[NSRCA-discussion] Arming Device for electric airplanes

Wed Sep 26 16:32:56 AKDT 2018


> On Sep 26, 2018, at 5:27 PM, Ken Dunlap via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> 
> Your right, but you can't enforce routine. But you can check if the airplane has one at weigh-in and add 1 point to the final maneuver where the caller shows the plug to the judges. I see it as a free point!  😊

I like that

> 
> From: davel322 at comcast.net <mailto:davel322 at comcast.net> <davel322 at comcast.net <mailto:davel322 at comcast.net>>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:20 PM
> To: 'Ken Dunlap'; 'Peter Vogel'; 'Vicente Bortone'; derekemmett at yahoo.com <mailto:derekemmett at yahoo.com>; 'General pattern discussion'
> Subject: RE: [NSRCA-discussion] Arming Device for electric airplanes
>  
> If a pilot forgets to deactivate their plane, why will they remember to disarm?
>  
> I do not dispute that an arming plug can be part of a safe procedure or routine – but – the bigger issue is having a good routine and following it 100%.
>  
> Regards,
> 
> Dave
>  
> From: Ken Dunlap <kdunlap at hotmail.com <mailto:kdunlap at hotmail.com>> 
> Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:15 PM
> To: 'Peter Vogel' <vogel.peter at gmail.com <mailto:vogel.peter at gmail.com>>; 'Vicente Bortone' <vincebrc at gmail.com <mailto:vincebrc at gmail.com>>; derekemmett at yahoo.com <mailto:derekemmett at yahoo.com>; davel322 at comcast.net <mailto:davel322 at comcast.net>; General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Arming Device for electric airplanes
>  
> Well, I am going to chime in with my experience. I use the Arm-safe. I have over 1000+ flights on airplanes with this system and it has been bulletproof. I know there are thoughts about single points of failure etc etc. But here's my experience.. I have never seen an arming system fail, but I have seen countless airplanes go careening off into fences and fields because the pilot forgot to deactivate his/her airplane. I am entirely supportive of an arming rule that requires a hard disconnect of the airplane.
>  
> Cheers,
> Ken
> From: NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>> on behalf of davel322--- via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:00 PM
> To: 'Peter Vogel'; 'General pattern discussion'; 'Vicente Bortone'; derekemmett at yahoo.com <mailto:derekemmett at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Arming Device for electric airplanes
>  
> @ “part of the problem”
> I regularly fly alone.  I am very regimented about assembling and flight prep for every aircraft.  I will often decline help from people I don’t know because I don’t know to what extent they will follow instructions.
>  
> When flyers that have not met me see me setting up, and prepping for flight, post-flight I often hear things like – “I was going to head out, but I saw the way you were setting up and had watch the flying”.  Very specific regimented routines do get noticed, and are a very good starting point.  But, it is only a starting point because the best routines don’t work unless they are followed 100% of the time – and that is where we humans generally fail – we get complacent don’t stick to our routines.  I have seen several close calls and runaways even with arming plugs because someone failed to follow a routine……not the fault of the arming plug and not something the arming plug could prevent.
>  
> @ anti-spark “reducing” points of failure.  Anti-spark circuitry is another component and it can fail.  So the potential failure point of carbon build up is exchanged for the potential failure of the anti-spark circuitry.  Carbon buildup is easy to spot and changing plugs should be part of a routine.  That said, I have multiple ESCs with Ultra Deans with more than 1000 flights (and substantially more power cycles) and I can not see any difference in data logs between new plugs and plugs with a 1000 flights.  Carbon buildup substantial enough to cause a problem in itself, is likely indicative of other problems.
>  
> Regards,
>  
> Dave
>  
> From: NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>> On Behalf Of Peter Vogel via NSRCA-discussion
> Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 3:27 PM
> To: Vicente Bortone <vincebrc at gmail.com <mailto:vincebrc at gmail.com>>; derekemmett at yahoo.com <mailto:derekemmett at yahoo.com>; NSRCA NSRCA <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Arming Device for electric airplanes
>  
> To me the big thing is the *convenience* and *expediency* of disarming via an external plug.  Many canopies can be fussy about how they go on and off and, at a contest where we try to keep things moving quickly, especially when one plane has just landed and another is on approach it’s quick and easy for the caller to disarm the plane and carry it into the pits if there is an external device.  Without that, and in the hurry-up scenarios it is real easy for an armed plane to get carried into the pits.  
>  
> Quite frankly though, it’s not going to happen until the top pilots start setting the example rather than being “part of the problem”.  They AREN’T a problem because they fly so much and have a regular caller who knows the routine and quickly disarms the plane, etc. but they need to set an example for the rest who DON’T have those advantages.  I get the “point of failure” concerns, and agree that things like the deans arming plug approach, etc. can introduce those. But an anti-spark external arming bullet, IMHO *reduces* points of failure by ensuring you get no carbon buildup on any battery/ESC connections.  
>  
> Get Outlook for iOS <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Faka.ms%2Fo0ukef&data=02%7C01%7C%7C77cf4f07c8854ee57e8408d6240f1c03%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636736044637032409&sdata=y9firihMVhVQTz%2FRECje58VucalytF3acPCftjAx5yU%3D&reserved=0>
> From: NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>> on behalf of Vicente Bortone via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 12:12:07 PM
> To: derekemmett at yahoo.com <mailto:derekemmett at yahoo.com>; NSRCA NSRCA
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Arming Device for electric airplanes
>  
> Derek,
>  
> The key is that you saw him doing that.  You could have told him.  If you didn't want to tell him you just could make aware of all around to watch out.   It is basic safety that has been proved in the industry.  Any power electric circuit has to have an external visible disconnect.  It is just the basic "Show me rule"   We just want to make sure that the gun cannot fire.  Of courser there are always exceptions and accidents happen.  However, the external arming switch will reduce the chances of accidents for sure.  
>  
> Vicente "Vince" Bortone
>  
>  
