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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Hi Vince,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I had a battery pack come loose from
mounting back in May on an upline. I lost control of the airplane and
finally got the power off and the airplane level. I did a 180 degree
gliding turn to a landing. After touchdown, I had full battery power,
good range check, good engine running range check. I pulled the
canopy, finding the battery dangling. I then hooked up the tester and
tested while shaking the lead which revealed an intermittent connection. Are
you sure you don’t have an intermittent plug connection???<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Chris White <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>vicenterc@comcast.net<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, August 07, 2006
11:49 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">NSRCA
Mailing List</st1:PersonName>; <st1:PersonName w:st="on">NSRCA Mailing List</st1:PersonName>;
<st1:PersonName w:st="on">NSRCA Mailing List</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> gld-sad@hughes.com<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Lost Abbra Battery</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Pat,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Initially, I believed that the force of the snap disconnected the power
from the receiver because the battery became loose inside the
plane. However, at the crash site the servos had power and I had to
turn the switch off to avoid possible smoke. I just was confused after
the shock. At home, I realized that all connections between the battery
and switches and receiver and servos were intact (I secure all plugs wiht
fishing line). The only loose plug was the throttle servo that was
destroy in the crash. I was confused by that loose plug. Actually,
I just turned the TX and RX on and the system came alive without
disturbing any connection. Only I unplugged the aileron servos to carry
the mess. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>I agree, it is going to be difficult to find the cause. Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Vicente "Vince" Bortone<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>-------------- Original message -------------- <br>
From: "Pat Hewitt" <phewitt@farmersagent.com> <br>
<br>
> I am sure we had a battery problem BUT it was not to loss of power BUT I
think <br>
> it departed from its hold down and pulled the switch wire lose. Remember
you <br>
> questioned your material a couple weeks ago and thought of chainging how
you <br>
> had it. THE ONE THING WE KNOW IS WE WILL NEVER KNOW THE CAUSE. You have a
good <br>
> point regarding the two new pilots we had at the fied we need to find them
and <br>
> check them out. <br>
> <br>
> Pat Hewitt <br>
> <br>
> PS I did give you a 10 on the down line. <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> ------ Original Message ------ <br>
> Received: 11:11 AM CDT, 08/07/2006 <br>
> From: "Keith Black" <br>
<TKEITHB@COMCAST.NET>> To: "<st1:PersonName w:st="on">NSRCA Mailing
List</st1:PersonName>" <br>
<NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG>> Subject: Re: [NS! RCA-dis cussion] Lost
Abbra <br>
> <br>
> I've been reading this thread and I serously doubt the NiMH batteries had <br>
> anything to do with the crash. NiMH batteries aren't new on the market for
<br>
> goodness sakes and they've been working very very well on probably
billions of <br>
> flights. Sure we have digital servos, but in truth our loads aren't really
<br>
> very high and certinally not for and extended draw. <br>
> <br>
> I would think if low voltage had caused the loss of control then once the
snap <br>
> stopped, even though you had little time before hitting the ground, you
still <br>
> would have had enough time for the RX to come back to life. Remember, the <br>
> battery did discharge 1540 mah on the ground. <br>
> <br>
> As to the servo that was locked at full throw, if this had occurred in the
air <br>
> the plane would have been spiraling on it's way down and your other
surfaces <br>
> would have still worked. Therefore, you can ru! le out the jammed servo,
that <br>
> most certinally happened upon impact. <br>
> <br>
> As to the IMAC guys having low impedance problems I can buy this, but keep
in <br>
> mind these guys have two to three servos on each surface, their planes
weigh <br>
> 40 lbs, and they slam the controls like crazy doing blenders and such. The
<br>
> usage by pattern planes isn't even in the same galaxy. <br>
> <br>
> Most likely this was a simple case of lock-out due to reception. There
could <br>
> be some other factor, but I would hate to see anyone go back to NiCADs due
to <br>
> this incident. <br>
> <br>
> Keith Black <br>
> ----- Original Message ----- <br>
> From: vicenterc@comcast.net <br>
> To: <st1:PersonName w:st="on">NSRCA Mailing List</st1:PersonName> ; <st1:PersonName
w:st="on">NSRCA Mailing List</st1:PersonName> <br>
> Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 7:44 AM <br>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Lost Abbra <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Thanks Chris, <br>
> <br>
> You are right. The event was so fast. Going down hill at 45 degrees!
