[NSRCA-discussion] NSRCA Leadership / Masters different sequence
John Gayer
jgghome at comcast.net
Mon Jul 10 08:37:04 AKDT 2017
Stuart seems to have incorporated a lot of your suggestions.
On 7/10/2017 10:24 AM, Frackowiak Tony wrote:
> That's what I did with my proposed sequence. You asked me why I didn't
> do one, so I did one.
>
> Tony Frackowiak
>
> On Jul 10, 2017, at 9:20 AM, John Gayer wrote:
>
>> Tony,
>>
>> I don't see that simply adding some complexity to a maneuver
>> /automatically/ bumps the Kfactor. The current Masters sequence has a
>> 2of8, reversed full roll, 2of8 reversed starting from inverted and it
>> is a K5. To me, the 4of8 reversed from inverted is a much easier
>> maneuver as the single transition is upright rather than two
>> reversals at knifeedge and the Kfactor should reflect that.
>>
>> i wouldn't have a problem with reducing the complexity of these
>> disputed maneuvers so we can agree that they are K4s but it's not my
>> sequence. I didn't change any Ks except to make corrections
>> according to the guide.
>>
>> John
>>
>> On 7/10/2017 9:42 AM, Frackowiak Tony wrote:
>>> You are still trying to sneak in too many K5's by calling them K4's.
>>> The Reversing 4 of 8's should stay a K5. Yes, the inverted 8 point
>>> is a K4, but you are reversing! Can't you get that now makes it a 5!
>>>
>>> The Pyramid Loop as Described is definitely a K5. The Guide's
>>> Pyramid loop with just 1/2 rolls on each leg and without the 135
>>> down at the start is a K4. So this is a K5.
>>>
>>> The Six Sided Loop on corner with all of the 1/2 rolls should be a
>>> K5. In the Guide a standard Six Sided Loop with just a 2 of 4 on the
>>> top leg is a K4. How does this stay a K4?
>>>
>>> And as I have said, the KE with 1 1/4 rolls should be a K5. The
>>> Guides simple KE flight with just 1/4 rolls is a K4.
>>>
>>> You should quit trying to sneak in difficulty by using too low of
>>> K-Factors. It is possible to create an interesting pattern without
>>> the difficulty creep of fake K-Factors.
>>>
>>> Tony Frackowiak
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jul 10, 2017, at 7:04 AM, John Gayer via NSRCA-discussion wrote:
>>>
>>>> Stuart,
>>>>
>>>> I took the liberty of putting your sequence in a new spreadsheet.
>>>> Some of the exit attitudes didn't work as described like maneuver
>>>> 11 needs to be a full roll to exit inverted and it is a K2
>>>> according to the guide. Also the spin is a K3 according to the guide.
>>>>
>>>> I have some other ideas but I thought starting with a clean layout
>>>> might be a good idea. I support what you are trying to do here.
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> DESCRIPTION K Exit Notes
>>>> 1 1
>>>> 2 U Double Immelman with knife edge flight 5 upright inside
>>>> 1/2 loop then outside 1/2 loop
>>>> 3 TA 1/2 Square loop on corner with 2of4 roll 2 upright
>>>> 4 D Pyramid Loop with 2of4, full roll, 2of4 5 upright Push to
>>>> 135 down……
>>>> 5 TA 1/2 Square loop with Snap 3 inverted
>>>> 6 U Six-sided Loop on corner, 1/2 Rolls in leg 1,3 and 4,6 5
>>>> inverted
>>>> 7 TA Humpty with options: Push, push, push, 1/2 roll up and a
>>>> full roll on the downline. Option 1/4 roll up 3/4 roll down 3
>>>> inverted
>>>> 8 D 4of8-pt roll, 4of8 opposite 5 inverted I would consider
>>>> this a K4, inverted 8-pt is K4
>>>> 9 TA Stall turn with 1/2 rolls reversed goingup and 1/2 roll down
>>>> 3 upright
>>>> 10 U Outside Avalanche with 1/2 rolls 4 upright
>>>> 11 TA Half reverse Cuban Eight with a full roll on the 45 2
>>>> inverted Not inverted here and its not a 3, added 1/2 roll
>>>> 12 D Knife edge flight with 1 1/4 rolls in and out 4 upright
>>>> rolls same direction
>>>> 13 TA Top Hat, 3/4 roll up and down 2 upright
>>>> 14 U Figure Z with two rolls on 45 4 upright
>>>> 15 TA 2turnspin 3 inverted two turn spin is still a K3, not 2
>>>> 16 D Reverse cuban eight with full rolls 4 inverted
>>>> 17 TA Stall turn with 1/2 roll down 2 upright
>>>> 18 U Loop with roll over top 180 5 upright
