[NSRCA-discussion] P-21.14 Comet question for the experts

Sun Dec 22 08:32:42 AKST 2019

DerekIts Joe Walker not Jason. Its easy to get that confused.MikeSent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
-------- Original message --------From: Derek Koopowitz via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> Date: 12/22/19  11:13 AM  (GMT-06:00) To: Jas S <justanotherflyr at gmail.com>, General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] P-21.14 Comet question for the experts 

Well said Jason!  

Get Outlook for iOS

From: NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> on behalf of Jas S via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 22, 2019 7:13 AM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] P-21.14 Comet question for the experts

Pilots have to be able judge a class up or down or both. Depending on the turnout some even have to judge a couple above or below their class. That is part of pattern. It’s the part that many don’t enjoy, but the pilot enjoys getting an accurate score based
 on their flight. 
It is up to us, the pilots, to understand the patterns enough to be able to judge them fairly. I’ve always said, patterns are just lines and loops with elements included. If you take out the elements (rolls/snaps) in F3A, you have something close to an
 Intermediate pattern. I do this from time to time to focus on geometry and flow, especially with new patterns. Judging does not require a pilot to be capable of flying the maneuvers, just to be able to break down each one into its basics and judge accordingly.
These discussions are good to have. This in particular because here in D3 we have had this same discussion and we came up with the conclusion the lines didn’t have to be the same. I practiced it the same so that’s what I continued to do but others did
 it with different line lengths. The PP didn’t specify either so we left it at that but now we know.
Another example is the Center Humpty in Masters. The aresti, while never drawn accurately since it’s inception, shows corners at the top and a half loop at the bottom. That’s not how it’s supposed to be flown though. Like the PP shows (too many pages to
 have on a call sheet) it’s matching 2- 1/4 loops  on top and a 1/2 loop with the same radiI at the bottom. Unfortunately none did it that way during the contest and lost a handful of points because of it. 
I’m not sure if pilots realize this or not, but understanding how to judge a pattern correlates to being able to improve ones flying of a pattern. Once you start to get picky about your judging, you’ll start to get picky about your flying and everything
 gets better. 

Happy Holidays

Jas iP

On Dec 22, 2019, at 9:28 AM, mups53 via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:

FWIW
 Some may wonder why participation at the Nats is in decline.
 Well this discussion is an example of why. As the complexity of the maneuvers ramps up it also makes judging them harder.
Masters fliers for the most part are the ones who have to judge FAI. For many they don't enjoy it and instead dread having to learn it all so they can feel confident they are competent enough. After all we take on the task with a deep sense
 of responsibility.
 I don't know the answer to this situation.
 I only know it exists.
 Merry Christmas everyone.
Mike Mueller 

Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: GLEN WATSON via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> 
Date: 12/21/19 9:05 PM (GMT-06:00) 
To: AC Glenn <bhzboy07 at gmail.com>, General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>, J <vellum2 at bellsouth.net>

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] P-21.14 Comet question for the experts 

This is the challenge of interpreting and applying consistent judging standards. 

According to 5B.2 and  5B.10: 

In general, turn-around manoeuvres are positioning manoeuvres. Therefore, entry and exit altitude need not be the same if the pilot wishes to make an attitude adjustment. The keywords are  'in general', this implies 5B.2 and 5B.10 would be in effect unless
 otherwise specified in the manoeuvre description. 

P-21.14 description: 
Comet with consecutive two ¼ rolls in opposite directions, ½ roll.  From upright, push through a 1/8 loop into a 45° downline, perform consecutively two ¼ rolls in opposite directions, pull through a ¾ loop into a 45° downline, perform a ½ roll, pull through
 a 1/8 loop, exit upright. 

In the description of  P-21.14 there is no requirement mentioned to line length or how the lines are drawn except they are 45 degrees. Therefore I surmise the standard under 5B.2 and 5B.10 should be applied.

Regards, 

Glen Watson 

On December 21, 2019 at 8:15 PM AC Glenn via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:

Sent from my iPhone 

On Dec 21, 2019, at 7:45 PM, J <vellum2 at bellsouth.net> wrote:

No they don’t. It’s a turn around maneuver that can be used for height adjustment. The power point specifically addresses this question in the downgrades. 

Joe 

On Dec 21, 2019, at 8:29 PM, AC Glenn via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:

Yes they do 

Sent from my iPhone 

On Dec 21, 2019, at 7:14 PM, Don Szczur via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:

This may have been asked already, but do the lines have to be the same length?

Thanks, 
Don 

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