[NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane...

Thu Jan 3 12:03:58 AKST 2019

Thank you Mark for seeing the point of the proposal.  I will have to respond a significant amount to the objections so I apologize if I am a bit too brief sometimes.

First of all, being stable is not necessarily a good thing particularly if it is doing no good.  One of the things I dislike about the way the contest board works is the long 2 year cycle and all the red tape that goes with it.  It creates a particularly inflexible process that encourages a stable environment that can be detrimental to the event.  Such is the case here.  

There is always risk with any change so there is the possibility of the change not being effective or possibly harmful.  However, the way it is going now, we can’t do much more harm than the current path.  

As far as a “thriving used plane market” that doesn’t really save any money or invite those new to the sport. The maintenance, batteries, etc, issues are still there.    Most people have no interest in used planes.  They want their own plane, not a hand-me-down.  The event needs to be so that someone can try it out without spending $2000-4000 or more.  If they don’t like it they will have an inexpensive easy to use pattern plane in their stable.  

From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Atwood, Mark via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Thursday, January 3, 2019 2:18 PM
To: Daniel Lipton <dlipton at me.com>; General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane...

I think what Mike is going for here is less about ALLOWING less intimidating planes, but rather REQUIRING less intimidating planes.    Just because you can use a small plane in the entry classes, most people starting out won’t want to if they feel they’re immediately going to be outclassed by better equipment.  It’s definitely a mental barrier to entry for many.     

That said, I too am concerned about unintended consequences.  We’ve had a VERY long run of stable rules which I’m  a huge advocate of.  It’s allowed the used plane market to thrive which is probably the best thing for holding down costs.   Mandating away the use of old 2m planes in the entry classes will reduce the value of a lot of old Focus’, Brio’s, Smargd’s, and a myriad of other 5-10 year old 2m birds down to zero.  It will take a decade to recreate the hand me down market.

That may be worth it.  Just a lot to consider.

-M 

MARK ATWOOD

o.  (440) 229-2502

c.  (216) 316-2489

e.   <mailto:atwoodm at paragon-inc.com> atwoodm at paragon-inc.com

Paragon Consulting, Inc.

5900 Landerbrook Drive, Suite 205, Cleveland Ohio, 44124

 <http://www.paragon-inc.com/> www.paragon-inc.com

Powering The Digital Experience

On Jan 3, 2019, at 2:40 PM, Daniel Lipton via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> > wrote:

Personally, I worry that excluding “standard” patter planes in Sportsman and intermediate will have the unintended consequence of forcing people to spend more money when they’re ready do move up to Advanced.   Hard to know for sure.  I prefer an approach like the bonus points for smaller aircraft.   I am also in favor of allowing an “AMA Legal” airplane in  at least Sportsman if not Intermediate as well.  This could get some of the IMAC people with the larger aircraft to try pattern competition as well. 

What Im not comfortable seeing is for somebody who does want to invest in pattern with dedicated equipment, but start out in Sportsman and Intermediate, to be forced to buy a new plane when they move up. They may want (though perhaps a less expensive one like the Acuity 2M, or Vanquish 2M) is a 2M plane from the get-go.  Why prevent this?

In summary, we should look for ways to have the smaller, less expensive, easier to transport planes have a more level playing field - where pilot skill is the factor, not so much the plane.  that being said, a 60” plane (like the smaller Acuity, the Mytho-S 50, etc…) can easily compete against 2M planes in the lower classes in the hands of a practiced pilot.    So, perhaps the issue here is more about getting the message out than changing the rules.  At the AMA expo west, I printed up copies of Peter Vogel’s article about low cost pattern solutions, and handed them out to people at the booth.  People were definitely intrigued, and surprised to find that one could compete without a 2M plane.   

In the name of making sure people don’t need to spend the big $$ to try out pattern, In my district, when I emailed all of the CDs about putting the schedule together, I encouraged them to try out the following to try and increase participation:

1.  Relax or eliminate the box for Sportsman and Intermediate

2.  Allow any AMA legal aircraft for Sportsman.  (This would enable the people with larger IMAC style or other planes to give pattern a try ).