>>>> 19 U Landing 1 upright
>>>>
>>>> 61
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 7/9/2017 7:02 PM, Stuart Chale via NSRCA-discussion wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Pyramid (triangle from the top base at the bottom) From the top
>>>>> of the box as you approach center push 3/8 loop to an inverted 45
>>>>> degree down line 2/4 on this leg to upright. Push 3/8 to inverted
>>>>> horizontal flight, full roll on this line from inverted push back
>>>>> 3/8 loop back towards top center. 2/4 on this line to inverted
>>>>> again, push 3/8 loop back to upright flight
>>>>>
>>>>> You are not going to like my answer but as far as the K factor it
>>>>> is similar to the current P-17 triangle which has a 4 pt roll on
>>>>> the top leg and still just a K4
>>>>>
>>>>> Since you are going to want to make the pyramid large so the 1/2
>>>>> square down can be big enough not to fear the snap the maneuver
>>>>> preceding the pyramid the half square on corner needs to be large
>>>>> so the asymmetrical roll (one leg only) should be fairly easy to
>>>>> do. Also going up hill so you have more time for the 2/4.
>>>>>
>>>>> 6 sided loop K factor being a 5. Can't disagree with you but I
>>>>> can also make the case for a K4. There are no K5 six sided loops
>>>>> in the current guidelines. Nothing to compare to say it is as
>>>>> hard or easier. I think that since it just has 1/2 rolls in it is
>>>>> easier than the P-17 six sided FAI is flying now. Theirs is a K4.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think I agree with what someone said about K factors needing an
>>>>> overhaul. 'Perhaps going to an IMAC type system to assign K
>>>>> factors is the right direction to go. This will take a bit of
>>>>> work and can't happen before these sequences need to be done:)
>>>>> But it is something to think about for the future.
>>>>>
>>>>> As far as the number of spins I am good with 2 or 3 or 1.5 or 2.5
>>>>> with an added 1/2 roll. You are happy at 3 Jon recommends 2 which
>>>>> just confirms that not everyone will be happy with the path we chose.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think right now there are 3 clear K5 maneuvers. Is the pyramid,
>>>>> six sided and or 1 1/4 roll to knife edge a K5 maneuver. You can
>>>>> make a case with support to go either way.
>>>>>
>>>>> Let me try to get this to format better. If anyone else has
>>>>> comments on this version or if you support the original Masters
>>>>> proposal from the NSRCA website please let us know.
>>>>>
>>>>> Masters proposal
>>>>> Maneuver KF Notes:
>>>>> 1 Takeoff (U) 1
>>>>> 2 Double Immelman with knife edge flight (U) 5 Pull to 1/2
>>>>> loop, immediate 1/4 roll, knife edge flight, 1/4 roll same
>>>>> direction, immediate push to 1/2 outside loop, immediate 1/4 roll,
>>>>> knife edge flight, 1/4 roll same direction to level upright exit
>>>>> <cjialcnhkpanepbl.png>
>>>>> 3
>>>>>
>>>>> 1/2 square loop on corner with 2/4 pt rolls in 2nd leg (TA) 2
>>>>> 4 Pyramid loop, 2/4, Full roll, 2/4 (D) 4 Push back to 45 deg
>>>>> down line, 2/4 pt roll, push to level flight, Full rollfrom
>>>>> inverted, push back to to 45 up line, 2/4 pt roll, push to level
>>>>> upright exit
>>>>> 5 1/2 square outside loop, full snap (+ or -) in vert down line,
>>>>> exit inverted (TA) 3 (inverted exit)
>>>>> 6 Six sided loop on corner with 1/2 rolls in legs 1, 3, 4, 6,
>>>>> exit inverted (U) 4 Push at center no rolls on vertical
>>>>> legs.(inverted exit)
>>>>> 7 Humpty with options: Push, push, push, 1/2 roll up and a full
>>>>> roll on the downline, exit inverted.Option 1/4 roll up 3/4 roll
>>>>> down, exit inverted (TA) 3 (inverted exit)
>>>>> 8 4/8 opposite from inverted, exit inverted (D) 5 (inverted exit)
>>>>> 9 Stall turn with 1/2 rolls reversed goingup and 1/2 roll down,
>>>>> exit upright (TA) 3
>>>>> 10 Avalanche with 1/2 roll going in and out 4 1/2 roll to
>>>>> inverted, perform an outside loop with a snap at the top, complete
>>>>> the loop and perform a 1/2 roll to exit upright.
