[NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane...

Sat Jan 5 08:45:43 AKST 2019

That’s what many people do which is why changing the rules to give a smaller plane an “advantage” in 401 and 402 is not only unnecessary but probably more detrimental than you might think.

Assuming someone knows that Pattern exists in the first place, the first question they ask is “What kind of plane do I need”. My answer is ALWAYS the one that you’re most comfortable with. Sometimes that’s a 90-size plane like a Venus (or the modern equivalent), sometimes it’s a 60-size scale aerobatic airplane. It’s almost NEVER a 2-meter Pattern plane. So there really is no problem as far as hardware is concerned. They don’t need to buy anything to give Pattern a try. They just need to know where the contest is.

Many clubs have Pattern pilots in them. In this case, people who may be interested in flying Pattern will seek out the help of the Pattern guys in the club. In fact, I bet that 99.9% of the NSRCA members look for potential Pattern pilots in their club and offer to help them get started. Many of these people end up at a contest. In my club, I taught someone how to fly and I noticed that he had skills. I told him to get a Venus 60 (this was a long time ago) and start practicing the 401 schedule. I helped him practice and this also got other people interested: “What are you guys doing? Can I try?”. My Student became a 401 District Champion the second year that he was flying. With a Venus 60.

The point is: there is nothing wrong with the 401 schedule or the airplane/equipment requirements. Sportsman is a bit challenging at first but not overwhelming. If it is then that person won’t survive 402 or 403 anyway. 

So what made the Sunday “sport” flyers in my club take up Pattern?

1.	They were told that it existed.
2.	They had help getting started.
3.	They didn’t need to buy anything special.

The first item was my doing. Not NSRCA’s. Think of how many more people would get involved if we didn’t rely on JUST the club Pattern guys to do our recruiting…

John Pavlick

Cell: 203-417-4971

Integrated Development Services

From: NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> On Behalf Of Scott via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Friday, January 4, 2019 10:12 PM
To: Dr. Mike Harrison <drmikedds at sbcglobal.net>; Robert L. Beaubien <rob at koolsoft.com>; General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane...

I started Pattern with a smaller airplane, a Venus II, moved up to a second hand Focus II, Then went ekectric with a Xigris. I understood all along that Sportsman was a try-out and that I’d struggle when I moved up.  I was accepted and nurtured through it all and others can come up the same way if we help them understand that’s how it works.

Sent from XFINITY Connect Mobile App

------ Original Message ------

From: Robert L. Beaubien via NSRCA-discussion
To: Dr. Mike Harrison, 'General pattern discussion'
Sent: January 4, 2019 at 9:52 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane...