3.  Offer club class

4.  If the CD chooses to do so, Promote these things in the club where the contest is taking place.

CDs must be aware that if they do choose to deviate from the AMA rules (#1 and #2), they must note that on the form they submit to the AMA when applying for the event sanction, and if done, this is completely allowable, as I understand it. (so I was told by “experts”)

On Jan 3, 2019, at 7:43 AM, Anthony Romano via NSRCA-discussion < <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:

Interesting proposal but will everyone who is currently fly an older 2m plane be out of those classes in two years? At most D1 contest the majority are flying 2m planes, which is a big part of the problem. 

I had suggested a score bonus based on wingspan but it never seems to get much attention. 2m plane 100% score, 60" span 102% score, 50" span 104% score, etc. The numbers will need to be adjusted for what is available but this allows anyone to bring whatever plane they are comfortable with and still compete on a relatively even scale.

Anthony

  _____  

From: NSRCA-discussion < <mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> on behalf of Charlie Barrera via NSRCA-discussion < <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 3, 2019 10:00 AM
To:  <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane... 

Mike H and John F,

I've read your proposal. I think it's a good proposal. When I started flying pattern about 20 years ago, I flew Novice (the lowest class at that time) with a Flash, powered by a .46 glow engine. I flew Novice for one year, and was very successful with my progression. However, I knew to move up, I had to have competitive equipment. This was a large expense for me, because at the time, I needed a 2 meter plane with the appropriate power. The size that you are proposing limits the size and expense. These smaller planes fly very well and are very competitive. I've spoken with Mike Mueller at F3A Unlimited, and he has told me that those that are just starting out in pattern usually ask for a smaller version of the full 2 meter model. The smaller models sell very well, but might stop someone from getting into pattern because they feel that to be competitive they must have a full 2 meter plane. I think leveling the playing field will help promote the hobby. Also, they have until Intermediate to decide if they must invest the bigger bucks to advance on to the next level. It's a good introductory size for the beginning pattern competitor.

...Charlie

On 01/03/2019 08:24 AM, Jon Dieringer via NSRCA-discussion wrote:

I found it here:

 <https://www.modelaircraft.org/sites/default/files/Comp/RCA20-02.pdf> https://www.modelaircraft.org/sites/default/files/Comp/RCA20-02.pdf

On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 9:22 AM Matthew Finley via NSRCA-discussion < <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:

Sounds good, Whats the Proposal ? Or link ? Thank you !

  _____  

From: NSRCA-discussion < <mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> on behalf of Randy Forbus via NSRCA-discussion < <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 3, 2019 9:12 AM
To: 'Jas S'; Dr. Mike Harrison; General pattern discussion

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane... 

Whats the proposal

  _____  

From: NSRCA-discussion < <mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> on behalf of Dr. Mike Harrison via NSRCA-discussion < <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 3, 2019 1:55 PM
To: 'Jas S'; 'General pattern discussion'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane... 

I have read the discussions here with considerable interest.  The decline in pattern has been steady and substantial.  There are a number of indicators for this.  I have submitted a rule proposal to encourage participation in this event.  I would strongly encourage you all to contact your contest board member to pass this rule change proposal.  you can type AMA rules change proposals and read for yourselves.  I recommend you do that and read ALL of it before ripping it up. I have talked to a number of newcomers or those that would compete if it weren’t so expensive,etc and have based the proposal on that.  everything I have read here supports the spirit and intent of the proposal.  It would be a very healthy rules change for the event.

Mike

From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto: <mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Jas S via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2018 9:12 PM
To: General pattern discussion < <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane...

Bill- Have at it. If it helps promote pattern, let’s do it.