didn't <br>
> give me too much time. <br>
> <br>
> I went to NiMh two years ago. Looks like I am going to go back to NiCads. <br>
> Several fellow pilots are telling me about the voltage drop problem of the
<br>
> NiMh. Probably, the battery was not the cause of the crash but I think I
am <br>
> going to feel more confident going back to NiCads. I went to NiMh because <br>
> they are lighter for a given capacity. I agree that there has been a lot
of <br>
> comments in regard the low impedance. However, I really don't want to use <br>
> NiMh after having this problem. <br>
> <br>
> I am planing to send the radio to JR for a complete check out. <br>
> <br>
> Vicente "Vince" Bortone <br>
> -------------- Original message -------------- <br>
> From: "<st1:PersonName w:st="on">White, Chris</st1:PersonName>" <br>
<CHRIS@SSD.FSI.COM>> <br>
> Hi Vince, very sorry to hear about your Abbra loss...not much time to <br>
> recover or evaluate the problem considering where it happened. For what
its <B! R>> worth, I've heard of airplane losses due to over-demand voltage
during snaps . <br>
> I also hear many of the giant scale guys are using "low
impedance" nimh <br>
> batteries when using nimh because of servo over-demand during certain <br>
> maneuvers such as snaps. After hearing the low-impedance story I went to <br>
> Hangtime Hobbies and am now flying their KAM 1800 6v low impedance packs. <br>
> Their site is worth a visit just for the read. <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> www.hangtimes.com/nobsbatteries.html <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> I hope you find closure on the cause. <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Chris White <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- <br>
> <br>
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org <br>
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of <br>
> vicenterc@comcast.net <br>
>! Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 5:49 AM <br>
> To: <st1:PersonName w:st="on">NSRCA Mailing List</st1:PersonName>; <st1:PersonName
w:st="on">NSRCA Mailing List</st1:PersonName> <br>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Lost Abbra <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Ron, <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> I checked all servos but throttle and one aileron servo. All are working <br>
> on the bench fine. One of the aileron servos gears is locked in maximum <br>
> travel position and I am assuming that was caused in the crash. However, I
<br>
> could be wrong. <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Thanks, <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Vicente "Vince" Bortone <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> -------------- Original message -------------- <br>
> From: Ron Van Putte <br>
<VANPUTTE@COX.NET>> <br>
> On Aug 6, 2006, at 9:50 PM, vicenterc@comcast.net wrote: <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> The battery was a little over a year old. I cycled the battery after the <br>
> crash and got around 1540 mah. It was freshly charged and I was in t! he
seco nd <br>
> fly. I use around 200 mah per fly so the battery was close to 2000 mah. I <br>
> always charge at C/10 and never fast charged. <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> I am discharging the battery now at 500 mah. I discharged the first time <br>
> at 250 mah. I will keep increasing the discharge rate to check if I find <br>
> something wrong. <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> I am willing to bet that you will find a bad servo. Maybe Jim Oddino or <br>
> one of the other radio wizards can explain, but a single servo can cause
the <br>
> whole system to crash. <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Ron <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> -------------- Original message -------------- <br>
> From: "Scott Anderson" <br>
<SCOTT@RCFOAMY.COM>> <br>
> How old are the NiMh batteries... People have found the have a steep <br>
> drop off when going bad.. <br>
> <br>
> scott <br>
> <br>
> ----- Original Message ----- <br>
> <br>
> Fr! om: vic enterc@comcast.net <br>
> <br>
> To: <st1:PersonName w:st="on">NSRCA Mailing List</st1:PersonName> ;
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org <br>
> <br>
> Cc: Fred Huber <br>
> <br>
> Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2006 10:19 PM <br>
> <br>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Lost Abbra <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Fred, <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Usually I called pilot (and/or mechanic) error until I find the <br>
> cause of the crash. I haven't been in this position in a very long time. I
<br>
> tend to agree with you since it was clear that I didn't have control.
