[NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane...

Thu Jan 3 20:24:24 AKST 2019

In 2017, I flew a Great Planes ElectroStick in my first contest. Then I
moved to a well-used Venus II for the rest of the season. In 2018, I flew
intermediate with used 2m Onas and Integral airplanes. Now, I'm ready to
start my 3rd season with yet another used airplane, a Vanquish.

With all that said, I was very intimidated at my first contest as I had the
only non-pattern plane at the field. In fact, I wanted to fly a contest a
couple of years earlier.  But, after watching a contest, I couldn't see
spending the money on a 2m ship and didn't think it was possible with
something less.

So, I like the proposal. It forces the cost and the complexity down.  I
think that will help. I also think we should really push the club class and
promote flying club class at funfly type events.

Russ

On Jan 3, 2019 3:57 PM, "Daniel Lipton via NSRCA-discussion" <
nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:

This is probably information repeated somewhere else in the thread, but
can’t hurt to post it again:  (I’ve also posted this on the D7 facebook
page)

Some great alternatives, smaller than 2 meter.
Acuity 62” http://www.aj-aircraft.com/62-Acuity.html  $399   (ARF)
Wind S 50
http://www.advantagehobby.com/312886/SEBW50YB/Wind-S-50E50-90-GP-62-F3A-ARF-Yellow--Black-A208/?pcat=157
$399 ARF
   — Advantage sells a bunch of other Sebart pattern capable kits in in the
sub $500 range.

F3a-Olympus https://www.motionrc.com/products/fms-f3a-olympus-pnp $289  (PnP
with motor, esc, and servos)
Sig King Kobra:
https://sigmfg.com/collections/sig-kits/products/sig-king-kobra-kit  $158
(Full kit, gas)

A bit smaller still:
48” Vanquish http://extremeflightrc.com/48-Vanquish-MKII_p_274.html $179
(ARF)
Revolver: http://www.greatplanes.com/airplanes/gpma1018.php   $249  (ARF)
Tower Hobbies Kaos https://www.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXFMAK
$165  (ARF)

Great low cost 2  Meter options:
http://www.aj-aircraft.com/62-Acuity.html  $949  (ARF)
http://extremeflightrc.com/2M-Vanquish-RedWhiteYellow_p_140.html $649  (ARF)

On Jan 3, 2019, at 2:26 PM, Robert L. Beaubien via NSRCA-discussion <
nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:

I do not like the proposed rule.  I'm looking to get back to competitive
flying this year and will likely use my 2m Focus II.  This rule would also
prevent using "hand me downs" from pilots in upper classes.  I think adding
any road blocks to participation would not be good.  I have no problem with
a sliding bonus scale based on model size and have no issues letting
Sportsman and even Intermediate pilots use whatever plane they want.

- Robert Beaubien
- Drone Plastics

“What do you call a firm of lawyers buried up to their necks in concrete?
A failure to estimate the proper amount of concrete.”

-----Original Message-----
From: NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> On Behalf
Of Dr. Mike Harrison via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Thursday, January 3, 2019 11:42 AM
To: 'Curt Oberg' <obergc at cox.net>; 'General pattern discussion' <
nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane...

Read the proposal.  there is a grandfather clause to address the current
flyers.  Another point is that practically no one owns just 1 plane,  it
would be ok to buy a smaller pattern plane.

-----Original Message-----
From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
<nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>] On Behalf Of Curt Oberg via
NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Thursday, January 3, 2019 11:08 AM
To: 'Bob Kane' <getterflash at yahoo.com>; 'General pattern discussion' <
nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane...

Don't you just hate it when someone says out loud the thoughts that are in
your head that you're afraid to throw out on the table.  I fear that Mr.
Kane may be right in the long run, sadly.  I'm afraid that this rule change
may actually have a negative impact in that it may chase out those already
flying 2M planes in Intermediate who are not ready, and may never be ready
to jump to Advanced.
Curt Oberg

-----Original Message-----
From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
<nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>] On Behalf Of Bob Kane via
NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2019 10:02 AM
To: 'General pattern discussion'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane...

Call me a naysayer, but I don't think there is a dam thing we can do to
stop the decline.  We might slow it a bit, but it is terminal IMHO.  It is
impacting every facet of the hobby.   Brick and mortar hobby shops are all
but gone, those that are still surviving are not doing so on airplane
sales. Companies are going under, trade shows are dying, clubs are folding
due to aging membership, NATS participation is in decline, etc.  There is
not enough new blood getting into the sport.  All this at a time when it
has never been easier or cheaper to put a competitive airplane in the air.
The signs are all there, I am just saying out loud. Add to that the pending
doom of an FAA rule to limit the altitude to 400'?

I am going to enjoy it while I can. Back to the cave.

