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<DIV>Fred,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>You are correct. I think is going to be very hard to find the cause of the crash. I was really surprised that the radio worked after the crash. I tested yesterday the servos and took out the broken gears and everything went well. I discharged the battery to check at the lowest voltage possible and still everything worked fine. Therefore, I decided to send the radio to JR and have them to check the radio just to be in the safe side. If they can not find anything wrong, I won't use those components anymore.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Thanks,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Vicente "Vince" Bortone</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">-------------- Original message -------------- <BR>From: "Fred Huber" <fhhuber@clearwire.com> <BR>
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<DIV><FONT size=2>You would have noticed the effect of one aileron locked at full travel in flight... very hard to miss that. Been there, luckilly with a plane that had enough rudder and dihedral (with the other aileron) to overcome it. They don't fly any kind of straight line with one aileron stuck at high deflection.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>That doesn't guarantee the servo wan't the cause of the failure, but the position of the gears had to have been changed in the impact. You should be able to pull the servo case top, unjam the gears and test the servo somewhat. But even finding an electical/electronic problem, it would still be debateable if that servo was the cause since jamming the gears that badly says the servo could have been otherwise damaged in the impact.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Finding the cause of a loss of control crash can be very difficult if the cause is not obvious.</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=vicenterc@comcast.net href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> ; <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, August 07, 2006 5:48 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Lost Abbra</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Ron,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I checked all servos but throttle and one aileron servo. All are working on the bench fine. One of the aileron servos gears is locked in maximum travel position and I am assuming that was caused in the crash. However, I could be wrong.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Thanks,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Vicente "Vince" Bortone</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">-------------- Original message -------------- <BR>From: Ron Van Putte <<A href="mailto:vanputte@cox.net">vanputte@cox.net</A>> <BR><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>On Aug 6, 2006, at 9:50 PM, <A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A> wrote:</DIV><BR class=Apple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV>The battery was a little over a year old. I cycled the battery after the crash and got around 1540 mah. It was freshly charged and I was in the second fly. I use around 200 mah per fly so the battery was close to 2000 mah. I always charge at C/10 and never fast charged. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I am discharging the battery now at 500 mah. I discharged the first time at 250 mah. I will keep increasing the discharge rate to check if I find something wrong. </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR class=khtml-block-placeholder></DIV>I am willing to bet that you will find a bad servo. Maybe Jim Oddino or one of the other radio wizards can explain, but a single servo can cause the whole system to crash.</DIV>
<DIV><BR class=khtml-block-placeholder></DIV>
<DIV>Ron</DIV>
<DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">-------------- Original message -------------- <BR>From: "Scott Anderson" <<A href="mailto:scott@rcfoamy.com">scott@rcfoamy.com</A>> <BR>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4>How old are the NiMh batteries... People have found the have a steep drop off when going bad..</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4>scott</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=vicenterc@comcast.net href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> ; <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=fhhuber@clearwire.com href="mailto:fhhuber@clearwire.com">Fred Huber</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, August 06, 2006 10:19 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Lost Abbra</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Fred,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Usually I called pilot (and/or mechanic) error until I find the cause of the crash. I haven't been in this position in a very long time. I tend to agree with you since it was clear that I didn't have control. However, the radio is working even after such a crash. There was a comment at the field that NiMh batteries can cause this problem. I will check the battery as much as possible (cycle increasing the current draws) but not sure if the test will be valid.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Thanks,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Vicente "Vince" Bortone </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">-------------- Original message -------------- <BR>From: "Fred Huber" <<A href="mailto:fhhuber@clearwire.com">fhhuber@clearwire.com</A>> <BR>
<DIV><FONT size=2>In that case... it may have gone to lock out just as it was finishing the snap... rather than your control input to get out of the rotation, the surfaces go to neutral, it over-rotates and then plays lawn dart.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>No response at all its very easy to thing failsafe lockout. Since the engine was already at the failsafe setting, you don't have that indicator to confirm (or refute) the lockout.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>I wouldn't call it pilot error when the control input attempts you made simply had no effect...</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=vicenterc@comcast.net href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, August 06, 2006 7:15 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Lost Abbra</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I am wrong below in regard the fail safe in regard the fail safe. The fail safe is programmed to cut the engine and set the control surfaces at neutral. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Vicente "Vince" Bortone</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">-------------- Original message -------------- <BR>From: <A href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A> <BR>
<DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Yes, yesterday afternoon I lost my Abbra. I was doing the 45 degree down with snap. After the snap, I could not control the plane. This is my recollection of events:<?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = O /><O:P></O:P></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><O:P></O:P></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">1. I over rotated the snap for a kittle more than 90 degrees. It was clear to me at that early stage that something was going wrong. I snapped to the right. <O:P></O:P></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">2. My friend Charlie was calling for me. He also noticed and said something to put it back in position. I told him that the plane was not responding. <O:P></O:P></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">3. First reaction was to give full left to get it back upright. The ailerons did not respond. When I realized that, I tried to take it out of the dive by given down elevator since was pracically in inverted position. It did not respond. It that aptitude everything goes very fast. Finally, I tried to give up elevator but was already too late. I am aware that I applied these control input. <SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"></SPAN>It was clear to me that there was no reaction. <SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"></SPAN>I was able to realize that I didn't have control and I could not avoid the crash. <O:P></O:P></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">4. I did not have time to do anything with rudder and throttle. Throttle was at idle. <O:P></O:P></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">5. When we checked the crash site. One aileron servo was buzzing hard. I disconnected the servo. Therefore, my first impression that the battery flew off and it got disconnected with the force of the snap was not valid.<O:P></O:P></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">6. I took the plane home as it came from the crash.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I disconnected only the ailerons servos. <SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"></SPAN>I checked the radio and everything is working fine. Only two servos are not working. The throttle servo that was practically destroyed in the crash and one aileron servo that the gears were stripped.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I believe that this was caused by the force of the impact. <SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"></SPAN>There was not evidence of flutter in the ailerons before the crash or structural damage after coming out of the snap.</DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">7.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I believe that the plane was well over stall speed after the snap. <SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"></SPAN>Therefore, the plane was not in stalled condition.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>However, I could be wrong.<O:P></O:P></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">7. I use JR all around with digital servos. PCM receiver with fail safe programmed to cut engine and leave the servos in the last commanded position. <O:P></O:P></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">8. I use 2300 mah NiMh battery (4 cells AA Sanyo). I checked the battery voltage and was at 5.15 volts after the crash. Discharged the battery and gave 1540 mah using 250mah rate. I am planning to cycle the battery with higher loads. <O:P></O:P></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">9. It was very hot day. The plane was sitting in the sun and it was second fly of the day around 2:00 PM. Easily was close to 100 oF. <O:P></O:P></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><O:P></O:P></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">At this point, I have to admit that has to be pilot error since I have not been able to find a definitive cause of the crash. It is clear that the snap initiated some kind of failure. Other pilots think that the NiMh battery gave up at high currents during the snap and caused the crash. I have been flying this type of battery for two years now with no problems. <O:P></O:P></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><O:P></O:P></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">I am informing this to the group since I would like to have your feedback. <SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"></SPAN>If someone had a similar problem and found the cause of the crash, please let me know. I am going back to my backup plane (the old hydeout). I have a brand new Abbra so need to put it together. <O:P></O:P></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><O:P></O:P></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Thanks and have a nice day,<O:P></O:P></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><O:P></O:P></DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Vicente Bortone<O:P></O:P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
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