Me coming back is only 1/2 the issue. The other is I got started in pattern due to the generosity of an existing upper level pattern pilot selling me their older 2m plane (Typhoon, thanx Rusty! 😊 ) for dirt cheap. If you block 2M planes from competing in lower classes, then that is a roadblock in my opinion. - Robert Beaubien - Sr Software Architect - Kool Software LLC “What do you call a firm of lawyers buried up to their necks in concrete?   A failure to estimate the proper amount of concrete.” -----Original Message----- From: Dr. Mike Harrison Sent: Friday, January 4, 2019 7:31 AM To: Robert L. Beaubien ; 'General pattern discussion' Subject: RE: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane... Thanks Robert, The point of the rules changes is that there are already substantial roadblocks to newcomers and that is explained in the proposal. your claim is that it causes roadblocks for those coming back. Instead of buying a used 2 meter plane you could buy a new smaller plane, so it's not a money issue. As others have stated and know, the smaller planes fly very well. Not a compelling argument. Mike -----Original Message----- From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Robert L. Beaubien via NSRCA-discussion Sent: Thursday, January 3, 2019 4:27 PM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane... I do not like the proposed rule. I'm looking to get back to competitive flying this year and will likely use my 2m Focus II. This rule would also prevent using "hand me downs" from pilots in upper classes. I think adding any road blocks to participation would not be good. I have no problem with a sliding bonus scale based on model size and have no issues letting Sportsman and even Intermediate pilots use whatever plane they want. - Robert Beaubien - Drone Plastics “What do you call a firm of lawyers buried up to their necks in concrete? A failure to estimate the proper amount of concrete.” -----Original Message----- From: NSRCA-discussion On Behalf Of Dr. Mike Harrison via NSRCA-discussion Sent: Thursday, January 3, 2019 11:42 AM To: 'Curt Oberg' ; 'General pattern discussion' Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane... Read the proposal. there is a grandfather clause to address the current flyers. Another point is that practically no one owns just 1 plane, it would be ok to buy a smaller pattern plane. -----Original Message----- From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Curt Oberg via NSRCA-discussion Sent: Thursday, January 3, 2019 11:08 AM To: 'Bob Kane' ; 'General pattern discussion' Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane... Don't you just hate it when someone says out loud the thoughts that are in your head that you're afraid to throw out on the table. I fear that Mr. Kane may be right in the long run, sadly. I'm afraid that this rule change may actually have a negative impact in that it may chase out those already flying 2M planes in Intermediate who are not ready, and may never be ready to jump to Advanced. Curt Oberg -----Original Message----- From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Bob Kane via NSRCA-discussion Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2019 10:02 AM To: 'General pattern discussion' Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane... Call me a naysayer, but I don't think there is a dam thing we can do to stop the decline. We might slow it a bit, but it is terminal IMHO. It is impacting every facet of the hobby. Brick and mortar hobby shops are all but gone, those that are still surviving are not doing so on airplane sales. Companies are going under, trade shows are dying, clubs are folding due to aging membership, NATS participation is in decline, etc. There is not enough new blood getting into the sport. All this at a time when it has never been easier or cheaper to put a competitive airplane in the air. The signs are all there, I am just saying out loud. Add to that the pending doom of an FAA rule to limit the altitude to 400'? I am going to enjoy it while I can. Back to the cave. Bob Kane getterflash at yahoo.com <mailto:getterflash at yahoo.com>  -------------------------------------------- On Thu, 1/3/19, Dr. Mike Harrison via NSRCA-discussion wrote: Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane... To: "'Jas S'" , "'General pattern discussion'" Date: Thursday, January 3, 2019, 8:55 AM #yiv2223723423 #yiv2223723423 -- _filtered #yiv2223723423 {font-family:Helvetica;panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv2223723423 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv2223723423 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv2223723423 {panose-1:2 11 10 4 2 1 2 2 2 4;} _filtered #yiv2223723423 {font-family:UI;panose-1:2 11 5 2 4 2 4 2 2 3;} #yiv2223723423 #yiv2223723423 p.yiv2223723423MsoNormal, #yiv2223723423 li.yiv2223723423MsoNormal, #yiv2223723423 div.yiv2223723423MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:New serif;} #yiv2223723423 a:link, #yiv2223723423 span.yiv2223723423MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv2223723423 a:visited, #yiv2223723423 span.yiv2223723423MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv2223723423 p {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:New serif;} #yiv2223723423 p.yiv2223723423xdefault-style, #yiv2223723423 li.yiv2223723423xdefault-style, #yiv2223723423 div.yiv2223723423xdefault-style {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:New serif;} #yiv2223723423 span.yiv2223723423xsignature-truncate {} #yiv2223723423 span.yiv2223723423EmailStyle22 {font-family:sans-serif;color:#1F497D;} #yiv2223723423 span.yiv2223723423EmailStyle23 {font-family:sans-serif;color:windowtext;} #yiv2223723423 .yiv2223723423MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv2223723423 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} #yiv2223723423 div.yiv2223723423WordSection1 {} #yiv2223723423 I have read the discussions here with considerable interest. The decline in pattern has been steady and substantial. There are a number of indicators for this. I have submitted a rule proposal to encourage participation in this event. I would strongly encourage you all to contact your contest board member to pass this rule change proposal. you can type AMA rules change proposals and read for yourselves. I recommend you do that and read ALL of it before ripping it up. I have talked to a number of newcomers or those that would compete if it weren’t so expensive,etc and have based the proposal on that. everything I have read here supports the spirit and intent of the proposal. It would be a very healthy rules change for the event. Mike From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Jas S via NSRCA-discussion Sent: Monday, December 31, 2018 9:12 PM To: General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane... Bill- Have at it. If it helps promote pattern, let’s do it.Curt- lucky man, even with those tree landings 😉Hank- my first pattern contest was in 1981, with a Top Flite Headmaster with a Fox .40, and I was dead last by a looooong way. None of it to do with my plane, just my lack of ability. My following 2 ‘pattern planes’ were an MK Spinks Acromaster and a Godfrey 1/4 scale Laser 200 (in the red Bud Light scheme too). Did I win with those, nope, but again, cause of lack of skills, not the plane. It wasn’t until I really started to focus on my flying and practice did I see better results. True that this also came along the same time I got a pattern plane, but even that design was a ‘73 design, a year before I was born lol. My brother flew an Ugly Stick in the 1988 Nats and always out scored me on take-offs and landings cause he did that better than I did. My first TOC in 1994, I flew what was considered a small plane at 103” and a 70cc twin. I ended up 6th without the plane bonus and did the warm-ups in the finals. At that point my skill was taking over and I was out flying my planes.I flew with a 5UAP Futaba radio with no expo or mixes for years before getting my first computer radio, and funny enough only used 5 channels for a few years after getting it too lol. No expo, no mixes... just atv/end-points and trims. Here locally we’ve had many non-pattern planes competing over the years. Extra .40, foam Splendor, foam Explorer, Super Cessna, Intruder, small Vanquish and Acuity, Era 50, Curare, Kaos, Leader, Stick .40, 50cc Yak..... and many more I can’t think of at the moment. A lot of these have won or placed in the top 3 in their class and the pilots seemed to have fun when it was all said and done. I’m not saying this is always the case, but as we know, it’s up to all of us, bottom to top, to keep things fair and fun. Two things I had trouble with coming up the ranks was accepting any low scores I got in a flight and not being afraid to give scores using the 0-10 scale. I’ve probably been called names after pilots see the scores from me and compare them to another judge. I’m not a perfect judge, but I do think I am a fair and consistent judge. I will give Andrew Jesky a 1 if he flies what I think is a 1 in front of me (haven’t seen it yet), or a 10 to RVP (have done it before and will miss the opportunity to do again). Anyone is capable of flying any end of the spectrum during a flight at any time. If a pilot is honest with themselves and can see the mistakes (the hardest part), then there is no frustration in the scores given, just in the mistakes made. That’s where being on your own can hurt. I was on my own in practice until I moved to FL and was able to fly with Joe and Ryan during practice. As it turns out, it was also a bad thing cause when we judged each other, we knew the mistakes that most likely would/could be made. Generally we found that we scored each other harder than others just cause of that knowledge. I think that also made us better pilots, especially in those rounds lol. Sorry for the rambling. Happy New Year and now it’s time for me to go glue my battery tray together for my Epic. Strapping it to my landing gear former for the first 3 flights was ok for testing, but it’s time to practice on Thursday with our newest Jr member Kal. JasonJas iP On Dec 31, 2018, at 8:52 PM, Henry Pajari via NSRCA-discussion wrote:Hi Yep, I agree. Back in the late 70's I flew "A" pattern with an Ugly Stick and a steel case Super Tigre 60. Even took 3rd once, I could take off and land really well - the rest, well I brought the airplane home in less