Bob Kane getterflash at yahoo.com

--------------------------------------------
On Thu, 1/3/19, Dr. Mike Harrison via NSRCA-discussion <
nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane...
To: "'Jas S'" <justanotherflyr at gmail.com>, "'General pattern discussion'" <
nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Date: Thursday, January 3, 2019, 8:55 AM

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#yiv2223723423 I have read the discussions here  with considerable
interest.  The decline in pattern has  been steady and substantial.  There
are a number of  indicators for this.  I have submitted a rule proposal to
 encourage participation in this event.  I would strongly  encourage you
all to contact your contest board member to  pass this rule change
proposal.  you can type AMA rules  change proposals and read for
yourselves.  I recommend you  do that and read ALL of it before ripping it
up. I have  talked to a number of newcomers or those that would compete  if
it weren’t so expensive,etc and have based the proposal  on that.
 everything I have read here supports the spirit  and intent of the
proposal.  It would be a very healthy
rules change for the event.  Mike   From: NSRCA-discussion
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
<nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>] On  Behalf Of Jas S via
NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2018 9:12
PM
To: General pattern discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price
for a pattern plane...  Bill- Have at it. If it helps  promote pattern,
let’s do it.Curt- lucky man, even with  those tree landings 😉Hank- my
first pattern  contest was in 1981, with a Top Flite Headmaster with a Fox
 .40, and I was dead last by a looooong way. None of it to do  with my
plane, just my lack of ability. My following 2  ‘pattern planes’ were an MK
Spinks Acromaster and a  Godfrey 1/4 scale Laser 200 (in the red Bud Light
scheme  too). Did I win with those, nope, but again, cause of lack  of
skills, not the plane. It wasn’t until I really started  to focus on my
flying and practice did I see better results.
True that this also came along the same time I got a pattern  plane, but
even that design was a ‘73 design, a year  before I was born lol. My
brother flew an Ugly Stick in the
1988 Nats and always out scored me on take-offs and landings  cause he did
that better than I did. My first TOC in 1994, I flew  what was considered a
small plane at 103” and a 70cc twin.
I ended up 6th without the plane bonus and did the warm-ups  in the finals.
At that point my skill was taking over and I  was out flying my planes.I
flew with a 5UAP Futaba  radio with no expo or mixes for years before
getting my  first computer radio, and funny enough only used 5 channels
 for a few years after getting it too lol. No expo, no  mixes... just
atv/end-points and trims. Here locally we’ve had many  non-pattern planes
competing over the years. Extra .40, foam  Splendor, foam Explorer, Super
Cessna, Intruder, small  Vanquish and Acuity, Era 50, Curare, Kaos, Leader,
Stick  .40, 50cc Yak..... and many more I can’t think of at the  moment. A
lot of these have won or placed in the top 3 in  their class and the pilots
seemed to have fun when it was  all said and done. I’m not saying this is
always the case,  but as we know, it’s up to all of us, bottom to top, to
keep things fair and fun.   Two things I had trouble with
coming up the ranks was accepting any low scores I got in a  flight and not
being afraid to give scores using the 0-10  scale. I’ve probably been
called names after pilots see  the scores from me and compare them to
another judge. I’m  not a perfect judge, but I do think I am a fair and
 consistent judge. I will give Andrew Jesky a 1 if he flies  what I think
is a 1 in front of me (haven’t seen it yet),  or a 10 to RVP (have done it
before and will miss the  opportunity to do again). Anyone is capable of
flying any  end of the spectrum during a flight at any time. If a pilot  is
honest with themselves and can see the mistakes (the  hardest part), then
there is no frustration in the scores  given, just in the mistakes made.
That’s where being on  your own can hurt. I was on my own in practice until
I moved  to FL and was able to fly with Joe and Ryan during practice.
As it turns out, it was also a bad thing cause when we  judged each other,
we knew the mistakes that most likely  would/could be made. Generally we
found that we scored each  other harder than others just cause of that
knowledge. I  think that also made us better pilots, especially in those
 rounds lol.
 Sorry for
the rambling. Happy New Year and now it’s time for me to  go glue my
battery tray together for my Epic. Strapping it  to my landing gear former
for the first 3 flights was ok for  testing, but it’s time to practice on
Thursday with our  newest Jr member Kal.
JasonJas iP
On Dec 31,
2018, at 8:52 PM, Henry Pajari via NSRCA-discussion <
nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
wrote:Hi
 Yep, I
agree.  Back in the late 70's I flew "A"
pattern with an Ugly Stick and a steel case Super Tigre  60.  Even took 3rd
once, I could take off and land really  well - the rest, well I brought the
airplane home in less  than 3 pieces.
 I have been
lurking on this list and have been a member for several  years, hoping for
the time when I could get into pattern.
Over the years I have seen all too many of those I call  Elitists
belittling others who don't have, want, or  cannot afford the equipment
that the FAI flyers  have.
 I thank all of
you who took the time to respond.  My comment is really  that if we are to
build pattern as a mainstream interest  again we need a way to get the