>>>>> 11 Half reverse Cuban Eight with a1/2 roll roll on the 45 (TA) 3
>>>>> exit inverted
>>>>> 12 Knife edge flight with 1 1/4 rolls in and out. (D) 4
>>>>> 13 Top Hat, 3/4 roll up and down exit upright (TA) 2
>>>>> 14 Figure Z with 2 consecutive rolls(U) 4
>>>>> 15 2 turn spin exit inverted (TA) 2
>>>>> 16 Reverse cuban eight with full rolls from inverted(D) 4
>>>>> 17 Stall turn with half rolldown (TA) 2
>>>>> 18 Loop with integrated roll in top 180 (U)* 5
>>>>> 19 Landing (U) 1
>>>>> Total K-factor 61 Goal is 60 to 63
>>>>> Minimum of 2, max of 3 cross box maneuvers
>>>>>
>>>>> Minimum of 2, max of 3 downwind rolling
>>>>> maneuvers
>>>>>
>>>>> Minimum of 2, max of 4 K5 maneuvers
>>>>>
>>>>> Minimum of 2, max of 3 Snap Rolls
>>>>>
>>>>> Minimum of 1, max of 2 Spins
>>>>>
>>>>> Minimum 2 stall turns, 4 max
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 7/9/2017 5:30 PM, Frackowiak Tony wrote:
>>>>>> Stuart,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your description of the Pyramid loop still doesn't seem to make
>>>>>> sense to me. Am I wrong?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I like the Avalanche.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think you've incorporated some of the other changes and
>>>>>> as such you still have too many, in my opinion, K5 maneuvers. The
>>>>>> Six Sided loop as proposed should be a K5. I feel the 1 1/4 roll
>>>>>> KE is a K5. As I mentioned earlier, you could change the Pyramid
>>>>>> loop to all 1/2 rolls and make it a K4, it's in the Guide that way.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My suggestion, #3 should be a 1/2 Square Loop w/1/2rolls both
>>>>>> legs. #4 should be Pyramid Loop starting from inverted, 1/2 rolls
>>>>>> each leg, exit upright.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would personally keep the 3 turn spin. I wouldn't go less then
>>>>>> 2 with the spin. But you might consider making the Reverse Cuban
>>>>>> 8 a regular Cuban 8 just to give more distance between the spin
>>>>>> and the 8. That won't affect the entry in to the Stall Turn.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My suggested sequence. Maneuvers in Red are straight out of the
>>>>>> Guide. I've given what I can find in the Guide as the closest
>>>>>> example of a proposed new maneuver.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> #1. Take-off (K1)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> #2. Double Immelmann with half roll first, full roll second,
>>>>>> inverted entry, exit upright (K4)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> #3. Half square loop on corner with 1/2 rolls, exit inverted (K2)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> #4. Pyramid Loop, inverted entry, 1/2 rolls each leg, exit
>>>>>> upright. (K4)
>>>>>> Guide example - Triangular loop (base at bottom) with half rolls
>>>>>> in all legs, exit inverted (K4)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> #5. 1/2 Square Outside, 1 Snap down, exit inverted (K3)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> #6. Six Sided Loop on Corner, 1/2 rolls legs 1, 3, 4, 6, exit
>>>>>> inverted (K5)
>>>>>> Guide example - Six sided loop with 2/4 pt roll on top, inverted
>>>>>> entry (K4)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> #7. Humpty w/Options, exit inverted (K3)
>>>>>> Guide example - Humpty bump (push, push, push) half roll up,
>>>>>> 2/2pt roll down, inverted entry (K3)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> #8. two 4 of 8 rolls reversed, exit inverted (K5)
>>>>>> Guide example - 4/8 pt. roll, inverted entry (K4)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> #9. Stall Turn, 2 1/2 rolls reversed up, 1/2 roll down, exit
>>>>>> upright (K3)
>>>>>> Guide example - Stall Turn, 2/4pt roll up, half roll down,
>>>>>> inverted entry (K2)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> #10. Inverted Avalanche w/1/2 Roll in and out, exit upright (K4)
>>>>>> Guide example - Avalanche with 1-1/2 snap, inverted entry (from
>>>>>> bottom) (K4)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> #11. Same as proposed, exit upright (K3)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> #12. Same as proposed, exit upright (K5)
>>>>>> Guide example - Knife edge flight (K4)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> #13. Same as proposed, exit upright (K2) Might create an option
>>>>>> that doesn't change position. Suggest 1 roll up, 1/2 roll down.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> #14. Figure Z w/2 rolls on 45, exit upright (K4)
>>>>>> Guide example - Figure Z with 2/2pt roll up (K4)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> #15. Three Turn Spin, exit inverted (K2)
>>>>>> Guide example - Two turn spin (K2)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> #16. Cuban 8 w/full rolls, inverted entry and exit (K4)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> #17. Stall Turn w/1/2 roll down, exit upright ( K2)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> #18. Loop w/Integrated 1 Roll on Top 180, exit upright (K5)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> #19. Landing (K1)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Total K - 62
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This meets the Guide with a max of 4 K5 maneuvers and is within
>>>>>> the K limit of 60 to 63. It does have only 9 of the 19 maneuvers