However, <br>
> the radio is working even after such a crash. There was a comment at the
field <br>
> that NiMh batteries can cause this problem. I will check the battery as
much <br>
> as possible (cycle increasing the current draws) but not sure if the test
will <br>
> be valid. <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Thanks, <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Vicente "Vince" Bortone <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> --------! ------ Original message -------------- <br>
> From: "Fred Huber" <br>
<FHHUBER@CLEARWIRE.COM>> <br>
> In that case... it may have gone to lock out just as it was <br>
> finishing the snap... rather than your control input to get out of the <br>
> rotation, the surfaces go to neutral, it over-rotates and then plays lawn <br>
> dart. <br>
> <br>
> No response at all its very easy to thing failsafe lockout. Since <br>
> the engine was already at the failsafe setting, you don't have that
indicator <br>
> to confirm (or refute) the lockout. <br>
> <br>
> I wouldn't call it pilot error when the control input attempts you <br>
> made simply had no effect... <br>
> <br>
> ----- Original Message ----- <br>
> <br>
> From: vicenterc@comcast.net <br>
> <br>
> To: nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org <br>
> <br>
> Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2006 7:15 PM <br>
> <br>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Lost Abbra <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> I am wrong! below in regard the fail safe in regard the fail <br>
> safe. The fail safe is programmed to cut the engine and set the control <br>
> surfaces at neutral. <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Vicente "Vince" Bortone <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> -------------- Original message -------------- <br>
> From: vicenterc@comcast.net <br>
> <br>
> Yes, yesterday afternoon I lost my Abbra. I was doing the 45 <br>
> degree down with snap. After the snap, I could not control the plane. This
is <br>
> my recollection of events: <br>
> <br>
> 1. I over rotated the snap for a kittle more than 90 degrees. <br>
> It was clear to me at that early stage that something was going wrong. I <br>
> snapped to the right. <br>
> <br>
> 2. My friend Charlie was calling for me. He also noticed and <br>
> said something to put it back in position. I told him that the plane was
not <br>
> responding. <br>
> <br>
> 3. First reaction was to give full left to get it back <! BR>>
upright. The ailerons did not respond. When I realized that, I tried to take <br>
> it out of the dive by given down elevator since was pracically in inverted
<br>
> position. It did not respond. It that aptitude everything goes very fast. <br>
> Finally, I tried to give up elevator but was already too late. I am aware
that <br>
> I applied these control input. It was clear to me that there was no
reaction. <br>
> I was able to realize that I didn't have control and I could not avoid the
<br>
> crash. <br>
> <br>
> 4. I did not have time to do anything with rudder and <br>
> throttle. Throttle was at idle. <br>
> <br>
> 5. When we checked the crash site. One aileron servo was <br>
> buzzing hard. I disconnected the servo. Therefore, my first impression
that <br>
> the battery flew off and it got disconnected with the force of the snap
was <br>
> not valid. <br>
> <br>
> 6. I took the plane home as it came from the crash. I <br>
> disconnect! ed only the ailerons servos. I checked the radio and
everything is <br>
> working fine. Only two servos are not working. The throttle servo that was
<br>
> practically destroyed in the crash and one aileron servo that the gears
were <br>
> stripped. I believe that this was caused by the force of the impact. There
was <br>
> not evidence of flutter in the ailerons before the crash or structural
damage <br>
> after coming out of the snap. <br>
> <br>
> 7. I believe that the plane was well over stall speed after <br>
> the snap. Therefore, the plane was not in stalled condition. However, I
could <br>
> be wrong. <br>
> <br>
> 7. I use JR all around with digital servos. PCM receiver with <br>
> fail safe programmed to cut engine and leave the servos in the last
commanded <br>
> position. <br>
> <br>
> 8. I use 2300 mah NiMh battery (4 cells AA Sanyo). I checked <br>
> the battery voltage and was at 5.15 volts after the crash. Discharged the <br>
> batt! ery and gave 1540 mah using 250mah rate. I am planning to cycle the <br>
> battery with higher loads. <br>
> <br>
> 9. It was very hot day. The plane was sitting in the sun and <br>
> it was second fly of the day around 2:00 PM. Easily was close to 100 oF. <br>
> <br>
> At this point, I have to admit that has to be pilot error <br>
> since I have not been able to find a definitive cause of the crash. It is <br>
> clear that the snap initiated some kind of failure. Other pilots think
that <br>
> the NiMh battery gave up at high currents during the snap and caused the <br>
> crash. I have been flying this type of battery for two years now with no <br>
> problems. <br>
> <br>
> I am informing this to the group since I would like to have <br>
> your feedback. If someone had a similar problem and found the cause of the
<br>
> crash, please let me know. I am going back to my backup plane (the old <br>
> hydeout). I have a brand new Abbra so need to put it ! togethe r. <br>
> <br>
> Thanks and have a nice day, <br>
> <br>
> Vicente Bortone <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------ <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
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