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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Just watch out for Happy Gilmore. Getting hit
by one on his drives might cost a lot in medical expenses. :)</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=Tim.Pascoe@ec.gc.ca href="mailto:Tim.Pascoe@ec.gc.ca">Pascoe,Tim
[Burlington]</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, February 27, 2006 10:45
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Equipment
cost and partiicpation --a different viewpoint (LONG)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I’ve never seen a
$2000 set of graphite irons destroyed ‘unintentionally’ after a bad approach
shot. I have seen a $5000 airframe spontaneously re-kit itself due to an
unintentional error……. ;) Perhaps there is a little more safety in the
golf investment……</SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=navy size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Comic Sans MS'">Timothy
Pascoe</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy">
</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>David Flynt<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">February 27,
2006</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">12:35
PM</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> NSRCA Mailing List<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Equipment
cost and partiicpation -- a different viewpoint (LONG)</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt"><FONT face=Arial color=blue
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sounds
fun. I'd choose an old beat up Steinway and an 8 iron. I could not
stand the thought of making a big divot in a shiny new Steinway.
;-)</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt"><FONT face=Arial color=blue
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">David</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0cm">
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0cm"><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of
</SPAN></B>DaveL322@comcast.net<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, February 27, 2006 9:08
AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> NSRCA Mailing
List<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Equipment cost and partiicpation -- a different viewpoint
(LONG)</SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">David,</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">My guess is you may be uniquely
qualified to provide advice on what club should be used to hit a golfball
off a Steinway to an elevated green between 150 and 175 meters away?
<G></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Great post.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Regards,</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Dave Lockhart</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><A
href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</A></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 36pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">-------------- Original message
-------------- <BR>From: "David Flynt" <dflynt@verizon.net>
<BR><BR>> There has been a lot of discussion about the cost of pattern
equipment and <BR>> how it might be the cause of low participation and
low rate of recruiting <BR>> new pilots. There are several flavors of
the claim that I have heard: <BR>> <BR>> 1. If pattern were not
expensive, more rc pilots would participate. <BR>> 2. Pattern is not
necessarily expensive, but there is an impression that <BR>> you
<BR>> must have an expensive plane to win. If we could just get the
message <BR>> across that you do not need an expensive airplane, then
more rc pilots would <BR>> participate. <BR>> 3. It is bad to spend
a lot of money on pattern equipment, because that <BR>> will <BR>>
cause others to purchase more expensive equipment. <BR>> 4. You cannot
win wit! h a low cost airplane (aka roach nothing personal).
<BR>> You need a fancy, expensive airplane to win. <BR>> 5. You
should build your own airplane, preferably using wood, because that
<BR>> will lower your cost. <BR>> 6. Lowering cost is the key to
saving pattern. <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> I disagree with all of these
viewpoints, and I will argue why I feel this <BR>> way. But first, let
me say a couple of things. 1) I like a bargain and <BR>> value as much
as anybody. Nobody throws money away. Have you ever <BR>> purchased
something and paid more than the retail price because you felt <BR>>
that you were cheating the business? Nobody does that. We all hunt for
<BR>> bargains. So low cost is a great thing. 2) Please dont take
anything I <BR>> say personal or as criticism, even if I use
inflammatory terms such as <BR>> roach. I dont mean to upset anybody.
It is just a discussion. <BR>> <BR>> Lets start with number 1: If
pattern we! re not expensive, more rc pilots <BR>> would participate.
