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<DIV><SPAN class=875462616-23012006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Oh
yeah, the other thing the Discharge Protection Module is good for is in
conjuction with a cycler. The same problem I described with the ESC voltage
cutoff is true with the cycler feature of all the chargers out there. If you
hook up the FMA DPM, and listen for the buzzer, you will know when any one
cell has hit 3.0V.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=875462616-23012006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Regards,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=875462616-23012006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Dean</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman">Dean Pappas</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Sr. Design Engineer</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Kodeos Communications</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">111 Corporate Blvd.</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">South Plainfield, N.J. 07080</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-7817 phone</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-2392 fax</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">d.pappas@kodeos.com</FONT> </P>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Dean
Pappas<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, January 23, 2006 11:22 AM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA
Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] E
Stuff<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=984330816-23012006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Hi
Rich,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=984330816-23012006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I
have only one pack, for my personal testing program, and while it is a drag to
wait about 1 hour between flights, I am socializing with my
clubmates.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=984330816-23012006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=984330816-23012006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I
have been flying the FMA stuff since mid-Summer. I'm writing about it for
FM, right now. I almost can't say enough good things about the
syatem. The Balance-Pro charger is dandy, and the discharge protection
module is a fabulous idea. The DPM worked great, until I
un-installed it! After that, I inadvertently ran the pack into the ESC
low-voltage cutoff (30V for 10 cells) but that means that if the cells
aren't perfectly matched, that at least one of them will be under 3.0V! I
damaged a cell that way. The only downside to the DPM is the 1-1/2 oz of
weight it adds to a 10S plane. All my Sport stuff will use a DPM. That is for
sure! The discharge module looks like it could be substantially lightened with
a connector change. Hey Greg ... you listening?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=984330816-23012006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=984330816-23012006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>P.S.
The Balance -Pro charger actually has allowed me to safely fly eleven
more (shortened) flights since I discovered the 40% loss of capacity in one
cell. Obviously this is now in the category of abuse testing (I am being
exceedingly careful) but hopefully the guys at FMA will benefit. I know that I
am.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=984330816-23012006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=984330816-23012006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>later,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=984330816-23012006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Dean</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=984330816-23012006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman">Dean Pappas</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Sr. Design Engineer</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Kodeos Communications</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">111 Corporate Blvd.</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">South Plainfield, N.J. 07080</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-7817 phone</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-2392 fax</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">d.pappas@kodeos.com</FONT> </P>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Richard
Strickland<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, January 23, 2006 10:52 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
NSRCA Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] E
Stuff<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Another thing is I don't live in a perfect
world--that is--I have limited practice time and limited resources which
means I've got to charge at the field. Unfortunately that means the
batteries have to go on charge almost immediately after flying and is not
good for a pretty warm pack--but it wouldn't have been so warm had it been
more capacity. What's a brother to do? The nice thing about
Kokam's Discharge Protection Modules is they give a little 'sag' warning to
land before drawing them down too far. They've also got a
'fast' balancing charger that holds promise. Looks like everyone
is still learning and is compounded with development. It's all
good. Expensive, however, on the bleedong edge.....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Richard</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=ehaury@houston.rr.com href="mailto:ehaury@houston.rr.com">Earl
Haury</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, January 21, 2006 1:21
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] E
Stuff</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Richard</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Tell Orland "hello" from me.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>How much do your 3200 packs weigh?
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Earl</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV DEFANGED_STYLE="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
</DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=richard.s@allied-callaway.com
href="mailto:richard.s@allied-callaway.com">Richard Strickland</A>
</DIV>
<DIV DEFANGED_STYLE="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV DEFANGED_STYLE="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, January
21, 2006 12:23 PM</DIV>
<DIV DEFANGED_STYLE="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] E Stuff</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>After Orland and I went through a steep
learning curve at the beginning last year, the whole set-up became VERY
reliable. Hacker geared motors, Hacker controllers, 22/12 props
and Kokam 3200 20c batteries. As it turned out, the airplanes were
pulling around 65 amps at full throttle and the batteries were not happy
for longevity much over 10c. I sort of re-grouped when all
three sets of batteries called it a day after about 25 cycles ea.