>>>>>> currently in the Guide. Really 7 of 17 if you don't use the
>>>>>> Take-off and Landing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tony Frackowiak
>>>>>> On Jul 9, 2017, at 8:09 AM, Stuart Chale via NSRCA-discussion wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Can certainly change it to 2 spins without changing anything
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Jul 9, 2017, at 10:30 AM, John Fuqua via NSRCA-discussion
>>>>>>> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Totally agree with Jon’s thoughts on spins.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *From:*NSRCA-discussion
>>>>>>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] *On Behalf Of
>>>>>>>> *Jon Lowe via NSRCA-discussion
>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Sunday, July 9, 2017 9:13 AM
>>>>>>>> *To:* nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>;
>>>>>>>> frackowiak at sbcglobal.net <mailto:frackowiak at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NSRCA Leadership / Masters
>>>>>>>> different sequence
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Much better sequence overall. I believe it is more in line with
>>>>>>>> the intent of the sequence guide. It certainly makes the
>>>>>>>> transition from advanced more doable. It also appears to be
>>>>>>>> less power hungry.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> One comment. I, and several others, are not fans of end box
>>>>>>>> spins. In heavy crosswinds, like the last NATS, the plane
>>>>>>>> drifts as allowed without penalty FOR THAT MANEUVER, even if it
>>>>>>>> goes out of box. However, unless the proposal to correct this
>>>>>>>> passes the contest board, the following maneuver gets penalized
>>>>>>>> for cross box or out of box before the maneuver actually
>>>>>>>> starts. So the pilot gets a penalty in one maneuver for
>>>>>>>> allowable drift in another. There is no guarantee the proposal
>>>>>>>> will pass. In this sequence, a three turn spin allows even
>>>>>>>> more drift than we have with 2.5 in the current sequence.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I would argue that the entry and exit of a spin are what really
>>>>>>>> count in judging. Therefore, if end box spins are kept,
>>>>>>>> reducing it to one turn or 1.5 with a 1/2 roll out reduces the
>>>>>>>> drift component considerably. 3 turns is just too many for end box.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'd also suggest that the top hat have a straight ahead option
>>>>>>>> if the pilot does not need to correct in and out. I often wish
>>>>>>>> the current sequence had the option.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Good effort!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jon
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sunday, July 9, 2017 Stuart Chale via NSRCA-discussion
>>>>>>>> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lets look at this, we can replace the Double key (K 5) with an
>>>>>>>> avalanche K3 to get the snap in a center maneuver or lets put
>>>>>>>> the maneuver we originally had in advanced, and avalanche with
>>>>>>>> ½ roll in and out (K4), and remove the snap from the next
>>>>>>>> maneuver reverse cuban turnaround. Also changed a stall turn
>>>>>>>> to ½ rolls reversed going up.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sorry formatting problems showing up again.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> */Masters proposal/*
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> */Maneuver/*
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> KF
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Notes:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Takeoff (U)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Double Immelman with knife edge flight (U)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 5
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Pull to 1/2 loop, immediate 1/4 roll, knife edge flight, 1/4
>>>>>>>> roll same direction, immediate push to 1/2 outside loop,
>>>>>>>> immediate 1/4 roll, knife edge flight, 1/4 roll same direction
>>>>>>>> to level upright exit
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <CCDCC1C3B1DB44578155E81A66BA48EE.png>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 3
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1/2 square loop on corner with 2/4 pt rolls in 2nd leg (TA)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 4
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Pyramid loop, 2/4, Full roll, 2/4 (D)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 5
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Push back to 45 deg down line, 2/4 pt roll, push to level
>>>>>>>> flight, Full roll from inverted, push back to to 45 up line,
>>>>>>>> 2/4 pt roll, push to level upright exit
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 5
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1/2 square outside loop, full snap (+ or -) in vert down line,
>>>>>>>> exit inverted (TA)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 3
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> (inverted exit)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 6
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Six sided loop on corner with 1/2 rolls in legs 1, 3, 4, 6,
>>>>>>>> exit inverted (U)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 4