<BR>> <BR>> This one is easy. Golf is arguably at least as expensive
as pattern. It <BR>> can be done on the cheap, but for the most part
there are people in every <BR>> corner of the United States that play
golf and spend many thousands on it <BR>> each year. They buy expensive
equipment, pay for lessons, join country <BR>> clubs, and spend lots of
money much more than pattern pilots on average. <BR>> There are
many more golfers than even RC pilots. There is wealth in this <BR>>
country, but even the not so wealthy play golf and spend big bucks. If
cost <BR>> were a barrier, then there would be fewer golfers than
pattern pilots. But <BR>> there are more golfers than pattern pilots;
therefore cost is not a barrier. <BR>> <BR>> Number 2: Pattern is
not necessarily expensive, but there is an impression <BR>> that you
must have an expensive plane to win. If we could just get the <BR>>
message across that you do not need an expensive airplane, ! then more rc
<BR>> pilots would participate. <BR>> <BR>> It is true that
pattern equipment is not necessarily expensive. Probably <BR>> $1000,
depending on the servos is the minimum competitive setup in upper <BR>>
classes, and this could be very competitive. <BR>> <BR>> Let me try
this argument. Consider the piano. How many people play? <BR>> Probably
not very many. A piano can be expensive or inexpensive. You can <BR>>
buy a used piano or an electric keyboard for a few hundred dollars. Now if
<BR>> I offer to give you a Steinway Model D piano, would you give up
pattern and <BR>> start playing piano? You're probably not going to
give up pattern just <BR>> because I subsidize a piano for you. If you
were truly interested in piano, <BR>> you would figure out a way to
start playing. Subsidizing is completely <BR>> unnecessary. The same is
true for pattern. <BR>> <BR>> Now, do you need a Steinway to play
well? I can tell you it i! s a better <BR>> instrument than most. So
what. You don't need a St einway to play the piano <BR>> well. You need
to practice to play well. But let's say you like the way a <BR>>
Steinway feels and sounds, and it makes you happy to have one, and you
don't <BR>> mind spending the extra money on one. Is there something
wrong with that? <BR>> In other words, if you buy a Steinway, do you
really think somebody else who <BR>> is sincerely interested in piano
would somehow become frustrated and never <BR>> play because you can
afford a Steinway but they cannot? That's ridiculous. <BR>> Anybody who
is sincerely interested will play the piano whether or not they <BR>>
can afford a Steinway. The same is true with pattern. <BR>> <BR>>
Number 3: It is bad to spend a lot of money on pattern equipment, because
<BR>> that will cause others to purchase more expensive equipment.
<BR>> <BR>> There are a lot of people on this list that have this
philosophy. I think <BR>> it all started with Dick Hansen. He is the
lead! er of the cost crusade. <BR>> >From talking to him over the
years and from reading his posts on RC <BR>> Universe, he takes this to
the extreme: It if cannot be done cheap, then it <BR>> should not be
done at all. Dick is a true leader and innovator in pattern. <BR>> He
has proven over and over that you dont need to spend a lot of money on
<BR>> equipment. This just goes to show you that if one person spends a
lot of <BR>> money on equipment, not everybody else will. There are a
lot of people in <BR>> the cost crusade camp (maybe we should call them
roachies for short), so <BR>> just because one person spends a lot of
money on equipment, evidence <BR>> suggests that not everybody else
will. <BR>> <BR>> Electric is a good example. Well, maybe less so,
because it appears that <BR>> the costs of electric can compete with
the cost of IC. But just for <BR>> argument, lets say electric is much
more expensive than IC. As an example, <BR>! > I do not have any near
term plans to switch to electric. Im just having <BR>> too much fun
with IC, and I now have a 2c pattern ship, and one with a <BR>> 160DZ.
