[NSRCA-discussion] Arming Device for electric airplanes

Wed Sep 26 16:21:05 AKDT 2018

If a pilot forgets to deactivate their plane, why will they remember to
disarm?

I do not dispute that an arming plug can be part of a safe procedure or
routine - but - the bigger issue is having a good routine and following it
100%.

Regards,

Dave

From: Ken Dunlap <kdunlap at hotmail.com> 
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:15 PM
To: 'Peter Vogel' <vogel.peter at gmail.com>; 'Vicente Bortone'
<vincebrc at gmail.com>; derekemmett at yahoo.com; davel322 at comcast.net; General
pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Arming Device for electric airplanes

Well, I am going to chime in with my experience. I use the Arm-safe. I have
over 1000+ flights on airplanes with this system and it has been
bulletproof. I know there are thoughts about single points of failure etc
etc. But here's my experience.. I have never seen an arming system fail, but
I have seen countless airplanes go careening off into fences and fields
because the pilot forgot to deactivate his/her airplane. I am entirely
supportive of an arming rule that requires a hard disconnect of the
airplane.

Cheers,

Ken

  _____  

From: NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> > on behalf of davel322---
via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> >
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:00 PM
To: 'Peter Vogel'; 'General pattern discussion'; 'Vicente Bortone';
derekemmett at yahoo.com <mailto:derekemmett at yahoo.com> 
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Arming Device for electric airplanes 

@ "part of the problem"

I regularly fly alone.  I am very regimented about assembling and flight
prep for every aircraft.  I will often decline help from people I don't know
because I don't know to what extent they will follow instructions.

When flyers that have not met me see me setting up, and prepping for flight,
post-flight I often hear things like - "I was going to head out, but I saw
the way you were setting up and had watch the flying".  Very specific
regimented routines do get noticed, and are a very good starting point.
But, it is only a starting point because the best routines don't work unless
they are followed 100% of the time - and that is where we humans generally
fail - we get complacent don't stick to our routines.  I have seen several
close calls and runaways even with arming plugs because someone failed to
follow a routine..not the fault of the arming plug and not something the
arming plug could prevent.

@ anti-spark "reducing" points of failure.  Anti-spark circuitry is another
component and it can fail.  So the potential failure point of carbon build
up is exchanged for the potential failure of the anti-spark circuitry.
Carbon buildup is easy to spot and changing plugs should be part of a
routine.  That said, I have multiple ESCs with Ultra Deans with more than
1000 flights (and substantially more power cycles) and I can not see any
difference in data logs between new plugs and plugs with a 1000 flights.
Carbon buildup substantial enough to cause a problem in itself, is likely
indicative of other problems.

Regards,

Dave

From: NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> > On Behalf Of Peter Vogel
via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 3:27 PM
To: Vicente Bortone <vincebrc at gmail.com <mailto:vincebrc at gmail.com> >;
derekemmett at yahoo.com <mailto:derekemmett at yahoo.com> ; NSRCA NSRCA
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Arming Device for electric airplanes

To me the big thing is the *convenience* and *expediency* of disarming via
an external plug.  Many canopies can be fussy about how they go on and off
and, at a contest where we try to keep things moving quickly, especially
when one plane has just landed and another is on approach it's quick and
easy for the caller to disarm the plane and carry it into the pits if there
is an external device.  Without that, and in the hurry-up scenarios it is
real easy for an armed plane to get carried into the pits.  

Quite frankly though, it's not going to happen until the top pilots start
setting the example rather than being "part of the problem".  They AREN'T a
problem because they fly so much and have a regular caller who knows the
routine and quickly disarms the plane, etc. but they need to set an example
for the rest who DON'T have those advantages.  I get the "point of failure"
concerns, and agree that things like the deans arming plug approach, etc.
can introduce those. But an anti-spark external arming bullet, IMHO
*reduces* points of failure by ensuring you get no carbon buildup on any
battery/ESC connections.  

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  _____  

From: NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> > on behalf of Vicente
Bortone via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> >
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 12:12:07 PM
To: derekemmett at yahoo.com <mailto:derekemmett at yahoo.com> ; NSRCA NSRCA
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Arming Device for electric airplanes 

Derek,

The key is that you saw him doing that.  You could have told him.  If you
didn't want to tell him you just could make aware of all around to watch
out.   It is basic safety that has been proved in the industry.  Any power
electric circuit has to have an external visible disconnect.  It is just the
basic "Show me rule"   We just want to make sure that the gun cannot fire.
Of courser there are always exceptions and accidents happen.  However, the
external arming switch will reduce the chances of accidents for sure.  