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Push at center no rolls on vertical legs. (inverted exit)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 7
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Humpty with options: Push, push, push, 1/2 roll up and a full
>>>>>>>> roll on the downline, exit inverted. Option 1/4 roll up 3/4
>>>>>>>> roll down, exit inverted (TA)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 3
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> (inverted exit)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 8
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 4/8 opposite from inverted, exit inverted (D)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 5
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> (inverted exit)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 9
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Stall turn with 1/2 rolls reversed going up and 1/2 roll down,
>>>>>>>> exit upright (TA)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 3
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 10
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> avalanche with 1/2 roll in and out (U)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 4
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1/2 roll to inverted, perform an outside loop with a snap at
>>>>>>>> the top, complete the loop and perform a 1/2 roll to exit upright.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 11
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Half reverse Cuban Eight with a 1/2 roll on the 45 (TA)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 3
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 12
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Knife edge flight with 1 1/4 rolls in and out. (D)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 4
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> exit upright
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 13
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Top Hat, 3/4 roll up and down exit upright (TA)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 14
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Figure Z with 2 consecutive rolls (U)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 4
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 15
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 3 turn spin exit inverted (TA)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 16
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Reverse cuban eight with full rolls from inverted(D)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 4
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 17
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Stall turn with half roll down (TA)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 18
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Loop with integrated roll in top 180 (U)*
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 5
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 19
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Landing (U)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Total K-factor
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 62
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Goal is 60 to 63
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Minimum of 2, max of 3 cross box maneuvers
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Minimum of 2, max of 3 downwind rolling
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> maneuvers
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Minimum of 2, max of 4 K5 maneuvers
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Minimum of 2, max of 3 Snap Rolls
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Minimum of 1, max of 2 Spins
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Minimum 2 stall turns, 4 max
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>
>>>>>>>> for Windows 10
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *From: *Stuart Chale via NSRCA-discussion
>>>>>>>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>>>>> *Sent: *Sunday, July 9, 2017 3:24 AM
>>>>>>>> *To: *Frackowiak Tony <mailto:frackowiak at sbcglobal.net>;
>>>>>>>> General pattern discussion
>>>>>>>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NSRCA Leadership / Masters
>>>>>>>> different sequence
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tony thanks for looking at this with an open mind and critical
>>>>>>>> eye. To be honest I wasn’t going to initially post this but
>>>>>>>> was convinced to by a group of D 1 flyers at the contest
>>>>>>>> yesterday. If for no other reason than to show that the
>>>>>>>> committee did consider a more “conventional” sequence in
>>>>>>>> addition to the one that was sent out.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And I did change a few things last night after spending the
>>>>>>>> full day in the sun and I promise only 1 beer at dinner so I
>>>>>>>> may have messed up a thing or 2.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Can this be the basis of the recommended sequence? As I
>>>>>>>> understand the process the committee sends the proposals to the
>>>>>>>> BOD. They review and in this case have asked for membership
>>>>>>>> feedback and then make their recommendations to the committee.