Curt- lucky man, even with those tree landings 😉

Hank- my first pattern contest was in 1981, with a Top Flite Headmaster with a Fox .40, and I was dead last by a looooong way. None of it to do with my plane, just my lack of ability. My following 2 ‘pattern planes’ were an MK Spinks Acromaster and a Godfrey 1/4 scale Laser 200 (in the red Bud Light scheme too). Did I win with those, nope, but again, cause of lack of skills, not the plane. It wasn’t until I really started to focus on my flying and practice did I see better results. True that this also came along the same time I got a pattern plane, but even that design was a ‘73 design, a year before I was born lol. My brother flew an Ugly Stick in the 1988 Nats and always out scored me on take-offs and landings cause he did that better than I did. 

My first TOC in 1994, I flew what was considered a small plane at 103” and a 70cc twin. I ended up 6th without the plane bonus and did the warm-ups in the finals. At that point my skill was taking over and I was out flying my planes.

I flew with a 5UAP Futaba radio with no expo or mixes for years before getting my first computer radio, and funny enough only used 5 channels for a few years after getting it too lol. No expo, no mixes... just atv/end-points and trims. 

Here locally we’ve had many non-pattern planes competing over the years. Extra .40, foam Splendor, foam Explorer, Super Cessna, Intruder, small Vanquish and Acuity, Era 50, Curare, Kaos, Leader, Stick .40, 50cc Yak..... and many more I can’t think of at the moment. A lot of these have won or placed in the top 3 in their class and the pilots seemed to have fun when it was all said and done. I’m not saying this is always the case, but as we know, it’s up to all of us, bottom to top, to keep things fair and fun. 

Two things I had trouble with coming up the ranks was accepting any low scores I got in a flight and not being afraid to give scores using the 0-10 scale. I’ve probably been called names after pilots see the scores from me and compare them to another judge. I’m not a perfect judge, but I do think I am a fair and consistent judge. I will give Andrew Jesky a 1 if he flies what I think is a 1 in front of me (haven’t seen it yet), or a 10 to RVP (have done it before and will miss the opportunity to do again). Anyone is capable of flying any end of the spectrum during a flight at any time. If a pilot is honest with themselves and can see the mistakes (the hardest part), then there is no frustration in the scores given, just in the mistakes made. That’s where being on your own can hurt. I was on my own in practice until I moved to FL and was able to fly with Joe and Ryan during practice. As it turns out, it was also a bad thing cause when we judged each other, we knew the mistakes that most likely would/could be made. Generally we found that we scored each other harder than others just cause of that knowledge. I think that also made us better pilots, especially in those rounds lol.

Sorry for the rambling. Happy New Year and now it’s time for me to go glue my battery tray together for my Epic. Strapping it to my landing gear former for the first 3 flights was ok for testing, but it’s time to practice on Thursday with our newest Jr member Kal.

Jason

Jas iP

On Dec 31, 2018, at 8:52 PM, Henry Pajari via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> > wrote:

Hi

Yep, I agree.  Back in the late 70's I flew "A" pattern with an Ugly Stick and a steel case Super Tigre 60.  Even took 3rd once, I could take off and land really well - the rest, well I brought the airplane home in less than 3 pieces.

I have been lurking on this list and have been a member for several years, hoping for the time when I could get into pattern.  Over the years I have seen all too many of those I call Elitists belittling others who don't have, want, or cannot afford the equipment that the FAI flyers have.  

I thank all of you who took the time to respond.  My comment is really that if we are to build pattern as a mainstream interest again we need a way to get the average flyer, that has any interest in competition, to start.  Once they have participated in a few contests and met the other guys I believe it could take off.  In my area there are no pattern flyers in my club - Mather Aerospace Modelers.  I believe there are a few in the SAM's club and there are none I am aware of in AMOS (I am a member) or El Dorado Hills (I am a member).  This covers well over a thousand flyers.

But thanks again for the good conversation.  A lot more interesting than flying down wind😒

Hank

  _____  

From: NSRCA-discussion < <mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> on behalf of Phil Spelt via NSRCA-discussion < <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2018 2:53 PM
To: John Ford; General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane...

Thank you for the really, REALLY good comments, John.  The same has been my experience over the past 30 years of pattern flying.

I have seen almost no "elitists" in pattern.  In fact, I can not think of even one, right now, thinking back...