As much as I complain about how difficult it is to tune a 2c, I am
<BR>> interested in it. Electric is also interesting, but I dont think
it scales <BR>> that well. It is great for foamies, but I still think
the batteries and <BR>> motors are on the edge of stability. 65 amps is
a lot of current! The <BR>> batteries also scare me because of cost and
fire potential. But mostly, I <BR>> dont really think electric is all
that great and definitely not necessary <BR>> to win. Advocates for
electric say the maintenance costs are much less for <BR>> electric
because of less vibration. Im all for low vibration. It can <BR>>
damage your airframe and servos. But if you get 2000 flights on a
composite <BR>> airframe with a DZ, and you need to service your servo
gears and pots every <BR>> 100 flights, what is the cost difference
between replacing your ! battery <BR>> packs every 100 flights? You can
afford to buy a backup set of servos, and <BR>> then just send them in
for service. And after 2000 flights, you might be <BR>> ready to try a
new airframe. It certainly does not owe you anything after <BR>> 2000
flights. The point is not whether Electric is good or bad, but that it
<BR>> is not necessary, and not everybody is going to follow and switch
to <BR>> Electric. Thats the point. <BR>> <BR>> Number 4
my favorite topic: You cannot win with a low cost airplane (aka
<BR>> roach nothing personal). You need a fancy, expensive
airplane to win. <BR>> <BR>> Lets all get on the same page as to
what a roach is. A roach is simply an <BR>> airplane that is hard on
the eyes. I am not the founder of the term. <BR>> Dennis Galloway, a
former FAI pilot in California and good friend of mine <BR>> may have
coined the term. He once did an air show in Santa Maria, and he <BR>>
did a knife-! edge pass under a 6-foot high limbo bar with an old, beat up
<BR>> Goldberg Ultimate Biplane. He said, I may crash, but this old
roach owes <BR>> me nothing. He made it under the bar not just once,
but twice. He had not <BR>> planned on doing it twice, but I did not
have the record button turned on <BR>> his video camera during the
first pass. Another typical characteristic of <BR>> an old roach is
that it just never dies. The converse is unfortunately <BR>> true
the brand new expensive airplane is somehow drawn more powerfully to
<BR>> earth to its demise than the roach. It is a cruel twist of fate,
similar to <BR>> having a pretty wife, but an unhappy, short marriage.
<BR>> <BR>> Not all scratch built planes are roaches. In fact, most
are not. Some <BR>> examples are in order: All of the Japanese planes
that are seen at the <BR>> worlds competitions are NOT roaches. These
set the standard of beauty and <BR>> craftsmanship, and are typically
hand crafted from balsa wood. Naruke Hobby <BR>> and Ox! ai airplanes
are not roaches. A good example of a roach is the <BR>> Piedmont Focus
or Focus II, especially one that has seen too many hard <BR>> landings
and has a good deal of hangar rash from throwing it carelessly into
<BR>> the back of a pickup over a couple of years. Perhaps the best
example of a <BR>> roach is the Insight. You would need to work really
hard to design a more <BR>> unsightly pattern plane. But if it flies
well, and holds up well, then it <BR>> is a good pattern plane.
<BR>> <BR>> So, can you win with a roach or inexpensive plane? Im
sure everybody has <BR>> examples of being beaten by somebody with a
roach. Its not how the plane <BR>> looks, it is how it flies, and how
well the pilot moves the sticks. I like <BR>> a fancy French composite
plane, but I will be the first to admit that you <BR>> can win with a
roach. Its proven all the time. Except at the worlds. You <BR>> wont
see many roaches in the top ten, bu! t I speculate that that is because
<BR>> the top ten prefer to fly non-roaches, and they can, so they do.
But a <BR>> roach can fly as well as any plane. Look at the results for
the Focus. Don <BR>> Szczur won the Nats with it. That is a darn good
flying roach. <BR>> <BR>> Number 5 -- You should build your own
airplane, preferably using wood, <BR>> because that will lower your
cost. <BR>> <BR>> Ive nothing against wood or saving money.
However, saving time can be more <BR>> valuable than saving money.
Also, I feel that there are not enough good <BR>> choices for wood
pattern kits. If there were something that looked like a <BR>> Znline
Oxalys or PL Partner, was constructed out of wood like the Exclusive
<BR>> Modelbau kits, HAD A NOSE RING, then I would buy and build one.
