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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Nat,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Did you ever run the OS91 on your special header
pipe with the valve?...your intention was to lower the in-flight idle speed
correct?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>-mark</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=vicenterc@comcast.net
href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> ; <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, March 05, 2006 10:00
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fuel
Regulation in 2C Engines</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>It is interesting. I agree with all comments that I have been
getting. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I am getting around 1,650 RPM in the OS 160. In the 140's a little
higher (around 1,700-1750 RPM). I set up a switch (landing gear) so I go
even lower in the air. I just go to low idle as soon as I take
off. I take the risk and usually the lower setting could be around 100
RPM less. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>However, the situation is that in some maneuvers and conditions during
the dowlines the combination works well and suddenly the next maneuver
does not work as well. It is not consistent time-to-time. For this
reasons believe that doing some re-work to make the inlet pressure as
close as possible to the original pressures (OS 160) will improve the fact
that the engine is not consistent. The OS metering system was design for
low pressure.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I will do the experiment. If does not work is not really a big
deal. Thanks,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Vicente</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">--------------
Original message -------------- <BR>From: "Nat Penton"
<natpenton@centurytel.net> <BR>
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2802" name=GENERATOR>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Vicente, I think Ed pretty well answered the
questions. OS would not use the Perry in the 91SX-H unless it was first
class in performance, also it is much cheaper than buying the OS pumps.
Thats why OS went to it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>FYI, to install the 140 pump in the 160 you
need that portion of the 140 backplate the four bolts are screwed into. Cut
off the sides, Cut an appropriate hole in the 160 backplate to match the
pump. With attention to detail you will be able to remove the pump from the
160 after the JB Weld sets, but I think you should use the Perry instead and
save the money.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>With reference to the two stroke idle, is the
problem on the ground or on the downline ? What idle RPM are you getting
with the 140, 160, Mintor ? You can't get the downline braking with the
two stk, compared to the four, regardless of prop
selection.
Nat</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=ed_alt@hotmail.com href="mailto:ed_alt@hotmail.com">Ed Alt</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, March 05, 2006 8:21
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fuel
Regulation in 2C Engines</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Is this the VP30 pump that is being
experimented with? I have had great results with this on several OS
1.60's, but it does require that you reduce the pump pressure by at least
two turns. Also, the low end needle needs to be
leaned alot, usually about 2 turns to start with. I haven't had
any issues with mid range at all after fine tuning from these as starting
points and it holds up very well over time.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Ed</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=vicenterc@comcast.net
href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> ;
<A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, March 05, 2006 8:13
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Fuel Regulation in 2C Engines</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>John:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Thanks for your advice. I already worked the prop. The
best I found is the 3 blade re-pitched. I just want to improve it
more. Probably very difficult task base on the feedback I am
getting.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I like your idea to tune the return line. I have been
thinking to go that route with a Perry external needle valve in the
return line. The process would be, in the OS 160, to adjust the
return needle valve until the high end needle valve is about 2.5 turns
open at full power. That is the normal setting when I run the
engine with no pump. In this way, we will be close to the
original design pressure. Normally, the OS 160 with the Perry
pump sets within 1 to 1.5 turns open. Than means that
the pressure is too high. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Vicente</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">--------------
Original message -------------- <BR>From: "John Pavlick"
<jpavlick@idseng.com> <BR>
<META content="MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=GENERATOR>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=990502921-05032006>Yeah, I tend to agree with Nat here.
After some discussion about the Perry loop idea, I know someone
who actually tried it. It came down to the theory vs. reality thing
i.e. "only one way to find out..." It seemed like a good idea, but it
didn't seem to work on our big motors. I think that in order for this
to work properly, you would need a pump that is capable of way more
volume AND pressure than you need. In addition to this, the regulator
should be an external device, not inside the pump like the way it is
with a VP-30, or the internal regualtor needs to have an eaxternal
"return" line. This is how a fuel-injected automotive system works, so
it is possible. The Perry loop thing works for R/C cars and smaller
motors but I think the pump needs more volume to feed our big
motors with that big gaping "hole" in the system (the return loop).
