[NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane...

Thu Jan 3 05:24:59 AKST 2019

I found it here:

https://www.modelaircraft.org/sites/default/files/Comp/RCA20-02.pdf

On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 9:22 AM Matthew Finley via NSRCA-discussion <
nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:

> Sounds good, Whats the Proposal ? Or link ? Thank you !
> ------------------------------
> *From:* NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> on
> behalf of Randy Forbus via NSRCA-discussion <
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 3, 2019 9:12 AM
> *To:* 'Jas S'; Dr. Mike Harrison; General pattern discussion
>
> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane...
>
> Whats the proposal
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> on
> behalf of Dr. Mike Harrison via NSRCA-discussion <
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 3, 2019 1:55 PM
> *To:* 'Jas S'; 'General pattern discussion'
> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane...
>
>
> I have read the discussions here with considerable interest.  The decline
> in pattern has been steady and substantial.  There are a number of
> indicators for this.  I have submitted a rule proposal to encourage
> participation in this event.  I would strongly encourage you all to contact
> your contest board member to pass this rule change proposal.  you can type
> AMA rules change proposals and read for yourselves.  I recommend you do
> that and read ALL of it before ripping it up. I have talked to a number of
> newcomers or those that would compete if it weren’t so expensive,etc and
> have based the proposal on that.  everything I have read here supports the
> spirit and intent of the proposal.  It would be a very healthy rules change
> for the event.
>
>
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> *From:* NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]
> *On Behalf Of *Jas S via NSRCA-discussion
> *Sent:* Monday, December 31, 2018 9:12 PM
> *To:* General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane...
>
>
>
> Bill- Have at it. If it helps promote pattern, let’s do it.
>
> Curt- lucky man, even with those tree landings 😉
>
> Hank- my first pattern contest was in 1981, with a Top Flite Headmaster
> with a Fox .40, and I was dead last by a looooong way. None of it to do
> with my plane, just my lack of ability. My following 2 ‘pattern planes’
> were an MK Spinks Acromaster and a Godfrey 1/4 scale Laser 200 (in the red
> Bud Light scheme too). Did I win with those, nope, but again, cause of lack
> of skills, not the plane. It wasn’t until I really started to focus on my
> flying and practice did I see better results. True that this also came
> along the same time I got a pattern plane, but even that design was a ‘73
> design, a year before I was born lol. My brother flew an Ugly Stick in the
> 1988 Nats and always out scored me on take-offs and landings cause he did
> that better than I did.
>
> My first TOC in 1994, I flew what was considered a small plane at 103” and
> a 70cc twin. I ended up 6th without the plane bonus and did the warm-ups in
> the finals. At that point my skill was taking over and I was out flying my
> planes.
>
> I flew with a 5UAP Futaba radio with no expo or mixes for years before
> getting my first computer radio, and funny enough only used 5 channels for
> a few years after getting it too lol. No expo, no mixes... just
> atv/end-points and trims.
>
> Here locally we’ve had many non-pattern planes competing over the years.
> Extra .40, foam Splendor, foam Explorer, Super Cessna, Intruder, small
> Vanquish and Acuity, Era 50, Curare, Kaos, Leader, Stick .40, 50cc Yak.....
> and many more I can’t think of at the moment. A lot of these have won or
> placed in the top 3 in their class and the pilots seemed to have fun when
> it was all said and done. I’m not saying this is always the case, but as we
> know, it’s up to all of us, bottom to top, to keep things fair and fun.