The lazer <BR>> cut EM kits are the cats meow. These are very light
for their size, fit <BR>> perfectly, are engineered well, and use
excellent wood. I dont really like <BR>> the sheeted and painted
scratch built Typhoons and va! rieties. There is too <BR>> much work
and too heavy. You dont need all that sheeting for strength and <BR>>
rigidity. That is just for looks. I would like to see a hogged out light
<BR>> ply fuse that can be covered with transparent film, and no
special jigs or <BR>> finishing techniques required. There is a market
for that. EM should <BR>> produce a pattern kit, or somebody should,
but update the design from the <BR>> Typhoon. A tall, wide fuse is the
correct design, all lazer cut. Built-up <BR>> or foam core wings
either one. <BR>> <BR>> Some math is in order. Lets say you
make $100,000 salary per year. That <BR>> means your time is worth
$50.00 per hour. You could do side work in <BR>> addition to your 40
hours per week, and bring home a lot of extra money. If <BR>> you spend
200 to 300 hours building one airplane, then your $150 roach <BR>>
really cost you $10,000 to $15,000 to build. I like building airplanes,
but <BR>> I h! ate spending all that time building because of the math.
I simply lose <BR>> too much opportunity money in the deal. Painting an
airframe takes me about <BR>> 60 or more hours. Its just not worth it.
Would you build your own car, <BR>> house, piano? Very few people do
because it consumes too much time. It may <BR>> lower the cost, but you
may lose ten fold in time. Thats why you buy <BR>> products. You trade
money for products because it is cheaper than making it <BR>> yourself.
A $3000 Oxai ARF, is a way better value to me than building <BR>>
myself. Do the math. Even if your time is worth only $20 per hour, you
<BR>> come out way ahead, and you get a much nicer airplane. <BR>>
<BR>> I know people that spend 200 to 300 hours of their time on real
estate <BR>> investments, and flip a home or two each year for a tidy
profit of $50,000. <BR>> That roach could be costing you $50,000. You
might want to boast about how <BR>> much you saved over a $6000 Naruke
Hobby airframe, but to me, you lose <BR>> $50,! 000 dollars each time
you build a roach. Personally, I dont see a big <BR>> future in
scratch building. Do the math. <BR>> <BR>> Number 6: Lowering cost
is the key to saving pattern. <BR>> <BR>> The major expense in
pattern is getting to contests. Going to the Nats <BR>> would probably
cost me $4000 to $5000 in gas, lodging, food, wear and tear <BR>> on my
Minivan, and two weeks of vacation. I can trade the whole experience
<BR>> for a ready to fly Oxai. Attending local contests is just as
expensive, <BR>> except I dont need to burn the vacation time.
Attending six local contests <BR>> costs me $2400: 600 miles average
round trip at $3.00 per gallon, 20 mpg = <BR>> $540, $0.10 per mile
wear and tear = $360, lodging for 12 nights at $75.00 <BR>> per night =
$900, and food out at $100 per event = $600. Flying a $1000 <BR>> plane
versus a $5000 plane is going to help. If that is what you need to
<BR>> do, then there should be little ! excuse for not showing up at a
contest. The <BR>> cost crusaders ta lk about lowering cost of
equipment, but completely ignore <BR>> the major expense of getting to
contests. Despite the costs, we get to <BR>> contests because we enjoy
it enough to part with our money. <BR>> <BR>> I really dont think
it is expense that drives people away from pattern. <BR>> Look at the
golf example. There just is not that many that people who are <BR>>
interested in pattern, or rc for that matter. This could change, but there
<BR>> will never be as many pattern pilots as there are golfers.
<BR>> <BR>> Part of the fun with Pattern is playing with equipment.
Whether you fly a <BR>> roach, or a $6000 Naruke airframe, we all share
a passion with the <BR>> equipment. I think that is why we discuss it
so much which power <BR>> technology is best, and how much it
costs, whether it is necessary are <BR>> frequent topics of interest.
In conclusion, I would like to say that it is <BR>> OK to scratch
build, and OK to not. It! is OK to spend very little, and OK <BR>> to
spend a lot. The amount you spend has no impact on the health of pattern
<BR>> and its survival. This is an entirely orthogonal matter. <BR>>
<BR>> If you got this far through my note, I would be interested to
hear what you <BR>> think. Thanks. <BR>> <BR>> David <BR>>
<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
_______________________________________________ <BR>> NSRCA-discussion
mailing list <BR>> NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org <BR>>
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
</SPAN></FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<P>
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