>>>>>>>> If the BOD decides that sequence 1 is too difficult and this
>>>>>>>> one meets the goals of the NSRCA better then they can ask us to
>>>>>>>> tweak this one instead. Did I send this out at the request of
>>>>>>>> the entire sequence committee? No I did not.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> #4 From top of the box push 3/8 loop to a 45 2 of 4 push back
>>>>>>>> to level inverted flight full roll across the bottom push back
>>>>>>>> 3/8 loop to a 45 degree up line towards top center of the box 2
>>>>>>>> of 4 and push 3/8 loop back to horizontal (upright)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Can easily make a case to be a K5 😊
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> #6 correct ½ rolls only I will have to review current maneuvers
>>>>>>>> for the K factor. Pretty late right now but I wanted to provide
>>>>>>>> a response as best I could.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> #12 comes from P19 and that is the k factor they gave it so
>>>>>>>> that is what we were using right or wrong we have to start
>>>>>>>> somewhere.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Double key only reason it is in here is it is in P19 and as I
>>>>>>>> stated I sort of like having a few of the same maneuvers as FAI
>>>>>>>> (not the clown dance) I need to try to fly it to see if it
>>>>>>>> really a good maneuver or not but it is certainly an easy place
>>>>>>>> to swap to a K4.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Roll reversal: The knife edge flight you have to roll the
>>>>>>>> other way after knife edge to come out upright. But one can be
>>>>>>>> put in the stall turns as well or somewhere else if we think
>>>>>>>> another one needs to be included.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Snaps. You are correct I misplaced one trying to simplify the
>>>>>>>> pattern a little. Maybe after the 1 1/4 roll in the middle of
>>>>>>>> the knife edge flight 😊
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I will look at the sequence and get one back in there.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Stuart
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>
>>>>>>>> for Windows 10
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *From: *Frackowiak Tony <mailto:frackowiak at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>>>>> *Sent: *Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:48 AM
>>>>>>>> *To: *Stuart Chale <mailto:schale1 at outlook.com>; General
>>>>>>>> pattern discussion <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NSRCA Leadership / Masters
>>>>>>>> different sequence
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Stuart,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> #4. The description doesn't seem to make sense. Isn't it an
>>>>>>>> upright entry, PUSH to 45, 2 of 4 roll, PULL to level flight,
>>>>>>>> Full roll from upright to upright, PULL to 45, 2 of 4 roll,
>>>>>>>> push to exit upright? Or am I missing something? Also, it seems
>>>>>>>> to be pushing being a K4. Here are the two closest examples in
>>>>>>>> the Guide.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Triangular loop (base at bottom) with half rolls in all legs,
>>>>>>>> exit inverted (K4)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Triangular loop from top (base at bottom) w/ half rolls on 45
>>>>>>>> degree legs, 2/4-pt roll on
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> base leg (K5)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It would seem that the maneuver proposed should be a K5. You
>>>>>>>> might want to go with 1/2 rolls on all legs and redo a few
>>>>>>>> things to get the upright/inverted thing going again.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> #6. I had to actually draw this one out to visualize it. Just
>>>>>>>> so I'm sure, you enter inverted and at center push to a 30
>>>>>>>> degree angle? I like the maneuver but I think it's really a K5
>>>>>>>> not a 4. The Guide has no 6-sided loop on corner, but a
>>>>>>>> standard 6-sided with just a 2 of 4 on top is a K4.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> #12. I still feel that a very good case can be made that this
>>>>>>>> maneuver is a K5, not a K4.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Both snaps are in turnaround maneuvers. You need a center snap.
