Hi Peter,<br> <br> You previously asked if I was using Ailevator function, I am.<br> <br> I'm suspicious that the matchbox improved things that much. I found I needed to set my Ailevator function percentages to exactky 100% or the intermediate points would be way off. Don't use Ailevator ppercentages to match end points. I set my Ailevator percentages to 100%, used STM to match the center points and ATV to match endpoints. That got me pretty close throughout the entire range. Then I used a PMX to clean up the rest. The PMX is set to 0 at the end points and center, and up to 5% at intermediate points.<br> <br> Of course this is only static and doesn't help the dynamic delay problem Brian was talking about, but I don't think that delay is much of an issue unless you really yank the stick.<br> <br> Ed<br><br><b><i>Peter Pennisi <pentagon.systems@bigpond.com></i></b> wrote:<blockquote class="replbq" style="border-left:
2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> <meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 11 (filtered medium)"> <!--[if !mso]> <style> v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} </style> <![endif]--> <style> <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:Tahoma; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple; text-decoration:underline;} span.EmailStyle17 {mso-style-type:personal-reply; font-family:Arial; color:navy;} @page Section1 {size:612.0pt 792.0pt; margin:72.0pt 90.0pt
72.0pt 90.0pt;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} /* List Definitions */ @list l0 {mso-list-id:39481794; mso-list-type:hybrid; mso-list-template-ids:-245176216 67698703 67698713 67698715 67698703 67698713 67698715 67698703 67698713 67698715;} @list l0:level1 {mso-level-tab-stop:36.0pt; mso-level-number-position:left; text-indent:-18.0pt;} ol {margin-bottom:0cm;} ul {margin-bottom:0cm;} --> </style> <div class="Section1"> <div class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">Hi all,<o:p></o:p></span></font></div> <div class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div> <div class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">I appreciate all the feedback in relation to this
topic.<o:p></o:p></span></font></div> <div class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div> <div class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">I have had a closer look at my setup and have come to the following conclusion.<o:p></o:p></span></font></div> <div class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div> <ol style="margin-top: 0cm;" start="1" type="1"> <li class="MsoNormal" style="color: navy;"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">The mechanical setup of both elevators is close to identical but not exact. This is certainly part of the problem.<o:p></o:p></span></font></li> <li
class="MsoNormal" style="color: navy;"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Servos are not identical and therefore contribute to the problem <o:p></o:p></span></font></li> <li class="MsoNormal" style="color: navy;"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">There is a slight delay between master and slave channels if using the Ailevators function<o:p></o:p></span></font></li> </ol> <div class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div> <div class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">I went out and picked up one of the Futaba MSA-10 servo matchbox. This item certainly removed a majority of my mismatch without touching too much else. I had originally
started to use a point mix and tried to fix it electronically in the radio but it all became too difficult.<o:p></o:p></span></font></div> <div class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div> <div class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">I went out this afternoon and flew the model with the matchbox and I could certainly tell the difference. It was a big improvement over what I had before; believe me I had spent a considerable amount of time trying to get it right. The model tracked perfectly in very tight to medium sided loops both upright and inverted. I also noticed a big improvement in the hourglass maneuver as the model tracked more precisely.<o:p></o:p></span></font></div> <div class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size:
10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div> <div class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div> <div class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">Peter <o:p></o:p></span></font></div> <div class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> <hr tabindex="-1" align="center" size="2" width="100%"> </span></font></div> <div class="MsoNormal"><b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font face="Tahoma"
size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;"> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">On Behalf Of </span></b>Bob Richards<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Friday, 11 August 2006 8:31 PM<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> NSRCA Mailing List<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Twin elevator servo issue using Futaba 9 ZAP</span></font><o:p></o:p></div> </div> <div class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Brian,<o:p></o:p></span></font></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:
12pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">I think there are two problems. 1) Movement commands from the radio arriving at the servos at the same time (dynamic) and 2) Control surface throws matching through the entire range (static).<o:p></o:p></span></font></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">What you are describing is a dynamic problem, ie: does the radio do all the mixing and send the information to the servos *at the same time*. In other words, while the servos are moving, one is lagging behind the other since the radio is processing one channel before the other. Also adding to the dynamic problem are the
speeds of the servos, they must be the same.<o:p></o:p></span></font></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">The other problem is what I was talking about, when the servos stop, are the control surfaces tracking together. This depends on the linkage geometry as well as the servos being linear.<o:p></o:p></span></font></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">A matchbox attempts to correct both problems. However, a matchbox only matches 3 points in the entire travel range, and the problem described (as I understood
it) is that the throws don't match halfway between the neutral and endpoints. It would be nice if there were multiple points in the range (5, or 7) that could be programmed in the matchbox. This feature could even be used to program in expo, seperate from the transmitter.<o:p></o:p></span></font></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Servos can have linearity problems due to the manufacturing tolerances of the feedback potentiometers. I have seen pots (not from servos) that were "adjusted" by milling away material around the perimeter of the conductive material, but I wonder if anyone does this for the small servo pots used in our systems.<o:p></o:p></span></font></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><font
face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">IMHO, the processing speed is not as much of a problem for us, at least in pattern, as we might think it is. It is much more important that the surfaces end up at the same position, since that will affect the flight more than the small difference in position *while the surfaces are moving*.<o:p></o:p></span></font></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Bob R.<o:p></o:p></span></font></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><br> <br> <b><i><span
style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">brian young <brian_w_young@yahoo.com></span></i></b> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></div> </div> <blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(16, 16, 255); border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt; margin-left: 3.75pt; margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;"> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">I think this is a problem with the processing capability of the TX. You have a progammed mix, it reads one channel then the next. I had a 9CAP where this problem was very noticable. Now on my 9Z its not as noticable, it looks like the slave servo is a little slow to catch up. Only real solution in my opinion is a match box, y-cable or similar device.<o:p></o:p></span></font></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><font
face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">I can sit back and pick which servo is the slaved just watching the surfaces. <o:p></o:p></span></font></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Im understanding that your endpoints match when the surface are finished moving, and the middle is matched as well. You should be able to stop at any point in the travel and the pointers line up, when they stop moving. If this is the case your linkage would be ok. <o:p></o:p></span></font></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
style="font-size: 12pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">I think the speed of the servos has passed the processing speed of the radio.<br> <br> <b><i><span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">Bob Richards <bob@toprudder.com></span></i></b> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></div> </div> <blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(16, 16, 255); border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt; margin-left: 3.75pt; margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;"> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">That might be the cause, or it could simply be a difference in linearity between the servos.<o:p></o:p></span></font></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><font
face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> <o:p></o:p></span></font></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Bob R.<o:p></o:p></span></font></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><br> <br> <o:p></o:p></span></font></div> </div> </blockquote> </blockquote> </div> _______________________________________________<br>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</blockquote><br>