Phil Spelt, AMA 1294, Scientific Leader Member
SPA L-18, Board Member, KCRC Emeritus
Oliver Springs, TN (865) 435-1476v (865) 604-0541c

On December 31, 2018 at 5:10 PM John Ford via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> > wrote:

Hank, 

You make some good points, but I have to jump in on this one. 

In the past 10 years, I've flown "competitively" at over 40 fields in 12 states and 4 countries. In the previous 20 years to that, maybe half as many venues. 

Over that 30-year period, contrary to being laughed off the field, I've observed many people show up with everything from a 40-sized sport plane to a 3D gasser, and some showing some significant wear and tear, requiring some Saturday morning surgery (with donated time and materials) from more experienced flyers to allow the new person to put in their rounds. I've even seem one senior competitor, unable to fix the newcomer's plane, offer one of his spare planes for the newcomer to fly. 

Yes, we have all seen one or two crassly snobby individuals who looked down their noses...not only at lesser planes, but at the entire Sportsman and Intermediate classes...but I've never personally come across a generally-present "Elitist" group that dampens the enjoyment of the sport for others, regardless of experience level or plane choice. In fact, the folks who tend to be financially-fortunate and who show up with the latest and greatest planes tend to be the most generous with their time and help for newcomers, or for anyone else. There are always a few exceptions, but it not the general rule...that I have personally seen. 

There is always someone on email lists such as this one (and others) that will play armchair expert and start describing what plane is required for this class and that class. It's not good information, to be polite about it It's ALWAYS been about the pilot and how much effort is devoted to practice...it's NEVER been about the plane. If you examine the NSRCA contest results and look for those same armchair experts, you'll usually find that they haven't flown a contest in decades. Again, exceptions exist, but anyone can win any class with a battle-worn 10-year old plane regardless of glow or electric, or with a smaller plane. I've seen it done in front of me several times. So has everyone else who goes to contests. 

As long as your plane can climb to the top of the box, it's good enough..just practice! You are in the hunt!

John

NSRCA 1673

On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 3:25 PM Henry Pajari via NSRCA-discussion < nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> > wrote:

Hi Guys

Thanks for addressing this issue.  If we are truly down to 400 members, and want to stick around, I believe bringing in new blood is pivotal.

I'm at work so I can't write all I want but I would like to dial expectations down a little more.

I wanted to get started in pattern a few years back.  I bought an ARF pattern plane for a 72 4 stroke (about 48 inch WS).  I also bought a Swallow? for a 120 to 140.  Life got in the way so I never finished them.  I gave the smaller one to my son and he did some work then got a job in San Diego so the airplane sits in my shop.

If I am lucky I will convert both to electric and get started.  (I've been flying models since 1958 and RC since 1970 but mainly just for sport and socializing).  

Today you can get a good electric motor, ESC, and batteries for way cheap so getting these air-frames in the air is very feasible for anyone that thinks they may be interested in pattern.

Why can't a flyer get one of these ARF's to get their feet wet and enter a couple of contests?  If they like it they will invariably move up to what the Elitists call competitive equipment.  My concern is that if someone showed up at a contest with one of these airplanes they would be laughed off the field.

When I started playing golf 25 years ago or so I had a used set of clubs.  I played terribly, like when I learned to fly pre-buddy box.  When I got better I built my own clubs via Golfsmith.  Now I have a nice set of Pings.  Still play badly but look good getting out of the car 😉

Do any of you think I am on a useful track?

Hank

  _____  

From: NSRCA-discussion < <mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> on behalf of Tjpritchett via NSRCA-discussion < <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2018 12:04 PM
To: Curt Oberg; General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane..

Good perspective, an even better goal, and an excellent wife!!  You’ve got it made Curt!! 
(See you in Andersonville!) 

