[NSRCA-discussion] new rules proposals

Sat Jan 19 07:37:19 AKST 2019

+1

  *   Robert Beaubien
  *   Drone Plastics

“What do you call a firm of lawyers buried up to their necks in concrete?   A failure to estimate the proper amount of concrete.”

From: NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> On Behalf Of Archie Stafford via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2019 8:59 AM
To: Daniel Lipton <dlipton at mac.com>; General pattern discussion <NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] new rules proposals

Can we please step back from all the rules proposals? Why do we need to keep adjusting the rules thinking it's going to suddenly fix anything? Giving bonus points simply adds headache to the CD.  And can we honestly say that if a guy shows up with a 76" ultra stick it is an advantage over a 62" pattern plane.

We need to quit looking at Sportsman as this overly competitive class and realize that the ENTIRE purpose of Sportsman is an introduction to pattern.  Would you rather have 4 pilots show up in Sportsman that have AS3X is small aerobatic planes or a QQ Cap or have no one show up because we don't want their planes there.  PATTERN NEVER grow until we get out of own way and start being inclusive. Every day on this list we make ourselves seem more and more elitest with more and more rules. We need to look at the average club and see what they are flying and then allow this people to participate. I don't think we should change anything in intermediate, but in Sportsman.... We need to allow ANY AMA LEGAL plane and that would include anything they put in the plane.

More importantly we need to encourage CDs to try these things for a season and then look at the results. Why change rules that at the end of the day we don't know all of the unintended consequences?  We have the ability to try all of these things before passing rules and let see what the data shows.

I ran for President because I'm tired of watching us go down the same path year after year. We always have excuses not to try things outside of what we've always done. I can easily make the argument that computer radios have been far more beneficial to pattern for all classes than the advantage gained by allowing Sportsman pilots to show up with any airplane and compete, regardless of what is in the plane.

Based on the attendance at contests over the years it seems to me that a lot people keep talking about fixing pattern on this list, but don't actually do what is most important... SHOW UP.

Archie

On Fri, Jan 18, 2019, 10:17 PM Daniel Lipton via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
Yes.  For sure. The 71 inch planes should have a much smaller bonus than a 60ish inch 6s or lower size.  And the range of 2-4% seems better. And per other thread - only if no gyro - if that rule were to change he.

On Jan 18, 2019, at 4:31 PM, Peter Vogel via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
Right.  The intent should be to equalize the differences that are a result of a smaller plane -- it's much more susceptible to wind, etc. and "squirrelier". You would still be expected to fly correct geometry, etc.  I'd apply a 2% bonus to any plane with wingspan 71" or smaller, possibly double it to 4% for anything with a wingspan < 50"

On Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 4:19 PM Monte Richard via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
We had a pilot at the Cajun Nats finish second place with a PHOENIX 7 against at least 5 other 2 meter planes. With the 10% no one could even have a chance against him.

It certainly isn’t right to give a lesser pilot the win over a better pilot like John suggested, just because he flies a smaller plane. That certainly isn’t what our sport or competition is about.
Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 18, 2019, at 6:07 PM, tim pritchett via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
Keep in mind, for analysis below, no consideration is being given to whether pilot 1 and pilot 2's planes were different.  What we don't know is how much 'better' a pilot flies a 2M vs. a 1.75 or smaller airplane to critique the 10%.  We'd be hard pressed, I think, to get a firm, accurate number to represent that difference.  We'd have to have a single pilot fly both sized planes in front of a set of judges, probably multiple times, to know if there was any real difference at all.
That said, it's a penalty - something a pilot must choose to work with or around.  If we want to discourage 2M, then pick a high number.  If it's to level the field, pick a lower one.

-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Underkofler via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
To: John Fuqua <johnfuqua at embarqmail.com<mailto:johnfuqua at embarqmail.com>>; General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
Sent: Fri, Jan 18, 2019 5:38 pm
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] new rules proposals
I was thinking that 10% was a bit high.  Could also do a lower % or Int than Sportsman.

John, I hope the idea of any of these rules proposals is NOT to allow the lesser pilot to win!
We just are talking about leveling the playing field to account for equipment.

On Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 3:32 PM John Fuqua via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
Monte
I sort of arbitrarily picked 10%.    Do the math and suggest a better number.   Although I think the idea is that the newcomer should have a good chance of placing/winning even though he/she may not be the best pilot.

From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>] On Behalf Of Monte Richard via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2019 3:18 PM
To: Monte Richard; General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] new rules proposals

I just went into one of last years contests in intermediate. Pilot one’s first round scored a raw score of 350 and 331, his average raw score was 340.5 (he won the round). Pilot two’s raw score for round one was 338 and 324.5, his average raw score was 331.25, add in the 10% handicap and it becomes 364.375. This moves him to first place in the round by a high margin. Totally changes the results. Add to that the normalizing and it becomes almost insurmountable, considering pilot one outflew pilot two.
Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 18, 2019, at 2:58 PM, Monte Richard <mrichard at compassengineering.com<mailto:mrichard at compassengineering.com>> wrote:
Add in the Kfactors and in Sportsman the total raw score can be 250 making the 10% handicap 25 points.
Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 18, 2019, at 2:28 PM, Monte Richard via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
10% is a lot. sportsman has 18 maneuvers so a perfect flight has a possibility of 180 points in raw score, 10% of that is 18 points. A flight with all 9’s would be a raw score of 162, 10% is 16.2 points. That pretty much means a pilot without the 10% advantage has to beat the pilot with the advantage by 1 point per maneuver on all the maneuvers to beat him, if they tie more than 2 maneuvers, then the handicap beats him. 10% is a high factor to overcome.
Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 18, 2019, at 2:15 PM, Daniel Underkofler via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
John,
 I think you've got a wording problem in your -05 proposal.
You say: 10% when "length/width DOES exceed 71in"
I think you meant: 10% when" length AND width DO NOT exceed 71in"

Dan

On Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 6:46 AM John Fuqua via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
FYI for all.

There are 3 new rules proposals on the AMA website.    Suggest folks take a look.

John Fuqua
cell 850-974-6655

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Associate Vice President, Academy of Model Aeronautics District X
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