average flyer, that has any  interest in competition, to start.  Once they
have  participated in a few contests and met the other guys I  believe it
could take off.  In my area there are no pattern  flyers in my club -
Mather Aerospace Modelers.  I believe  there are a few in the SAM's club
and there are none I  am aware of in AMOS (I am a member) or El Dorado
Hills (I am  a member).  This covers well over a thousand  flyers.
 But
thanks again for the good conversation.  A lot more  interesting than
flying down wind😒
 HankFrom: NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
on behalf of Phil Spelt via NSRCA-discussion <
nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2018 2:53
PM
To: John Ford; General pattern
discussion
Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane...
 Thank you for the really, REALLY good comments, John.
The same has been my experience over the past 30 years of  pattern flying.
 I have seen almost no
"elitists" in pattern.  In fact, I can not think  of even one, right now,
thinking back...  Phil Spelt, AMA 1294, Scientific  Leader Member  SPA
L-18, Board Member, KCRC  Emeritus  Oliver Springs, TN (865) 435-1476v
(865)  604-0541cOn December 31, 2018 at 5:10  PM John Ford via
NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
wrote: Hank,
You make some
good points, but I have to jump in on this  one. In  the past 10 years,
I've flown "competitively"
at over 40 fields in 12 states and 4 countries. In the  previous 20 years
to that, maybe half as many  venues. Over that 30-year period,  contrary to
being laughed off the field, I've observed  many people show up with
everything from a 40-sized sport  plane to a 3D gasser, and some showing
some significant wear  and tear, requiring some Saturday morning surgery
(with  donated time and materials) from more experienced flyers to  allow
the new person to put in their rounds. I've even  seem one senior
competitor, unable to fix the newcomer's  plane, offer one of his spare
planes for the newcomer to  fly.
 Yes, we
have all seen one or two crassly snobby individuals who  looked down their
noses...not only at lesser planes, but at  the entire Sportsman and
Intermediate classes...but I've  never personally come across a
generally-present  "Elitist" group that dampens the enjoyment of the  sport
for others, regardless of experience level or plane  choice. In fact, the
folks who tend to be  financially-fortunate and who show up with the latest
and  greatest planes tend to be the most generous with their time  and help
for newcomers, or for anyone else. There are always  a few exceptions, but
it not the general rule...that I have
personally seen.   There is always someone on
email lists such as this one (and others) that will play  armchair expert
and start describing what plane is required  for this class and that class.
It's not good  information, to be polite about it It's ALWAYS been  about
the pilot and how much effort is devoted to  practice...it's NEVER been
about the plane. If you  examine the NSRCA contest results and look for
those same  armchair experts, you'll usually find that they  haven't flown
a contest in decades. Again, exceptions  exist, but anyone can win any
class with a battle-worn  10-year old plane regardless of glow or electric,
or with a  smaller plane. I've seen it done in front of me several  times.
So has everyone else who goes to  contests.
 As long
as your plane can climb to the top of the box, it's good
enough..just practice! You are in the hunt!  JohnNSRCA 1673          On
Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 3:25
PM Henry Pajari via NSRCA-discussion < nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
wrote: Hi
Guys
 Thanks for
addressing this issue.  If we are truly down to 400  members, and want to
stick around, I believe bringing in new  blood is pivotal.
 I'm at
work so I can't write all I want but I would like to  dial expectations
down a little  more.
 I wanted to
get started in pattern a few years back.  I bought an ARF  pattern plane
for a 72 4 stroke (about 48 inch WS).  I also  bought a Swallow? for a 120
to 140.  Life got in the way so  I never finished them.  I gave the smaller
one to my son  and he did some work then got a job in San Diego so the
 airplane sits in my shop.
 If I am lucky
I will convert both to electric and get started.  (I've  been flying models
since 1958 and RC since 1970 but mainly  just for sport and socializing).
 Today you can
get a good electric motor, ESC, and batteries for way cheap  so getting
these air-frames in the air is very feasible for  anyone that thinks they
may be interested in  pattern.
 Why can't
a flyer get one of these ARF's to get their feet wet and  enter a couple of
contests?  If they like it they will  invariably move up to what the
Elitists call competitive  equipment.  My concern is that if someone showed
up at a  contest with one of these airplanes they would be laughed  off the
field.
 When I started
playing golf 25 years ago or so I had a used set of clubs.
I played terribly, like when I learned to fly pre-buddy  box.  When I got
better I built my own clubs via  Golfsmith.  Now I have a nice set of
Pings.  Still play  badly but look good getting out of the car 😉
 Do any of you
think I am on a useful track?
 Hank From: NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
on behalf of Tjpritchett via NSRCA-discussion <
nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent:
Monday, December 31, 2018 12:04 PM
To: Curt
Oberg; General pattern discussion
Subject:
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane..
 Good perspective, an even
better goal, and an excellent wife!!  You’ve got it made  Curt!!
(See you in Andersonville!)