Sent from my iPhone 

> On Dec 31, 2018, at 2:13 PM, Curt Oberg via NSRCA-discussion < nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> > wrote: 
> 
> When I started flying pattern back in the mid 70's, starting from scratch you could get into pattern flying with a very competitive rig for about $750. One hundred for a plane kit, $100 for a piped .61 Rossi, $400 for a ProLine Competition 6 radio including battery and servos, and about $150 for retracts, wheels, fuel tank, retract servos, finishing materials, etc.  Of course you then had to build the plane first (which is probably becoming a lost art).  Relatively speaking, considering inflation and the differential between salaries then and now, the cost of a present day, ARF pattern plane, set up ready to fly is probably very close in a percentage of your disposable income.  It helps immensely when you have a wife like mine who encourages me buy the best equipment out there for my planes.  Every time I hesitate to spend money on the hobby, she always tells me that if I don't spend the money, my son will when I'm gone.  My cost for enjoying pattern flying would go down somewhat if I would quit landing in the top of the trees. 
> 
> Curt Oberg 
> 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: NSRCA-discussion [ mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Jas S via NSRCA-discussion 
> Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2018 7:15 PM 
> To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  
> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane... 
> 
> There’s always been talk about how expensive pattern is. All disciplines and hobbies are expensive, it’s just a choice one makes as to how much they want to spend. I’ve not had a ‘top of the line $$$$’ model since I was a teen when I wasn’t paying for my planes. Back then I was lucky enough to get the best planes on the market. Ten Plus planes back then were as good as the Yang/Oxai planes of today, and relative cost was about the same. Since being on my own, I’ve had more average planes, price point at least. Sponsorship allows me to outfit my planes with what I consider some of the best equipment, but even then I don’t bling out my planes at every turn. 
> 
> Example, Acuity set-up from the 2017 Nats in Blytheville, AR: 
> Plane: AJ Acuity $949 
> Motor: AJ 5230-20P $260 
> OS/Futaba ESC: $300 I think 
> Battery: ThunderPower 6000’s $220 
> Servos: Futaba SBUS, 173’s, 171’s & 175 $950 now 🤭 
> Receiver: Futaba 7006 $100 now 
> Falcon Spinner and Prop: $160 
> Total works out to about: $2939 
> 
> Most hardware is stock from the kit. Linkages, tail wheel assembly, sticky velcro hook side, axles, wheels. I changed the cowl screws, motor mounting screws (shorter) and velcro strap for the battery. 
> 
> I could have used, and not hurt my performance any, this equipment: 
> Futaba 9650’s, 9151’s & 9155 ($430) and saved -$520 
> Futaba 617 receiver ($94) and saved -$6 
> Castle 80a ESC ($145) and saved -$155 
> Gator spinner ($18) and saved -$42 
> APC prop ($44) and saved -$56 
> Power Unlimited 5800’s ($186) and saved $34 
> Shulman Aviation 6v regulator ($20) +$20 
> Total saved: $658 
> 
> So my Acuity set-up could be done for just about $2144. This is assuming you have NONE of the stuff to put in a 2m sized plane. 
> 
> Now my Epic set-up from the 2018 Muncie, IN Nats is a different price point: 
> CA Model Epic $2780 (Evo price, I think Epic + was less) 
> Brenner Contra: $1000 last year 
> Kontronic Motor: $500 
> Add $100 for a 2nd Falcon prop 
> Subtract $60 for the Falcon spinner 
> Futaba servos/receiver, ThunderPower batteries and OS/Futaba ESC are the same prices as Acuity. 
> 
> I usually use 2mm carbon rod for pushrods, Du-Bro/Central Hobbies/F3AU links, MPI 2.25 wheels. 
> 
> Total around $6000 
> 
> Again, using equipment that’s not ‘top of the line’, I can save about $2400. Most of the difference from the Acuity savings is swapping the contra for a Himax set-up. 
> 
> And the Yang/Oxai you can add another $~2500 to the total for a top-shelf set-up. 
> 
> All this being said, the BEST deals for a newbie to pattern are: 
> Any sport/pattern capable plane they are comfortable flying. 
> Any second hand pattern plane they can afford. 
> A good friend with a spare plane they will loan you 😁 
> 
> Have a safe Happy New Year to everyone and always land wheels down 😉 
> 
> Jason 
> Jas iP 
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John Ford

Cell 1-816-365-0386

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Thanks,
Jon

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