than 3 pieces. I have been lurking on this list and have been a member for several years, hoping for the time when I could get into pattern. Over the years I have seen all too many of those I call Elitists belittling others who don't have, want, or cannot afford the equipment that the FAI flyers have. I thank all of you who took the time to respond. My comment is really that if we are to build pattern as a mainstream interest again we need a way to get the average flyer, that has any interest in competition, to start. Once they have participated in a few contests and met the other guys I believe it could take off. In my area there are no pattern flyers in my club - Mather Aerospace Modelers. I believe there are a few in the SAM's club and there are none I am aware of in AMOS (I am a member) or El Dorado Hills (I am a member). This covers well over a thousand flyers. But thanks again for the good conversation. A lot more interesting than flying down wind😒 HankFrom: NSRCA-discussion on behalf of Phil Spelt via NSRCA-discussion Sent: Monday, December 31, 2018 2:53 PM To: John Ford; General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane... Thank you for the really, REALLY good comments, John. The same has been my experience over the past 30 years of pattern flying. I have seen almost no "elitists" in pattern. In fact, I can not think of even one, right now, thinking back... Phil Spelt, AMA 1294, Scientific Leader Member SPA L-18, Board Member, KCRC Emeritus Oliver Springs, TN (865) 435-1476v (865) 604-0541cOn December 31, 2018 at 5:10 PM John Ford via NSRCA-discussion wrote: Hank, You make some good points, but I have to jump in on this one. In the past 10 years, I've flown "competitively" at over 40 fields in 12 states and 4 countries. In the previous 20 years to that, maybe half as many venues. Over that 30-year period, contrary to being laughed off the field, I've observed many people show up with everything from a 40-sized sport plane to a 3D gasser, and some showing some significant wear and tear, requiring some Saturday morning surgery (with donated time and materials) from more experienced flyers to allow the new person to put in their rounds. I've even seem one senior competitor, unable to fix the newcomer's plane, offer one of his spare planes for the newcomer to fly. Yes, we have all seen one or two crassly snobby individuals who looked down their noses...not only at lesser planes, but at the entire Sportsman and Intermediate classes...but I've never personally come across a generally-present "Elitist" group that dampens the enjoyment of the sport for others, regardless of experience level or plane choice. In fact, the folks who tend to be financially-fortunate and who show up with the latest and greatest planes tend to be the most generous with their time and help for newcomers, or for anyone else. There are always a few exceptions, but it not the general rule...that I have personally seen. There is always someone on email lists such as this one (and others) that will play armchair expert and start describing what plane is required for this class and that class. It's not good information, to be polite about it It's ALWAYS been about the pilot and how much effort is devoted to practice...it's NEVER been about the plane. If you examine the NSRCA contest results and look for those same armchair experts, you'll usually find that they haven't flown a contest in decades. Again, exceptions exist, but anyone can win any class with a battle-worn 10-year old plane regardless of glow or electric, or with a smaller plane. I've seen it done in front of me several times. So has everyone else who goes to contests. As long as your plane can climb to the top of the box, it's good enough..just practice! You are in the hunt! JohnNSRCA 1673 On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 3:25 PM Henry Pajari via NSRCA-discussion < nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> > wrote: Hi Guys Thanks for addressing this issue. If we are truly down to 400 members, and want to stick around, I believe bringing in new blood is pivotal. I'm at work so I can't write all I want but I would like to dial expectations down a little more. I wanted to get started in pattern a few years back. I bought an ARF pattern plane for a 72 4 stroke (about 48 inch WS). I also bought a Swallow? for a 120 to 140. Life got in the way so I never finished them. I gave the smaller one to my son and he did some work then got a job in San Diego so the airplane sits in my shop. If I am lucky I will convert both to electric and get started. (I've been flying models since 1958 and RC since 1970 but mainly just for sport and socializing). Today you can get a good electric motor, ESC, and batteries for way cheap so getting these air-frames in the air is very feasible for anyone that thinks they may be interested in pattern. Why can't a flyer get one of these ARF's to get their feet wet and enter a couple of contests? If they like it they will invariably move up to what the Elitists call competitive equipment. My concern is that if someone showed up at a contest with one of these airplanes they would be laughed off the field. When I started playing golf 25 years ago or so I had a used set of clubs. I played terribly, like when I learned to fly pre-buddy box. When I got better I built my own clubs via Golfsmith. Now I have a nice set of Pings. Still play badly but look good getting out of the car 😉 Do any of you think I am on a useful track? Hank From: NSRCA-discussion on behalf of Tjpritchett via NSRCA-discussion Sent: Monday, December 31, 2018 12:04 PM To: Curt Oberg; General pattern discussion Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane.. Good perspective, an even better goal, and an excellent wife!! You’ve got it made Curt!! (See you in Andersonville!) Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 31, 2018, at 2:13 PM, Curt Oberg via NSRCA-discussion < nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> > wrote: > > When I started flying pattern back in the mid 70's, starting from scratch you could get into pattern flying with a very competitive rig for about $750. One hundred for a plane kit, $100 for a piped .61 Rossi, $400 for a ProLine Competition 6 radio including battery and servos, and about $150 for retracts, wheels, fuel tank, retract servos, finishing materials, etc. Of course you then had to build the plane first (which is probably becoming a lost art). Relatively speaking, considering inflation and the differential between salaries then and now, the cost of a present day, ARF pattern plane, set up ready to fly is probably very close in a percentage of your disposable income. It helps immensely when you have a wife like mine who encourages me buy the best equipment out there for my planes. Every time I hesitate to spend money on the hobby, she always tells me that if I don't spend the money, my son will when I'm gone. My cost for enjoying pattern flying would go down somewhat if I would quit landing in the top of the trees. > > Curt Oberg > > -----Original Message----- > From: NSRCA-discussion [ mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Jas S via NSRCA-discussion > Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2018 7:15 PM > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane... > > There’s always been talk about how expensive pattern is. All disciplines and hobbies are expensive, it’s just a choice one makes as to how much they want to spend. I’ve not had a ‘top of the line $$$$’ model since I was a teen when I wasn’t paying for my planes. Back then I was lucky enough to get the best planes on the market. Ten Plus planes back then were as good as the Yang/Oxai planes of today, and relative cost was about the same. Since being on my own, I’ve had more average planes, price point at least. Sponsorship allows me to outfit my planes with what I consider some of the best equipment, but even then I don’t bling out my planes at every turn. > > Example, Acuity set-up from the 2017 Nats in Blytheville, AR: > Plane: AJ Acuity $949 > Motor: AJ 5230-20P $260 > OS/Futaba ESC: $300 I think > Battery: ThunderPower 6000’s $220 > Servos: Futaba SBUS, 173’s, 171’s & 175 $950 now 🤭 > Receiver: Futaba 7006 $100 now > Falcon Spinner and Prop: $160 > Total works out to about: $2939 > > Most hardware is stock from the kit. Linkages, tail wheel assembly, sticky velcro hook side, axles, wheels. I changed the cowl screws, motor mounting screws (shorter) and velcro strap for the battery. > > I could have used, and not hurt my performance any, this equipment: > Futaba 9650’s, 9151’s & 9155 ($430) and saved -$520 > Futaba 617 receiver ($94) and saved -$6 > Castle 80a ESC ($145) and saved -$155 > Gator spinner ($18) and saved -$42 > APC prop ($44) and saved -$56 > Power Unlimited 5800’s ($186) and saved $34 > Shulman Aviation 6v regulator ($20) +$20 > Total saved: $658 > > So my Acuity set-up could be done for just about $2144. This is assuming you have NONE of the stuff to put in a 2m sized plane. > > Now my Epic set-up from the 2018 Muncie, IN Nats is a different price point: > CA Model Epic $2780 (Evo price, I think Epic + was less) > Brenner Contra: $1000 last year > Kontronic Motor: $500 > Add $100 for a 2nd Falcon prop > Subtract $60 for the Falcon spinner > Futaba servos/receiver, ThunderPower batteries and OS/Futaba ESC are the same prices as Acuity. > > I usually use 2mm carbon rod for pushrods, Du-Bro/Central Hobbies/F3AU links, MPI 2.25 wheels. > > Total around $6000 > > Again, using equipment that’s not ‘top of the line’, I can save about $2400. Most of the difference from the Acuity savings is swapping the contra for a Himax set-up. > > And the Yang/Oxai you can add another $~2500 to the total for a top-shelf set-up. > > All this being said, the BEST deals for a newbie to pattern are: > Any sport/pattern capable plane they are comfortable flying. > Any second hand pattern plane they can afford. > A good friend with a spare plane they will loan you 😁 > > Have a safe Happy New Year to everyone and always land wheels down 😉 > > Jason > Jas iP > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion > > _______________________________________________ > NSRCA-discussion mailing list > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -- John Ford Cell 1-816-365-0386_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion

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