>>>>>>>> Guide says: Minimum of two Snap Rolls but no more than three
>>>>>>>> (one may be a turnaround maneuver).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The only roll reversal is in the 4/8 opposite. You might want
>>>>>>>> to incorporate another in one of the looping maneuvers. Maybe
>>>>>>>> in the Figure Z. Maybe a 3 of 4 with a reverse 3 of 4. Or
>>>>>>>> something less. Maybe just reverse the 2 rolls. But that might
>>>>>>>> bump it to a K5 also.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You have to address the snap issue and in my opinion you have
>>>>>>>> too many K5 maneuvers. Maximum according to the Guide is 4. I
>>>>>>>> think this has to be addressed. I would dump the Double Key and
>>>>>>>> use a K4 from the Guide in it's place as a start.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Otherwise to me it looks like a better pattern to work with
>>>>>>>> then the current proposal.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is there any chance that what is worked out here might actually
>>>>>>>> make it in as an official proposal?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tony Frackowiak
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Jul 8, 2017, at 9:26 PM, Stuart Chale via NSRCA-discussion
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thank you, you are correct I swapped the Cuban with a roll
>>>>>>>> to allow better entry to the knife edge roll
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To keep the Cuban an inverted entry and exit we can change
>>>>>>>> the spin to 3 turn spin with an inverted exit (may bump the k?)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And change the stall turn to 1/2 roll down only.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> */Masters proposal/*
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> */Maneuver/*
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> KF
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Notes:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Takeoff (U)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Double Immelman with knife edge flight (U)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 5
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Pull to 1/2 loop, immediate 1/4 roll, knife edge flight,
>>>>>>>> 1/4 roll same direction, immediate push to 1/2 outside
>>>>>>>> loop, immediate 1/4 roll, knife edge flight, 1/4 roll same
>>>>>>>> direction to level upright exit
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <olpknaibinkfmdnp.png>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 3
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1/2 square loop on corner with 2/4 pt rolls in 2nd leg (TA)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 4
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Pyramid loop, 2/4, Full roll, 2/4 (D)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 4
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Push back to 45 deg down line, 2/4 pt roll, push to level
>>>>>>>> flight, Full roll from inverted, push back to to 45 up
>>>>>>>> line, 2/4 pt roll, push to level upright exit
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 5
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1/2 square outside loop, full snap (+ or -) in vert down
>>>>>>>> line, exit inverted (TA)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 3
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> (inverted exit)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 6
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Six sided loop on corner with 1/2 rolls in legs 1, 3, 4, 6,
>>>>>>>> exit inverted (U)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 4
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Push at center no rolls on vertical legs. (inverted exit)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 7
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Humpty with options: Push, push, push, 1/2 roll up and a
>>>>>>>> full roll on the downline, exit inverted. Option 1/4 roll
>>>>>>>> up 3/4 roll down, exit inverted (TA)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 3
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> (inverted exit)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 8
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 4/8 opposite from inverted, exit inverted (D)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 5
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> (inverted exit)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 9
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Stall turn with 2/2 rolls up and 1/2 roll down, exit
>>>>>>>> upright (TA)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 3
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 10
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Double Key with full roll, 1/2 roll, 1/2 roll, full roll (U)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 5
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Pull to a vert up line, full roll, pull back to a 45 deg
>>>>>>>> down line, 1/2 roll, push to a 45 deg up line, 1/2 roll,
>>>>>>>> pull to a vertical downline, full roll, pull to level
>>>>>>>> upright exit
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 11
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Half reverse Cuban Eight with a positive snap roll roll on
>>>>>>>> the 45 (TA)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 3
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> exit inverted
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 12
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Knife edge flight with 1 1/4 rolls in and out. (D)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 4
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 13
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Top Hat, 3/4 roll up and down exit upright (TA)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 14
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Figure Z with 2 consecutive rolls (U)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 4
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 15
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 3 turn spin exit inverted (TA)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 16
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Reverse cuban eight with full rolls from inverted(D)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 4
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 17
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Stall turn with half roll down (TA)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 18
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Loop with integrated roll in top 180 (U)*
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 5
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 19
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Landing (U)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Total K-factor
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 62
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Goal is 60 to 63
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 7/9/2017 12:12 AM, John Gayer via NSRCA-discussion wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Stuart,
>>>>>>>> I believe the reverse cuban with full rolls should be
>>>>>>>> from upright.
>>>>>>>> Good luck with this.
>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>>> <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>>> <mailto:discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>>> <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>> <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>
>>>> <Stuart Masters Sequence for
>>>> 2018-19-1.xls>_______________________________________________
>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>> <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>
>>
>
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