>
>
>
> Two things I had trouble with coming up the ranks was accepting any low
> scores I got in a flight and not being afraid to give scores using the 0-10
> scale. I’ve probably been called names after pilots see the scores from me
> and compare them to another judge. I’m not a perfect judge, but I do think
> I am a fair and consistent judge. I will give Andrew Jesky a 1 if he flies
> what I think is a 1 in front of me (haven’t seen it yet), or a 10 to RVP
> (have done it before and will miss the opportunity to do again). Anyone is
> capable of flying any end of the spectrum during a flight at any time. If a
> pilot is honest with themselves and can see the mistakes (the hardest
> part), then there is no frustration in the scores given, just in the
> mistakes made. That’s where being on your own can hurt. I was on my own in
> practice until I moved to FL and was able to fly with Joe and Ryan during
> practice. As it turns out, it was also a bad thing cause when we judged
> each other, we knew the mistakes that most likely would/could be made.
> Generally we found that we scored each other harder than others just cause
> of that knowledge. I think that also made us better pilots, especially in
> those rounds lol.
>
>
>
> Sorry for the rambling. Happy New Year and now it’s time for me to go glue
> my battery tray together for my Epic. Strapping it to my landing gear
> former for the first 3 flights was ok for testing, but it’s time to
> practice on Thursday with our newest Jr member Kal.
>
>
> Jason
>
> Jas iP
>
>
> On Dec 31, 2018, at 8:52 PM, Henry Pajari via NSRCA-discussion <
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>
> Hi
>
>
>
> Yep, I agree.  Back in the late 70's I flew "A" pattern with an Ugly Stick
> and a steel case Super Tigre 60.  Even took 3rd once, I could take off and
> land really well - the rest, well I brought the airplane home in less than
> 3 pieces.
>
>
>
> I have been lurking on this list and have been a member for several years,
> hoping for the time when I could get into pattern.  Over the years I have
> seen all too many of those I call Elitists belittling others who don't
> have, want, or cannot afford the equipment that the FAI flyers have.
>
>
>
> I thank all of you who took the time to respond.  My comment is really
> that if we are to build pattern as a mainstream interest again we need a
> way to get the average flyer, that has any interest in competition, to
> start.  Once they have participated in a few contests and met the other
> guys I believe it could take off.  In my area there are no pattern flyers
> in my club - Mather Aerospace Modelers.  I believe there are a few in the
> SAM's club and there are none I am aware of in AMOS (I am a member) or El
> Dorado Hills (I am a member).  This covers well over a thousand flyers.
>
>
>
> But thanks again for the good conversation.  A lot more interesting than
> flying down wind😒
>
>
>
> Hank
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> on
> behalf of Phil Spelt via NSRCA-discussion <
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> *Sent:* Monday, December 31, 2018 2:53 PM
> *To:* John Ford; General pattern discussion
> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane...
>
>
>
> Thank you for the really, *REALLY* good comments, John.  The same has
> been my experience over the past 30 years of pattern flying.
>
>
>
> I have seen almost no "elitists" in pattern.  In fact, I can not think of
> even one, right now, thinking back...
>
>
>
> *Phil Spelt, AMA 1294, Scientific Leader Member*
>
> * SPA L-18, Board Member, KCRC Emeritus Oliver Springs, TN (865) 435-1476v
> (865) 604-0541c*
>
> On December 31, 2018 at 5:10 PM John Ford via NSRCA-discussion <
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>
> Hank,
>
> You make some good points, but I have to jump in on this one.
>
> In the past 10 years, I've flown "competitively" at over 40 fields in 12
> states and 4 countries. In the previous 20 years to that, maybe half as
> many venues.
>
> Over that 30-year period, contrary to being laughed off the field, I've
> observed many people show up with everything from a 40-sized sport plane to
> a 3D gasser, and some showing some significant wear and tear, requiring
> some Saturday morning surgery (with donated time and materials) from more
> experienced flyers to allow the new person to put in their rounds. I've
> even seem one senior competitor, unable to fix the newcomer's plane, offer
> one of his spare planes for the newcomer to fly.