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 31, 2018, at 2:13

PM, Curt Oberg via NSRCA-discussion < nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
wrote:

When I

started flying pattern back in the mid 70's, starting  from scratch you
could get into pattern flying with a very  competitive rig for about $750.
One hundred for a plane kit,
$100 for a piped .61 Rossi, $400 for a ProLine Competition 6  radio
including battery and servos, and about $150 for  retracts, wheels, fuel
tank, retract servos, finishing  materials, etc.  Of course you then had to
build the plane  first (which is probably becoming a lost art).  Relatively
 speaking, considering inflation and the differential between  salaries
then and now, the cost of a present day, ARF  pattern plane, set up ready
to fly is probably very close in  a percentage of your disposable income.
It helps immensely  when you have a wife like mine who encourages me buy
the  best equipment out there for my planes.  Every time I  hesitate to
spend money on the hobby, she always tells me  that if I don't spend the
money, my son will when  I'm gone.  My cost for enjoying pattern flying
would go  down somewhat if I would quit landing in the top of the  trees.

Curt

Oberg

-----Original Message-----

From:

NSRCA-discussion [ mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
<nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>]
On Behalf Of Jas S via NSRCA-discussion  > Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2018
7:15 PM

To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org

Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for  a pattern plane...

There’s always been talk about how

expensive pattern is. All disciplines and hobbies are  expensive, it’s just
a choice one makes as to how much  they want to spend. I’ve not had a ‘top
of the line  $$$$’ model since I was a teen when I wasn’t paying for  my
planes. Back then I was lucky enough to get the best  planes on the market.
Ten Plus planes back then were as good  as the Yang/Oxai planes of today,
and relative cost was  about the same. Since being on my own, I’ve had more
 average planes, price point at least. Sponsorship allows me  to outfit my
planes with what I consider some of the best  equipment, but even then I
don’t bling out my planes at  every turn.

Example, Acuity set-up from the 2017 Nats in Blytheville,
AR:

Plane: AJ Acuity $949
Motor: AJ 5230-20P $260
OS/Futaba ESC: $300 I think
Battery: ThunderPower 6000’s $220
Servos: Futaba SBUS, 173’s, 171’s

& 175 $950 now 🤭

Receiver:

Futaba 7006 $100 now

Falcon Spinner

and Prop: $160

Total works out to

about: $2939

Most hardware is stock from the kit. Linkages, tail wheel  assembly, sticky
velcro hook side, axles, wheels. I changed  the cowl screws, motor mounting
screws (shorter) and velcro  strap for the battery.

I could have used, and not hurt my

performance any, this equipment:

Futaba 9650’s, 9151’s & 9155 ($430) and saved -$520

Futaba 617 receiver ($94) and saved

-$6

Castle 80a ESC ($145) and saved

-$155

Gator spinner ($18) and saved

-$42

APC prop ($44) and saved -$56
Power Unlimited 5800’s ($186) and saved

$34

Shulman Aviation 6v regulator

($20) +$20

Total saved: $658

So my Acuity set-up

could be done for just about $2144. This is assuming you  have NONE of the
stuff to put in a 2m sized plane.

Now my Epic set-up

from the 2018 Muncie, IN Nats is a different price point:

CA Model Epic $2780 (Evo price, I

think Epic + was less)

Brenner Contra:

$1000 last year

Kontronic Motor: $500

Add $100 for a 2nd Falcon prop
Subtract $60 for the Falcon spinner
Futaba servos/receiver, ThunderPower

batteries and OS/Futaba ESC are the same prices as Acuity.

I usually use

2mm carbon rod for pushrods, Du-Bro/Central Hobbies/F3AU  links, MPI 2.25
wheels.

Total around $6000

Again, using equipment that’s not

‘top of the line’, I can save about $2400. Most of the  difference from the
Acuity savings is swapping the contra  for a Himax set-up.

And the Yang/Oxai you can add another

$~2500 to the total for a top-shelf set-up.

All this being said,

the BEST deals for a newbie to pattern are:

Any sport/pattern capable plane they are  comfortable flying.
Any second hand

pattern plane they can afford.

A good

friend with a spare plane they will loan you 😁

Have a safe Happy New Year to everyone and  always land wheels down 😉

Jason
Jas iP

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