[NSRCA-discussion] Plettenberg Advance 30-10 ESC - Questions

[james woodward]

excellent writing!
Jim

On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 6:50 AM EARL HAURY via NSRCA-discussion <
nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:

> I suppose an Electronic Speed Controller might be expected to actually
> control motor speed, however most don't. They simply control the amount of
> power applied to the motor. Great to see some ESC's that now actually
> control motor speed! F3A rules don't address power management systems,
> while the AMA rule would appear to address aircraft performance rather than
> motor speed control. Possibly the latter needs some wordsmithing.
>
> Certainly the new ESC systems involve an on board feedback loop. However,
> with the exception of retract servos, all of our servos use an internal
> feedback loop to ensure that they move and hold where we command. So we've
> been flying with feedback loops in our airplanes since the exit of
> escapements and ESC's are just catching up.
>
> As has been pointed out, as long as the pilot must select the control
> input (be it surface position or motor rpm) these systems are well within
> the rules. Systems that automatically maintain aircraft attitude (gyros) or
> speed (pitot data to ESC for example) aren't.
>
> Earl
>
> On June 7, 2020 at 2:08 PM Chad Northeast via NSRCA-discussion <
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>
> So many of us (myself included) flew these at the WC in 2019, and there
> were many events in Europe that allowed their use.  As well the Hacker
> Sensitrol (similar function, however it uses direct rpm measurement I
> believe) was also in use at the WC in 2019, so there is some good precedent
> for legal use at least internationally.  They were known to the event
> organizers/jury/judges etc. that they were being used, and no one was
> disqualified or asked to remove them that I am aware of.  Personally I did
> bring along a full batch of other esc’s in case this happened as there was
> definitely “chatter” about them being illegal, however it turned out that
> was not an issue.
>
> My understanding is it would become illegal if you say used it to maintain
> airspeed, which would then in turn auto adjust the throttle input from the
> rx, essentially taking the pilot out of the “control loop”.  What I
> understand in simple terms is that as long as the pilot is part of the
> control loop then its most likely legal.
>
> Maybe Mark or Derek, or someone more in the loop on the inner workings of
> the rules with the FAI can give more info.
>
> It would be a great shame to make these sorts of innovations illegal as
> ultimately it will stifle creativity and has zero bearing on the results.
> Everyone has access to them, so its a level playing field, the best pilot
> will rise to the top as usual.
>
> Chad
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Jun 7, 2020, at 12:34 PM, Tjpritchett <tjpritchett at aol.com> wrote:
>
> As I was reading this thread, I was wondering how a self regulating speed
> control might fit within the current competition regulations. We’ve
> considered the gyro/ stabilization debate before, and that issue is pretty
> clear, since the relevant rule was written after gyro control was already
> available.
> This capability, prop rpm, was not really around until now, and may need
> to be evaluated more carefully against existing rules. The most relevant I
> could find is copied and posted below, from the 2020-2021 AMA Competition
> Regulations, 4.4.2.  Point number 3 seems particularly relevant.
> What do you think?
>
> Examples of control functions not allowed:
> 1. Preprogramming that will automatically perform a series of commands
> based on a timeline.
> 2. Automatic leveling or electronic stabilization in any axis.
> 3. Power plant management systems that adjust power with regards to model
> performance, position or attitude.
> 4. Positioning systems utilizing any sensors such as air data, GPS,
> distance, etc.
> 5. Learning functions involving maneuver-to-maneuver or flight-to-flight
> analysis.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jun 7, 2020, at 1:11 PM, flyintexanmark via NSRCA-discussion <
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>
> A slight tweak in kv and a d3 should allow use of a ys200 prop. The right
> throttle curve and it may be possible to get Bryan Hebert to fly electric
> :)
>
> Seriously it seems more possible now than ever to emulate a YS.
>
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Chad Northeast via NSRCA-discussion <
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Date: 6/7/20 9:27 AM (GMT-06:00)
> To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Plettenberg Advance 30-10 ESC - Questions
>
> I will chime in my 2 cents on the Pletty.  I have used the Jeti Spin 99
> and the Futaba 9100 (same as OS 1100) and the D3, all of them without
> issues so I think you are safe with those for sure.  I have not used the CC
> or the Jeti Mezon, but I imagine the Mezon is like the Spin.  There is no
> issue taking a Pletty Advance to 90A, and no issues for big props, in fact
> the bigger the better.  I use a 22-13, which hits around 85A and 6300 RPM
> on the ground, any prop made you can run on the motor depending on what you
> like.
>
> Braking has always been an issue, even with the Jeti/Futaba ESC braking
> set I have never been able to get it “perfect” where its good in downlines
> and in 45’s etc, there always seemed to be a compromise.  Propellor
> selection had some impact, I found APC’s brake better than a Falcon on
> their own so that helped to get the balance better at least for my style.
>
> This is where the D3 shines (braking/constant speed), I think blows the
> doors off every other controller made.  It is a total re-learn of how you
> fly, but once you get it I don't think you would want to go back.  For
> those that don't know, the D3 is produced just for pattern and is custom to
> every motor, so you order for the motor you want.  There is no programming,
> no telemetry, nothing really, you just put it in the model setup your tx
> and fly.  It is a governor controller so setting up your RPM is absolutely
> critical, if you get it wrong you will not have great results and likely
> struggle with it.  However the ability to get constant speed is very good,
> it really turned the Pletty into a setup that has braking as good as
> anything else IMO.  It manages power for you in a lot of cases, for
> instance as you pull vertical and the models starts to slow down and load
> the prop the esc will apply power to maintain rpm, so you don't need to
> throttle up much, maybe 2 clicks on the stick.
>
> Some of the adjustments you need to get used to, generally you want to
> start throttling up prior to pulling the exit radius, as the esc is always
> maintaining rpm of the motor you dont have that freewheel to help carry
> speed out of an exit.  So if you don't throttle up early you will really
> lose airspeed.  Mostly in looping elements you actually never need to
> really come to a full idle, as the esc is essentially braking all the time
> to maintain the rpm based on your stick position.
>
> I have also found it very efficient consumption wise, as good or better
> than the Futaba/Jeti’s that I have used prior.  Some really nice side
> benefits, it is light ~70g and inexpensive.
>
> Below is a chart of rx output and motor rpm for the Pletty, personally I
> use 950 rpm for landing, 1950 rpm for normal flight (downline idle), and
> 5600 rpm at my midstick position.  In case it doesn’t show up properly, one
> column is % of output, one column is us output of rx (0 - 2000 us) and last
> is motor rpm.
>
>
> 100.00% 2000 6700
> 90.00% 1800 6030
> 80.00% 1600 5360
> 70.00% 1400 4690
> 60.00% 1200 4020
> 50.00% 1000 3350
> 40.00% 800 2680
> 30.00% 600 2010
> 20.00% 400 1340
> 10.00% 200 670
> 0.00% 0 0
>
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