Maybe tuning the size of the return loop wi! ! th a restrictor
would be worth a try. Is it worth the effort? Generally a VP-30 that
is properly adjusted will give reliable performance with just a vent
line and no tank pressure / no return loop. Props have a big effect on
what happens when you return to idle too. If you want to help downline
braking, look at props before you spend a lot of time re-designing the
fuel system. Also, try setting the idle a little bit richer. The slow
transition to idle condition is sometimes aggravated by a lean idle
mixture. Not trying to discredit anyone's theories, just passing
along some of my observations.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=990502921-05032006></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=990502921-05032006>
<P><FONT size=2>John Pavlick<BR><A href="http://www.idseng.com/"
target=_blank>http://www.idseng.com</A><BR> </FONT>
</P></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of
</B>Nat Penton<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, March 05, 2006 3:48
PM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Fuel Regulation in 2C
Engines<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Diaphram operated fuel pumps made by OS
( Hanno, 140 RX, 91 SH <Perry?>) are self regulating in that
output is proportional to RPM, proportional to need. These pumps can
be adapted to any 90 to 160 two stroke with JB Weld and without
maching skills. The tank is vented and there is no pressure in the
system.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I have had impeccable performance using
these pumps on the OS91FX for the last four years. I believe the
logic in the circulating systems is
flawed.
Nat</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=vicenterc@comcast.net
href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing
List</A> ; <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing
List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, March 05, 2006
12:22 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Fuel Regulation in 2C Engines</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Hi Brian,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>You got it right. In the OS 160 we would like to set up
the pressure in the header before the carb as close as possible to
the original design (muffler pressure with tank close to
firewall). In this way, the carburetor metering system will
work as was originally designed. I will be doing some test
and see what will work better. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The expert at Perry recommended to send the overflow to
the tank. However, I agree that loop around the fuel pump
could work since that is one old method to control pressure in
industrial pumps. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Vicente</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">--------------
Original message -------------- <BR>From: brian young
<brian_w_young@yahoo.com> <BR>
<DIV>So I guess the thinking behind doing this is that you
deliver the fuel to the carb and its there for the carb to take.
But the fuel at the carb nipple will only be under atmospheric
pressure (since the tanks vented), anything extra is free to go
back to the tank. The venturi affect of the carb will draw the
fuel into the carb. I dont see why you would need to go clear
back to the tank, just loop around the pump. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>This sounds like it could take the variability of pumps out
of the equation and at the same time let the pump deliver fuel
to the carb, but not push fuel into the carb.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Interesting.<BR><BR><B><I>Wayne Galligan
<wgalligan@texasairnet.com></I></B> wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq
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<STYLE></STYLE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Vincent,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>! <FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I wonder if this "T" setup would
work on an OS 1.40. I already use the check valve in the
vent so a couple of "T's" and maybe I would be in
business. Would you have to change the pump
pressure?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Wayne Galligan</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
</DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=vicenterc@comcast.net
href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent! :</B> Sunday, March
05, 2006 8:19 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B>
[NSRCA-discussion] Fuel Regulation in 2C Engines</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>Good morning all,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I have been using the OS 160, OS 140 RX and Mintor 140
with good results in the last 4-5 years. We have been
comparing and discussing the advantages of YS compared
with 2C. One of the main advantages of YS is that in
transition when power down the engine goes instantly to 2000
RPM or less. The 2C engines always takes too much time
to get down to idle and I believe that causes us (in
pattern) some problems. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I have been thinking that the problem is that the
carburetor and or fuel system that can not regulate properly
(pressure or flow). I think in these engines, the
pumps are set to deliver fuel at full flow (or
pressure) without any regulation system (like the
YS). ! I had the opportunity to discuss this issue
with Perry Pump and they recommended to install a by-pass
line. The idea is to send the excess fuel (pressure)
back to the tank during transition. Perry Pump
recommended to install the T as close as possible to the
carburetor needle valve. Also in their web site they
have an idea that he said is used for cars that is a by-pass
line that loop around the pump (<A
href="http://www.perrypumps.com/instructions.htm"
target=_blank>http://www.perrypumps.com/instructions.htm</A>,
Click on Pump and By-Pass Systems). I think the ideas
deserve some checking since it is natural to have this type
of regulation to maintain constant pre! ! ! ss! ure in the
line before needle valve. I tried the other day
the by-pass to the carburetor but I installed the T too far
from the carburetor and forgot to open the vent in the
tank. Of course the results were bad since
I was developing vacuum in the tank. I wi! ll try
these options of by-pass lines as soon as get warmer.
However, I think someone out there already tried to do this
and know results so I am looking for feed back.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Thanks in advance,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Vicente Bortone</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV></WMFILTERED></DIV>
<DIV>
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