[NSRCA-discussion] F21 - 3 questions

Tue Mar 17 15:36:25 AKDT 2020

The 2019 F3P AP-21 sequence included a Bump with ½ roll integrated across the top of the half loop, and a ½ roll in the downline.  We were advised the rate of the ½ roll across the top radius did not have to match the downline half roll rate.  The given rationale was that it would not be possible to fly the top radius tight enough to keep the roll rate fast enough…..which also seemed to convey the top radius did not need to match the entry and exit radius.

Regards,

Dave

From: NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> On Behalf Of EARL HAURY via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2020 11:32 AM
To: james woodward <jimwoodward89 at gmail.com>; General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>; Derek Koopowitz <derekkoopowitz at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] F21 - 3 questions

To add a little more for thought: 

A further examination of the roll rate language suggests that a continuous roll is defined as a full 360 degree roll? Part rolls are something less than that. If this is true, then in Jim's Q1 - center humpty,  there are part rolls in the entry / exit radii whose rates must match, a continuous roll on the upline, and two part rolls on the downline (separated by a pause - so not continuous) which must match each other but not necessarily the upline or radii rates. Essentially the maneuver contains 2 x 1/4 rolls, 2 x 1/2 rolls, and a continuous full roll where each type matches. (Also, the top radius must be the same as the entry / exit radii.) 

Along the same roll rate theme, one could also argue that reverse rolls are continuous (no pause) although they may be less than 360 deg. such that each roll element rate must match.  

In Jim's Q3, the first roll must be out so as to provide the required push on the first radii. The three half roll directions have no effect on the remaining radii. The description doesn't mention rolling in or out (as is usually the case in a roller), so do the three rolls even need to be the same direction?  

The center stall turn offers an interesting challenge regarding centering in wind parallel to the runway. Assuming the first loop is flown past center so that the upline is on center and wind compensated. The airplane drifts as it slows / stops for the stall turn (allowed by rule) which now places the wind compensated downline significantly downwind from center,  resulting in the final loop also being offset from center. There should be no downgrades for this but, I suspect, the maneuver will score better if upline wind comp is overdone so the stall turn occurs at center and, likewise, the downline is over comped to be at center at the beginning of the final loop. 

Thoughts?  Comments? 

Earl 

On March 16, 2020 at 9:39 PM james woodward via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> > wrote: 

Derek K., 

Thanks so much for your response.  Although I recognize of course that in FAI, the Description takes priority over the Picture, They often match enough that it makes sense to use the picture as a guide.  They seem to align the "picture" with the description intent in roll combinations, and rolling circles, most of the time.   

Q 1:  Agree - application of the continuous roll and part roll language.  Thus - the Entry & Exit "1/4 Integrated Rolls" need to match each other, but do not need to match the Upline 1 roll, or Downline Opposite 1/2 Rolls.  The Upline 1 Roll and Downline 1/2 rolls need to match each other.   Entry & Exit Radii also need to match.   

Q2:  Agree - The maneuver was drawn to depict 1/4 Roll and same direction Snap Roll, then Opposite direction Snap Roll & same direction 1/4 Roll. (There may be more discussion on this, but I think the drawing supports the intent).   

Q3:  Agree - The maneuver is drawn to depict "outside" Rolls.  If you perform Outside rolls, then the "Pull-Push radii" language also aligns in the Description.  (similar to how they draw a rolling circle). 

Thanks and looking forward to any discussion on the matter.  Better to iron this stuff out early in the season, than later. 

Jim W. 

On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 5:10 PM Derek Koopowitz < derekkoopowitz at gmail.com <mailto:derekkoopowitz at gmail.com> > wrote: 

Jim,

The answers to your questions are in the rules… as with all answers – the written description takes precedence over the aresti ALL the time.

1.	Page 30 – 5B.8.5 – d) – “In all manoeuvres which have more than one continuous roll, the continuous rolls must have the same roll-rate. In all manoeuvres which have more than one part-roll, the part-rolls must have the same roll rate. Lines between consecutive part-rolls must be short and of equal length. Between consecutive continuous rolls or part-rolls in opposite direction there must be no line. Where there are continuous rolls and part-rolls within one manoeuvre, the roll-rate for the part- rolls does not necessarily have to be the same as the roll-rate for the continuous rolls.”.  So to answer your question – all part rolls need to have the same roll rate and they can be different to the roll rate of continuous rolls.
2.	If the roll direction is not specified then the rolls must go in the same direction – see Page 30 – 5B.8.5 – last paragraph.  So if you roll left on the ¼ roll then the snap must be left and then immediately followed by a snap to the right and then a ¼ roll to finish.
3.	The answer is Yes – as long as you push/pull/push/pull correctly through all the corners then you will be ok.  Start upright and end upright.

From: NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> > on behalf of NSRCA List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> >
Reply-To: james woodward <jimwoodward89 at gmail.com <mailto:jimwoodward89 at gmail.com> >, NSRCA List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> >
Date: Monday, March 16, 2020 at 11:37 AM
To: NSRCA List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> >
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] F21 - 3 questions

Gents - in order to help pas the time due to CV - I have 3 legit questions on F21:

Question 1:  Center Humpty with 1/4 rolls integrated on the entry & Exit.  Does the "Roll-Rate" of the entry/exit Integrated 1/4 Roll(s) need to match the Roll-rate of the 1-Roll up, and Opposite 1/2 Rolls down?  Or, are the integrated 1/4 rolls treated separate from the rolls-on-lines, but need to match each other (entry/exit)?  

Question 2:  45 Downline.  Does this maneuver need to be flown as depicted in the Aresti, IE, does the First 1/4 Roll and First Snap, with 2nd Snap & 2nd 1/4 roll the same direction?  Or, are the 1/4 rolls separated from the snaps, and the only thing that matters is the Snaps are "opposite", and the Exit is Inverted? 

Question 3:  Horizontal Square:  Does the 1/4 Entry, subsequent 3 1/2 Rolls, and final 1/4 Roll, need to be flown as depicted in the Aresti?  The Aresti depicts these as "outside" rolls (IE, there is a Left horizontal square, and a Right horizontal square, depending on direction of flight.  Or, does only the "pull or push corners" matter, and the Exit to Upright?  

No gotcha's here - just wondering as I have seem various iterations.  I read the .ppt on NSRCA, and didn't see these elements specifically pointed to.

Thanks,

Jim W. 

_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion

_______________________________________________ 
NSRCA-discussion mailing list 
NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20200317/2221ca49/attachment.html>