> On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 1:06 PM Derek Emmett via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
> The method of disarming the plane is only as good as the pilot (external or internal).  It is for the pilot to enforce the safety of his plane, otherwise you need a watchdog at every flight line to really see the action take place.  In the later many of us take for granted and expect the pilot to do his job.  Sometimes we observe the disarming and sometimes we don't.  Perhaps this is where the biggest improvement in safety could take place.     
>  
> This last weekend's pattern contest, I noticed a pilot take his plane out of the car, put it all together, then start to put flight pack in, with the arming plug still installed!?  Point is safety errors will happen regardless.  We are the drivers of the planes, thus we need to be the 100% responsible party of course.  I think the biggest improvement we can immediately apply is to individually watch what our buddies are doing, and just be the extra set of eyes and caution.  Lets help each other not make these critical errors.         
>  
> Best
> Derek...
>  
> On Wednesday, September 26, 2018, 8:47:49 AM PDT, Anthony Romano via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote: 
>  
>  
> Both of those incidents were due to pilots not following the statement below. Having an arming plug would not have prevented either incident.
>  
> From: NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>> on behalf of Patternpilot One via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 11:29 AM
> To: Jon Bruml; General pattern discussion
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Arming Device for electric airplanes
>  
> Right from the AMA competition guide.
>  
> At no time will a model be left unrestrained or unattended while running or with the electric motor power circuit(s) physically connected unless the model is on the runway.
> 
> All models that have the capability of Fail Safe in the radio shall have the throttle set to Fail Safe in a way that the motor/engine comes to a complete stop or a minimum idle if it were to lose signal from the transmitter.
> 
>  
> Scott A.
> 
>  
>  
> Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
>  
>  
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Jon Bruml via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
> Date: 9/26/18 11:10 AM (GMT-05:00)
> To: Joe Lachowski <jlachow at hotmail.com <mailto:jlachow at hotmail.com>>, Vicente Bortone <vincebrc at gmail.com <mailto:vincebrc at gmail.com>>, General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Arming Device for electric airplanes
>  
> Okay how about the FAi pilot who accidentally advanced his throttle in the pits at a June contest and destroyed the entire back end of an Oxai ?
> Only by grace was no one injured 
>  
> Jonathan Bruml
> Techstyles
> www.techstyles.com <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.techstyles.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C77cf4f07c8854ee57e8408d6240f1c03%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636736044637032409&sdata=UcWviREUU4Bx5LNfpM5islsGMYhSEtJkB0P68DKMBew%3D&reserved=0>
> From: NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>> on behalf of Joe Lachowski via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:07:08 AM
> To: Vicente Bortone; General pattern discussion
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Arming Device for electric airplanes
>  
> So you want to require an arming device based on a sport flyers stupidity.
>  
> Sent from Mail <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgo.microsoft.com%2Ffwlink%2F%3FLinkId%3D550986&data=02%7C01%7C%7C77cf4f07c8854ee57e8408d6240f1c03%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636736044637032409&sdata=pRcVx8nlk7mHRjyTEGtXUGg3y364toHl9rQ6XYbp4sk%3D&reserved=0> for Windows 10
>  
> From: NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>> on behalf of Vicente Bortone via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 10:38:30 AM
> To: Vogel, Peter; NSRCA NSRCA
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Arming Device for electric airplanes
>  
> This is real experience.  About 3-4 years ago I was getting ready to fly with another friend.  Both of our planes were already in the pits and we just were talking before starting the day.  A pilot came with an electric plane and parked between us.  He left it there and decided that he needs to go and get something.  About a minute later his plane came to live suddenly and took us from the pits.  It starting to do an small loop and was coming directly toward us.  It was so fast that my friend said "take cover". We were lucky that the plane crashed in front of us and there were no more pilots flying or around.  It was so fast that I didn't have time to move an inch and could have hit us easily.  The plane didn't have an arming switch outside so there was no way for us to know if was armed.  The owner came and we never were able to figure out what really happened.  
>  
> I think makes sense to put together a formal request that will require external disconnect outside the electric powered planes.  It is easy to justify since is already a requirement of the National Electrical Code and OSHA.  Anyone out there wants to put together a draft.  I will help to signed since I am a CD.  
>  
> !Gone Flying!  
> 
> Vicente "Vince" Bortone
>  
>  
> On Tue, Sep 25, 2018 at 7:41 PM Vogel, Peter via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
> Rule says you must disarm the plane before bringing into the pits, does not say how.  That can mean take off canopy and unplug.  I’ve moved to using a Jeti anti-spark bullet in-line on the red side of the battery-esc connection with the bullet routed to the outside of the plane.  Quick, simple, foolproof.  Anti-spark prevents carbon buildup on the bullets.
>  
> Get Outlook for iOS <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Faka.ms%2Fo0ukef&data=02%7C01%7C%7C77cf4f07c8854ee57e8408d6240f1c03%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636736044637032409&sdata=y9firihMVhVQTz%2FRECje58VucalytF3acPCftjAx5yU%3D&reserved=0>
> From: NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>> on behalf of Phil Spelt via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2018 5:34:02 PM
> To: General pattern discussion
> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Arming Device for electric airplanes
>  
> Guys, what is the current status of arming devices in NSRCA for you electric airplanes?  Does anyone know what the AMA says about arming devices -- I can't find my way around the new web site yet, and this is the easy way out!  lol
>  
> Thanks,
>  
> Phil Spelt, AMA 1294, Scientific Leader Member
> SPA L-18, Board Member, KCRC Emeritus
> Oliver Springs, TN (865) 435-1476v (865) 604-0541c
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