT><EM><STRONG><FONT
size=2>"(As the lines into and out of maneuvers are part of the maneuver
and are always judged)." <BR> </FONT></STRONG></EM></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>then later</FONT> </DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>
<DIV><BR><STRONG><EM><FONT size=2>"The judge should form an image of the
forthcoming maneuver based on using the straight and level entry
identified in section D, Judging Individual Maneuvers, as a reference. The
absence of a definite entry into a maneuver increases the difficulty of
judging its precision and competitors will recognize this as justification
for downgrading. The straight and level exit from a maneuver is one of the
more valuable portions of a maneuver in evaluating how well the intended
course of the maneuver was followed. Therefore, the absence of a
well defined straight and level exit should also result in downgrading. In
all cases, straight and level flight means flight parallel to the
flightline, at a constant altitude, and with wings
level."<BR> </FONT></EM></STRONG><BR><FONT size=2>Section D does not
include any reference to entry/exit lines. It appears there only
need be a definite or well defined line into and out of maneuvers.
That length is not specified. There is also nothing to preclude the
exit line from one maneuver being the entry line into the next.
Again, the maneuver descriptions do not include the entry/exit lines in
their text.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>This needs to be corrected in the next rule
cycle.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Sorry for the rambling,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Don</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><BR><BR></FONT>----- Original Message ----- <BR>From:
"Derek Koopowitz" <derekkoopowitz@gmail.com><BR>To: "'NSRCA Mailing
List'" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Sent: Tuesday, August
15, 2006 1:04 AM<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters...
clarify on Item20<BR><BR><BR>> Straight from the rule book on all
counts. The 15 meter rule for straight<BR>> line applies to
entering and leaving the box as well. Refer to page 72. <BR>>
<BR>> http://www.modelaircraft.org/compreg.asp<BR>> <BR>> Calling
of box entry must be done so there is a minimum of a 15 meter<BR>>
straight line before the first maneuver. Judging of the maneuver will
begin<BR>> then. (As the lines into and out of maneuvers are part of
the maneuver and<BR>> are always judged). Calling of exiting the
box must be done after a minimum<BR>> of a 15 meter straight line after
the maneuver. Judging will cease at that<BR>> point.<BR>> <BR>>
If there isn't a defined straight line between maneuvers then the
upcoming<BR>> maneuver is downgraded 2 points (see my comment
below). The length of that<BR>> line should be 30+ meters in
order to receive no downgrade.<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> -----Original
Message-----<BR>> From:
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Fred
Huber<BR>> Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 10:53 PM<BR>> To: NSRCA
Mailing List<BR>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters...
clarify on Item20<BR>> <BR>> you didn't read the whole thing I
posted.... Looks like you responded to the<BR>> part before
"sorry"<BR>> <BR>> You have a 15 meter straight line definition...
I'm not sure if thats from<BR>> the rulebook or not... That would
be appx 7 fuselage lengths.<BR>> <BR>> But.... does that just apply
to the enter and leave box? or does there have<BR>> to be a 30
meter (or 2 X 15 meter segments with the un-judged corrections<BR>>
between them... there's not much room for track corrections this
way) <BR>> straight line between consecutive maneuvers? Or
is the way I have thought <BR>> it was correct... no defined straight
line lenght between maneuvers, just a<BR>> definite straight line
established?<BR>> <BR>> ----- Original Message -----<BR>> From:
"Derek Koopowitz" <derekkoopowitz@gmail.com><BR>> To: "'NSRCA
Mailing List'" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>> Sent:
Monday, August 14, 2006 11:24 PM<BR>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
2007 Masters... clarify on Item20<BR>> <BR>> <BR>>>
Fred,<BR>>><BR>>> If what you say is the case then every
maneuver would be impossible to <BR>>> judge<BR>>> and that is
why we have the the following:<BR>>><BR>>> Page
72:<BR>>><BR>>> Calling of box entry must be done so there is
a minimum of a 15 meter<BR>>> straight line before the first
maneuver. Judging of the maneuver will <BR>>> begin<BR>>>
then. (As the lines into and out of maneuvers are part of the maneuver
and<BR>>> are always judged). Calling of exiting the box must be
done after a <BR>>> minimum<BR>>> of a 15 meter straight line
after the maneuver.<BR>>><BR>>> Page
77:<BR>>><BR>>> . Lines-All aerobatic maneuvers are started
and ended by a horizontal <BR>>> line.<BR>>> When no line is
flown<BR>>> between two (2) scored maneuvers, the upcoming maneuver
should be <BR>>> downgraded<BR>>> by two (2)
points.<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> The generally accepted length
