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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>We already have two power tool companies
with Li+ ion power packs. As I understand it Li+poly are lighter per
amount of energy but it seems more dangerous with respect to charging. (any
battery guru’s are welcome to better explain some of the differences, I
would be more than interested). <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I would suspect that saving a few ounces
on a battery pack for a hand tool if not as safe would not be in the toolmakers
best interest. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Anyone know of other industries that would
use LI+Poly and require the discharging abilities that we do?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Also on a quick google search lithium
fiber batteries popped up. Maybe there is something even more promising
on the horizon?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Personally I would like to see the next
generation of batteries before buying several sets.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Stuart<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>vicenterc@comcast.net<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Saturday, January 21, 2006
5:12 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> NSRCA Mailing List; NSRCA
Mailing List<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> Jerry Stebbins<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] E
Stuff</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Jerry,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Today we got two e-mails. One with 30 cycles the other over
170. At the Nats. a very well know pilot told me 60 average. As we
can see, it is all over the map. I would like to go electric and the
advantages of electric power in pattern are evident. However, I am not
ready until battery companies give us some minimum expectation in regard
battery life. Clearly time will tell. I believe that when we start
to see the power tools manufacturers installing LiPo in their equipment we
would be able to expect a decent life of this packs under high current draw
conditions.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Vicente Bortone <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>-------------- Original message -------------- <br>
From: "Jerry Stebbins" <JAStebbins@worldnet.att.net> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Vicente, I hope that is "tongue in cheek", because
any battery manufacturer to warranty to that, or almost any extent would be
killed by his/her lawyers. They would have so many "exceptions" that
they would "never be at fault". </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>If that is anyone's criteria it wll be a long time before
they switch.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Jerry</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='font-color:black'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" title="vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</a> ; <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Saturday, January
21, 2006 2:51 PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] E Stuff<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Scott,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>I am waiting for my second Abbra. If Tanic gives me a written
warranty that the battery is going to last around 250 cycles of Master rounds I
will make the switch. Is that possible? I will follow charging
and break in instructions.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Thanks <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Vicente Bortone <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>-------------- Original message -------------- <br>
From: "Scott Anderson" <<a href="mailto:scott@rcfoamy.com">scott@rcfoamy.com</a>>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
13.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Vicente,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
13.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>You also have to look at replacing
bearing, changing batteries in the support equipment (glow driver/ electric
starter) and servos after a time from vibration, this will increase your glow
cost per flight .. Dan Landis and I are using Tanic packs and he flies FAI and
has a set of sticks ( <st1:place w:st="on">Battery</st1:place>) with over 170
flight and you can't tell the diffrence from that pack and on with less time on
it.. I have just started using Tanic and the results are very good, Just follow
there "breakin" for the packs.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
13.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>I made the jump to electric in 05 and
after the first flight I was hooked and sold all glow fuel and glow planes.. If
you look around you still make the conversion without breaking the bank.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
13.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Just my 2 cents</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
13.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Scott Anderson</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
13.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>D3 AVP nsrca 529</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
13.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Team Tanicpacks.com</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
13.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Team PMA</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div style='font-color:black'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" title="vicenterc@comcast.net">vicenterc@comcast.net</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</a> ; <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">Discussion List, NSRCA</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Saturday, January
21, 2006 1:35 PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] E Stuff<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Unfurtunetely, I have to estimate the cost. I did an estimate how
much is the cost to run my 2c motor per flight. At $15/gallon using 14 oz
of fuel per fly the cost is $1.75 per flight. This number is correct
since I usually flight between 200-300 flights per year. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>The question is: what is the life of the batteries? Base of the
feedback I got at the Nats. the life flying F3A is around 60 flights.
Therefore, if I am correct the cost per fly is $11. Assuming that I do
250 flights per year the cost of electric is $2,750/yr. The equivalent
cost of glow (2C) is $440/year. With two kids in college my option is
clear. I am assuming that the cost of batteries is $640 but not sure
now. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Probably I am wrong in these numbers. Clearly the cost of the
batteries has to come down or the cycles have to go up to around 400
cycles to get equivalent cost to glow. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Any information on this regard is welcome,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Vicente Bortone<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>-------------- Original message -------------- <br>
From: "Earl Haury" <ehaury@houston.rr.com> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>The E info on the list has been scant. Probably some are
reluctant to hype / criticize products because of their involvement with
suppliers. Some of us are just blindly exploring options, gathering data /
information, and forming opinions without experience to back up our
conclusions. Certainly information offered by those with experience is very
welcome and appreciated. Those who are qualified experts in the various fields
that can correct / clarify information gained through the school of hard knocks
are not only welcome, but I suspect somewhat obligated to protect the rest of
us. As this entire topic expands there will be conflicting opinions which in
themselves provide info - that's what this list is for and no one should take
offense that some prefer other views.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>After teasing the E guys at the Nats I recognized that the E
powered airplanes flew better (I'll admit to being obstinate - but not totally
dumb). There were also differences that seemed related more to E equipment
choices than differences in pilot skills. The info published by Jason, Frack, <st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Adam</st1:City>, <st1:country-region w:st="on">Chad</st1:country-region></st1:place>,
and others (in RCU forums) provided an insight to the various equipment choices
(and passionate defense of same in some cases). Interestingly, a lot of the
discussions revolve around equipment type rather than the effect on flight
characteristics.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>So - I set about trying to determine if E flies better and
why. So far the answer is yes and I'm not sure. While differences in dynamics
can be identified, it's hard to quantify the effects. For example, the lighter
/ slower rotating E prop generates a lower gyroscopic precession force during
looping maneuvers than glow - this also suggests the lower rotating mass of a
geared motor might be better. The lighter motor (compared to glow engine) up
front can result in a lower pitch moment of inertia if the tail
is light enough to allow the battery mass to be close to the CG. Airplane
smoothness in rough air is markedly better with E. (I did most of my
comparisons with twin Partners - one glow and one E - at about the same flight
weight.) This may be an effect of the large diameter prop or lack of
vibration effect on the servos. As others have noted, thrust application is
very good with E as the slower prop is efficient and the mo! ! ! tor is
instantly responsive and very linear. E can be flown slower than or as fast as
glow, the airplane is more stable with E when slow - again probably
the large prop effect. Overall, it's easier to fly well with E but E won't fix
sloppy flying.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>As with most things in model aviation - there are learning
curves. Some suppliers are better than others, some equipment is better than
others, some choices will be revisited after experience is gained. The hardest
thing to get used to is the metrification of cost - kilo dollars. Not that E is
that much more expensive than glow - just that very little from glow is useable
with E. That means one must acquire motors, controllers, batteries, chargers,
power supplies, meters, connectors, wire, props, etc. pretty much from
scratch.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>If there's interest in this becoming a thread I'll discuss
the reasons for some of my choices of equipment and the data I've generated /
will generate with the full understanding that I might be operating under false
assumptions and some of this stuff will change - I'm still learning.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Earl</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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