Vicente "Vince" Bortone

On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 1:06 PM Derek Emmett via NSRCA-discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:

The method of disarming the plane is only as good as the pilot (external or
internal).  It is for the pilot to enforce the safety of his plane,
otherwise you need a watchdog at every flight line to really see the action
take place.  In the later many of us take for granted and expect the pilot
to do his job.  Sometimes we observe the disarming and sometimes we don't.
Perhaps this is where the biggest improvement in safety could take place.

This last weekend's pattern contest, I noticed a pilot take his plane out of
the car, put it all together, then start to put flight pack in, with the
arming plug still installed!?  Point is safety errors will happen
regardless.  We are the drivers of the planes, thus we need to be the 100%
responsible party of course.  I think the biggest improvement we can
immediately apply is to individually watch what our buddies are doing, and
just be the extra set of eyes and caution.  Lets help each other not make
these critical errors.          

Best

Derek...

On Wednesday, September 26, 2018, 8:47:49 AM PDT, Anthony Romano via
NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> > wrote: 

Both of those incidents were due to pilots not following the statement
below. Having an arming plug would not have prevented either incident.

  _____  

From: NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> > on behalf of
Patternpilot One via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> >
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 11:29 AM
To: Jon Bruml; General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Arming Device for electric airplanes 

Right from the AMA competition guide.

At no time will a model be left unrestrained or unattended while running or
with the electric motor power circuit(s) physically connected unless the
model is on the runway.

All models that have the capability of Fail Safe in the radio shall have the
throttle set to Fail Safe in a way that the motor/engine comes to a complete
stop or a minimum idle if it were to lose signal from the transmitter.

Scott A.

Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

-------- Original message --------

From: Jon Bruml via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> > 

Date: 9/26/18 11:10 AM (GMT-05:00) 

To: Joe Lachowski <jlachow at hotmail.com <mailto:jlachow at hotmail.com> >,
Vicente Bortone <vincebrc at gmail.com <mailto:vincebrc at gmail.com> >, General
pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> > 

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Arming Device for electric airplanes 

Okay how about the FAi pilot who accidentally advanced his throttle in the
pits at a June contest and destroyed the entire back end of an Oxai ?

Only by grace was no one injured 

Jonathan Bruml

Techstyles

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  _____  

From: NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> > on behalf of Joe
Lachowski via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> >
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 8:07:08 AM
To: Vicente Bortone; General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Arming Device for electric airplanes 

So you want to require an arming device based on a sport flyers stupidity.

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From: NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> > on behalf of Vicente
Bortone via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> >
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 10:38:30 AM
To: Vogel, Peter; NSRCA NSRCA
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Arming Device for electric airplanes 

This is real experience.  About 3-4 years ago I was getting ready to fly
with another friend.  Both of our planes were already in the pits and we
just were talking before starting the day.  A pilot came with an electric
plane and parked between us.  He left it there and decided that he needs to
go and get something.  About a minute later his plane came to live suddenly
and took us from the pits.  It starting to do an small loop and was coming
directly toward us.  It was so fast that my friend said "take cover". We
were lucky that the plane crashed in front of us and there were no more
pilots flying or around.  It was so fast that I didn't have time to move an
inch and could have hit us easily.  The plane didn't have an arming switch
outside so there was no way for us to know if was armed.  The owner came and
we never were able to figure out what really happened.   

I think makes sense to put together a formal request that will require
external disconnect outside the electric powered planes.  It is easy to
justify since is already a requirement of the National Electrical Code and
OSHA.  Anyone out there wants to put together a draft.  I will help to
signed since I am a CD.  

!Gone Flying!  

Vicente "Vince" Bortone

On Tue, Sep 25, 2018 at 7:41 PM Vogel, Peter via NSRCA-discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> wrote:

Rule says you must disarm the plane before bringing into the pits, does not
say how.  That can mean take off canopy and unplug.  I've moved to using a
Jeti anti-spark bullet in-line on the red side of the battery-esc connection
with the bullet routed to the outside of the plane.  Quick, simple,
foolproof.  Anti-spark prevents carbon buildup on the bullets. 

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  _____  

From: NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> > on behalf of Phil Spelt
via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> >
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2018 5:34:02 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Arming Device for electric airplanes 

Guys, what is the current status of arming devices in NSRCA for you electric
airplanes?  Does anyone know what the AMA says about arming devices -- I
can't find my way around the new web site yet, and this is the easy way out!
lol

Thanks,

Phil Spelt, AMA 1294, Scientific Leader Member
SPA L-18, Board Member, KCRC Emeritus
Oliver Springs, TN (865) 435-1476v (865) 604-0541c

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