of that line is 15 meters.<BR>>><BR>>> So add 15 meters to the
beginning of, and end of, each maneuver and you <BR>>>
can<BR>>> figure out the center for those maneuvers that have
different rolling<BR>>> elements such as 2/2 point roll followed by
an opposite slow roll.<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> ---Original
Message-----<BR>>> From:
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Fred
Huber<BR>>> Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 8:57 PM<BR>>> To:
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>> Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on
Item20<BR>>><BR>>> OK.. then its impossible to downgrade THIS
maneuver for centering if the<BR>>> straight lines are part of
it.... Because there is no definite attitude <BR>>>
of<BR>>> the model that can be associated with center, and the line
start and end<BR>>> can't be defined, since there's also straight
line exit from the previous<BR>>> maneuver and entry to the
following.<BR>>><BR>>> Sorry.<BR>>><BR>>> Has to
be start of rolling and end of rolling for centering reference
and<BR>>> assumed same length straight at each end. (which can be
just one fuselage<BR>>> length... maybe less since the length is not
defined...)<BR>>><BR>>> If you don't assume same length
straight lines... you can't judge center <BR>>> on<BR>>>
anything.... even a simple loop.<BR>>><BR>>> You can purposely
shoot for roll rates that center the inverted.... but <BR>>>
as<BR>>> noted... a slow roll probably SHOULD be slower roll rate
than the rate for<BR>>> the 2/2. which would be likely put put
you somewhere in the slow roll<BR>>> portion at
center.<BR>>><BR>>> ----- Original Message -----<BR>>>
From: "Derek Koopowitz" <derekkoopowitz@gmail.com><BR>>> To:
"'NSRCA Mailing List'"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>>> Sent: Monday, August
14, 2006 10:10 PM<BR>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2007
Masters... clarify on Item20<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>>> The
entire maneuver is judged including the straight lines. Each
<BR>>>> maneuver<BR>>>> as defined in our rules starts
and ends with a straight line.<BR>>>><BR>>>>
-----Original Message-----<BR>>>> From:
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>>>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Earl
Haury<BR>>>> Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 7:55
PM<BR>>>> To: NSRCA Mailing List<BR>>>> Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on
Item20<BR>>>><BR>>>> Actually, while the straight line
"before" and "after" the maneuver is<BR>>>> required the names
(of the lines) themselves define that they are not<BR>>>>
"included" in the maneuver. Rolls start when the aircraft begins to
roll<BR>>>> (for the first element) and end when it stops rolling
(the final <BR>>>> element).<BR>>>><BR>>>>
Earl<BR>>>><BR>>>> ----- Original Message
-----<BR>>>> From: "Derek Koopowitz"
<derekkoopowitz@gmail.com><BR>>>> To: "'NSRCA Mailing
List'" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>>>> Sent:
Monday, August 14, 2006 9:19 PM<BR>>>> Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on
Item20<BR>>>><BR>>>><BR>>>>> Not necessarily
- since the maneuver is made up of two different
rolling<BR>>>>> elements the center of the maneuver is the
center of the two components<BR>>>>> including the straight
line before and after the maneuver. Since the <BR>>>>>
2/2<BR>>>>> point roll will be done a lot faster than the slow
roll the maneuver <BR>>>>> will<BR>>>>> start
early and the 2 point roll will finish long before center prior
to<BR>>>>> the<BR>>>>> slow roll beginning.
What the pilot/judge needs to do is visualize <BR>>>>>
where<BR>>>>> the maneuver starts including the straight
flight portion and where it<BR>>>>> will<BR>>>>>
end after the slow roll including the straight flight portion
and<BR>>>>> position<BR>>>>> the maneuver
accordingly.<BR>>>>><BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
-----Original Message-----<BR>>>>> From:
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>>>>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf
Of<BR>>>>> jivey61@bellsouth.net<BR>>>>> Sent:
Monday, August 14, 2006 5:18 PM<BR>>>>> To:
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>>>> Subject:
[NSRCA-discussion] 2007 Masters... clarify on
Item20<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> I am directing this to Don
Ramsey.<BR>>>>> Where is the center of the 2/2pt roll,slow
roll opposite. It seems it<BR>>>>> would<BR>>>>>
be between the 2/2pt and the slow roll
opposite.<BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
TIA<BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
_______________________________________________<BR>>>>>
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http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<BR>>>>><BR>>>>>
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NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>>>>
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_______________________________________________<BR>>>>
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