>
>
>
> Yes, we have all seen one or two crassly snobby individuals who looked
> down their noses...not only at lesser planes, but at the entire Sportsman
> and Intermediate classes...but I've never personally come across a
> generally-present "Elitist" group that dampens the enjoyment of the sport
> for others, regardless of experience level or plane choice. In fact, the
> folks who tend to be financially-fortunate and who show up with the latest
> and greatest planes tend to be the most generous with their time and help
> for newcomers, or for anyone else. There are always a few exceptions, but
> it not the general rule...that I have personally seen.
>
>
>
> There is always someone on email lists such as this one (and others) that
> will play armchair expert and start describing what plane is required for
> this class and that class. It's not good information, to be polite about it
> It's ALWAYS been about the pilot and how much effort is devoted to
> practice...it's NEVER been about the plane. If you examine the NSRCA
> contest results and look for those same armchair experts, you'll usually
> find that they haven't flown a contest in decades. Again, exceptions exist,
> but anyone can win any class with a battle-worn 10-year old plane
> regardless of glow or electric, or with a smaller plane. I've seen it done
> in front of me several times. So has everyone else who goes to contests.
>
>
>
> As long as your plane can climb to the top of the box, it's good
> enough..just practice! You are in the hunt!
>
>
>
> John
>
> NSRCA 1673
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 31, 2018 at 3:25 PM Henry Pajari via NSRCA-discussion <
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Guys
>
>
>
> Thanks for addressing this issue.  If we are truly down to 400 members,
> and want to stick around, I believe bringing in new blood is pivotal.
>
>
>
> I'm at work so I can't write all I want but I would like to dial
> expectations down a little more.
>
>
>
> I wanted to get started in pattern a few years back.  I bought an ARF
> pattern plane for a 72 4 stroke (about 48 inch WS).  I also bought a
> Swallow? for a 120 to 140.  Life got in the way so I never finished them.
> I gave the smaller one to my son and he did some work then got a job in San
> Diego so the airplane sits in my shop.
>
>
>
> If I am lucky I will convert both to electric and get started.  (I've been
> flying models since 1958 and RC since 1970 but mainly just for sport and
> socializing).
>
>
>
> Today you can get a good electric motor, ESC, and batteries for way cheap
> so getting these air-frames in the air is very feasible for anyone that
> thinks they may be interested in pattern.
>
>
>
> Why can't a flyer get one of these ARF's to get their feet wet and enter a
> couple of contests?  If they like it they will invariably move up to what
> the Elitists call competitive equipment.  My concern is that if someone
> showed up at a contest with one of these airplanes they would be laughed
> off the field.
>
>
>
> When I started playing golf 25 years ago or so I had a used set of clubs.
> I played terribly, like when I learned to fly pre-buddy box.  When I got
> better I built my own clubs via Golfsmith.  Now I have a nice set of
> Pings.  Still play badly but look good getting out of the car 😉
>
>
>
> Do any of you think I am on a useful track?
>
>
>
> Hank
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> on
> behalf of Tjpritchett via NSRCA-discussion <
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> *Sent:* Monday, December 31, 2018 12:04 PM
> *To:* Curt Oberg; General pattern discussion
> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane..
>
>
>
> Good perspective, an even better goal, and an excellent wife!!  You’ve got
> it made Curt!!
> (See you in Andersonville!)
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Dec 31, 2018, at 2:13 PM, Curt Oberg via NSRCA-discussion <
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> >
> > When I started flying pattern back in the mid 70's, starting from
> scratch you could get into pattern flying with a very competitive rig for
> about $750. One hundred for a plane kit, $100 for a piped .61 Rossi, $400
> for a ProLine Competition 6 radio including battery and servos, and about
> $150 for retracts, wheels, fuel tank, retract servos, finishing materials,
> etc.  Of course you then had to build the plane first (which is probably
> becoming a lost art).  Relatively speaking, considering inflation and the
> differential between salaries then and now, the cost of a present day, ARF
> pattern plane, set up ready to fly is probably very close in a percentage
> of your disposable income.  It helps immensely when you have a wife like
> mine who encourages me buy the best equipment out there for my planes.