set--decided that I'd wait until the technology caught up. The old
Jag('68 2+2)(2m will just fit) we've been madly restoring is
about under control and I'm about to get back in the fray--so
I'll be casting around for a battery set-up. Castle
Creations(local) sent me a controller to try and I may whip something up
for that. Unfortunately, both the airplanes I've got are a little
heavy that anything over the 3200s will put 'em over the limit. I
may not sweat that for now as I'm probably not going to hit any big-time
contests this year. As I've said before--everything seems pretty
reliable at this point--except battery life. Weight certainly
affects amp draw which affects battery life--so if we have to live with
existing technology--then that is the first place to look. I could
be wrong, but I have the feeling some folks have about 5 sets(or
more) and one or two are in transit to and from the manufacturers
supporting them during the heavy contest season. If you've got
deep pockets(or are sponsored)--that's cool--for the rest of us; either
the batteries have got to come along, or we build lighter, change our
flying approach--or all of the above to extend battery life. I am
NOT bashing Kokam--they are great folks and they were learning right
along with us. I'll be talking to them first. I may chat with
Tanic since they are local. We'll see.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Richard</FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV DEFANGED_STYLE="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----
</DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=ehaury@houston.rr.com
href="mailto:ehaury@houston.rr.com">Earl Haury</A> </DIV>
<DIV DEFANGED_STYLE="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">Discussion List,
NSRCA</A> </DIV>
<DIV DEFANGED_STYLE="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, January
21, 2006 11:02 AM</DIV>
<DIV DEFANGED_STYLE="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B>
[NSRCA-discussion] E Stuff</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The E info on the list has been scant.
Probably some are reluctant to hype / criticize products because of
their involvement with suppliers. Some of us are just blindly
exploring options, gathering data / information, and forming opinions
without experience to back up our conclusions. </FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2>Certainly information offered by those with experience is very
welcome and appreciated. Those who are qualified experts in the
various fields that can correct / clarify information gained through
the school of hard knocks are not only welcome, but I suspect somewhat
obligated to protect the rest of us. As this entire topic expands
there will be conflicting opinions which in themselves provide info -
that's what this list is for and no one should take offense
that some prefer other views.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>After teasing the E guys at the Nats I
recognized that the E powered airplanes flew better (I'll admit to
being obstinate - but not totally dumb). There were also differences
that seemed related more to E equipment choices than differences in
pilot skills. The info published by Jason, Frack, Adam, Chad, and
others (in RCU forums) provided an insight to the various equipment
choices (and passionate defense of same in some cases). Interestingly,
a lot of the discussions revolve around equipment type rather than the
effect on flight characteristics.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>So - I set about trying to determine if E
flies better and why. So far the answer is yes and I'm not sure. While
differences in dynamics can be identified, it's hard to quantify the
effects. For example, the lighter / slower rotating E prop generates a
lower gyroscopic precession force during looping maneuvers than glow -
this also suggests the lower rotating mass of a geared motor might be
better. The lighter motor (compared to glow engine) up front
can result in a lower pitch moment of inertia if the
tail is light enough to allow the battery mass to be close to the CG.
Airplane smoothness in rough air is markedly better with E. (I did
most of my comparisons with twin Partners - one glow and one E - at
about the same flight weight.) This may be an effect of the
large diameter prop or lack of vibration effect on the servos. As
others have noted, thrust application is very good with E as the
slower prop is efficient and the motor is instantly responsive and
very linear. E can be flown slower than or as fast as glow, the
airplane is more stable with E when slow - again probably the
large prop effect. Overall, it's easier to fly well with E but E won't
fix sloppy flying.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>As with most things in model aviation -
there are learning curves. Some suppliers are better than others, some
equipment is better than others, some choices will be revisited after
experience is gained. The hardest thing to get used to is the
metrification of cost - kilo dollars. Not that E is that much more
expensive than glow - just that very little from glow is useable with
E. That means one must acquire motors, controllers, batteries,
chargers, power supplies, meters, connectors, wire, props, etc.
pretty much from scratch.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If there's interest in this becoming a
thread I'll discuss the reasons for some of my choices of equipment
and the data I've generated / will generate with the full
understanding that I might be operating under false assumptions and
some of this stuff will change - I'm still learning.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Earl</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<P>
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