> Every time I hesitate to spend money on the hobby, she always tells me that
> if I don't spend the money, my son will when I'm gone.  My cost for
> enjoying pattern flying would go down somewhat if I would quit landing in
> the top of the trees.
> >
> > Curt Oberg
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: NSRCA-discussion [ mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>] On Behalf Of Jas S via
> NSRCA-discussion
> > Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2018 7:15 PM
> > To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Price for a pattern plane...
> >
> > There’s always been talk about how expensive pattern is. All disciplines
> and hobbies are expensive, it’s just a choice one makes as to how much they
> want to spend. I’ve not had a ‘top of the line $$$$’ model since I was a
> teen when I wasn’t paying for my planes. Back then I was lucky enough to
> get the best planes on the market. Ten Plus planes back then were as good
> as the Yang/Oxai planes of today, and relative cost was about the same.
> Since being on my own, I’ve had more average planes, price point at least.
> Sponsorship allows me to outfit my planes with what I consider some of the
> best equipment, but even then I don’t bling out my planes at every turn.
> >
> > Example, Acuity set-up from the 2017 Nats in Blytheville, AR:
> > Plane: AJ Acuity $949
> > Motor: AJ 5230-20P $260
> > OS/Futaba ESC: $300 I think
> > Battery: ThunderPower 6000’s $220
> > Servos: Futaba SBUS, 173’s, 171’s & 175 $950 now 🤭
> > Receiver: Futaba 7006 $100 now
> > Falcon Spinner and Prop: $160
> > Total works out to about: $2939
> >
> > Most hardware is stock from the kit. Linkages, tail wheel assembly,
> sticky velcro hook side, axles, wheels. I changed the cowl screws, motor
> mounting screws (shorter) and velcro strap for the battery.
> >
> > I could have used, and not hurt my performance any, this equipment:
> > Futaba 9650’s, 9151’s & 9155 ($430) and saved -$520
> > Futaba 617 receiver ($94) and saved -$6
> > Castle 80a ESC ($145) and saved -$155
> > Gator spinner ($18) and saved -$42
> > APC prop ($44) and saved -$56
> > Power Unlimited 5800’s ($186) and saved $34
> > Shulman Aviation 6v regulator ($20) +$20
> > Total saved: $658
> >
> > So my Acuity set-up could be done for just about $2144. This is assuming
> you have NONE of the stuff to put in a 2m sized plane.
> >
> > Now my Epic set-up from the 2018 Muncie, IN Nats is a different price
> point:
> > CA Model Epic $2780 (Evo price, I think Epic + was less)
> > Brenner Contra: $1000 last year
> > Kontronic Motor: $500
> > Add $100 for a 2nd Falcon prop
> > Subtract $60 for the Falcon spinner
> > Futaba servos/receiver, ThunderPower batteries and OS/Futaba ESC are the
> same prices as Acuity.
> >
> > I usually use 2mm carbon rod for pushrods, Du-Bro/Central Hobbies/F3AU
> links, MPI 2.25 wheels.
> >
> > Total around $6000
> >
> > Again, using equipment that’s not ‘top of the line’, I can save about
> $2400. Most of the difference from the Acuity savings is swapping the
> contra for a Himax set-up.
> >
> > And the Yang/Oxai you can add another $~2500 to the total for a
> top-shelf set-up.
> >
> > All this being said, the BEST deals for a newbie to pattern are:
> > Any sport/pattern capable plane they are comfortable flying.
> > Any second hand pattern plane they can afford.
> > A good friend with a spare plane they will loan you 😁
> >
> > Have a safe Happy New Year to everyone and always land wheels down 😉
> >
> > Jason
> > Jas iP
> > _______________________________________________
> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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>
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>
>
>
> --
>
> John Ford
>
> Cell 1-816-365-0386
>
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-- 

Thanks,
Jon
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