[NSRCA-discussion] NSRCA Leadership / Masters different sequence
John Gayer
jgghome at comcast.net
Sun Jul 9 21:29:07 AKDT 2017
Tony,
He is pushing 135 degrees(3/8 loop) to 45 down before center so there is
no crossover at the top as the exit is also a 135 degree push. Then the
pushes will make sense.
John
On 7/9/2017 9:26 PM, Frackowiak Tony via NSRCA-discussion wrote:
> Stuart,
>
> OK, Your DI exits upright. Your 1/2 Sq Loop w/2 of 4 on 2nd leg exits
> upright. In an upright entry Pyramid loop where you push to the 45 you
> are upright before the roll. The 2 of 4 roll now puts you inverted on
> the 45. How can you PUSH to inverted horizontal flight and be flying a
> Pyramid loop? What am I not seeing?? Even if I start the Pyramid
> inverted your description doesn't work. From an upright entry just
> pushing to 45 does not make you inverted!
>
> I don't care how many spins. I just think when you do less then 2 it
> is hard to do a good entry and exit that looks clean. But John and Jon
> have good points.
>
> My comparison of K-Factors used the K's in the Guide, not the F3A
> catalog. You keep quoting F3A K's. Masters sequences are supposed to
> be using the Guide. You can discuss K's until your blue in the face
> and maybe they do need a review. And as you said, we don't have the
> time to review all of the K's in the Guide. But I would think that if
> you add elements to something already a K4 that should be a good
> reason to make it a K5. The Guide was designed with the K's assigned
> as they are to try to make a structured approach from Sportsman to
> Masters. FAI F3A doesn't care about any of that. And they shouldn't.
> But we need to.
>
> I saw Verne's post about how upset he was about the Figure M w/ 1/4
> rolls being made a K4 for Advanced. I was involved in designing that
> sequence. I believe you can make a real case that a Double Stall Turn
> with a 3/4 roll up and a 1/4 roll down is tougher to fly then a Fig M
> w/1/4 rolls. I see very few Double Stall Turns of any kind flown
> correctly, staying on center with equal radius. But it got assigned a
> K4 and according to Verne we were complete idiots making the M in
> Advanced a K4. But I do see his point.
>
> If you keep using the F3A catalog for the K's you are going to create
> difficulty creep. Thank you Verne for your comment.
>
> I tried to assist by designing a sequence using yours as a basis that
> conforms to what is in the Guide.
>
> Tony Frackowiak
>
>
> On Jul 9, 2017, at 6:02 PM, Stuart Chale wrote:
>
>> Pyramid (triangle from the top base at the bottom) From the top of
>> the box as you approach center push 3/8 loop to an inverted 45 degree
>> down line 2/4 on this leg to upright. Push 3/8 to inverted
>> horizontal flight, full roll on this line from inverted push back 3/8
>> loop back towards top center. 2/4 on this line to inverted again,
>> push 3/8 loop back to upright flight
>>
>> You are not going to like my answer but as far as the K factor it is
>> similar to the current P-17 triangle which has a 4 pt roll on the top
>> leg and still just a K4
>>
>> Since you are going to want to make the pyramid large so the 1/2
>> square down can be big enough not to fear the snap the maneuver
>> preceding the pyramid the half square on corner needs to be large so
>> the asymmetrical roll (one leg only) should be fairly easy to do.
>> Also going up hill so you have more time for the 2/4.
>>
>> 6 sided loop K factor being a 5. Can't disagree with you but I can
>> also make the case for a K4. There are no K5 six sided loops in the
>> current guidelines. Nothing to compare to say it is as hard or
>> easier. I think that since it just has 1/2 rolls in it is easier
>> than the P-17 six sided FAI is flying now. Theirs is a K4.
>>
>> I think I agree with what someone said about K factors needing an
>> overhaul. 'Perhaps going to an IMAC type system to assign K factors
>> is the right direction to go. This will take a bit of work and
>> can't happen before these sequences need to be done:) But it is
>> something to think about for the future.
>>
>> As far as the number of spins I am good with 2 or 3 or 1.5 or 2.5
>> with an added 1/2 roll. You are happy at 3 Jon recommends 2 which
>> just confirms that not everyone will be happy with the path we chose.
>>
>> I think right now there are 3 clear K5 maneuvers. Is the pyramid,
>> six sided and or 1 1/4 roll to knife edge a K5 maneuver. You can
>> make a case with support to go either way.
>>
>> Let me try to get this to format better. If anyone else has comments
>> on this version or if you support the original Masters proposal from
>> the NSRCA website please let us know.
>>
>> Masters proposal
>> Maneuver KF Notes:
>> 1 Takeoff (U) 1
>> 2 Double Immelman with knife edge flight (U) 5 Pull to 1/2 loop,
>> immediate 1/4 roll, knife edge flight, 1/4 roll same direction,
>> immediate push to 1/2 outside loop, immediate 1/4 roll, knife edge
>> flight, 1/4 roll same direction to level upright exit
>> <cjialcnhkpanepbl.png>
>> 3
>>
>> 1/2 square loop on corner with 2/4 pt rolls in 2nd leg (TA) 2
>> 4 Pyramid loop, 2/4, Full roll, 2/4 (D) 4 Push back to 45 deg down
>> line, 2/4 pt roll, push to level flight, Full rollfrom inverted, push
>> back to to 45 up line, 2/4 pt roll, push to level upright exit
>> 5 1/2 square outside loop, full snap (+ or -) in vert down line,
>> exit inverted (TA) 3 (inverted exit)
>> 6 Six sided loop on corner with 1/2 rolls in legs 1, 3, 4, 6, exit
>> inverted (U) 4 Push at center no rolls on vertical legs.(inverted
>> exit)
>> 7 Humpty with options: Push, push, push, 1/2 roll up and a full roll
>> on the downline, exit inverted.Option 1/4 roll up 3/4 roll down, exit
>> inverted (TA) 3 (inverted exit)
>> 8 4/8 opposite from inverted, exit inverted (D) 5 (inverted exit)
>> 9 Stall turn with 1/2 rolls reversed goingup and 1/2 roll down, exit
>> upright (TA) 3
>> 10 Avalanche with 1/2 roll going in and out 4 1/2 roll to
>> inverted, perform an outside loop with a snap at the top, complete
>> the loop and perform a 1/2 roll to exit upright.
>> 11 Half reverse Cuban Eight with a1/2 roll roll on the 45 (TA) 3
>> exit inverted
>> 12 Knife edge flight with 1 1/4 rolls in and out. (D) 4
>> 13 Top Hat, 3/4 roll up and down exit upright (TA) 2
>> 14 Figure Z with 2 consecutive rolls(U) 4
>> 15 2 turn spin exit inverted (TA) 2
>> 16 Reverse cuban eight with full rolls from inverted(D) 4
>> 17 Stall turn with half rolldown (TA) 2
>> 18 Loop with integrated roll in top 180 (U)* 5
>> 19 Landing (U) 1
>> Total K-factor 61 Goal is 60 to 63
>> Minimum of 2, max of 3 cross box maneuvers
>>
>> Minimum of 2, max of 3 downwind rolling
>> maneuvers
>>
>> Minimum of 2, max of 4 K5 maneuvers
>>
>> Minimum of 2, max of 3 Snap Rolls
>>
>> Minimum of 1, max of 2 Spins
>>
>> Minimum 2 stall turns, 4 max
>>
>>
>> On 7/9/2017 5:30 PM, Frackowiak Tony wrote:
>>> Stuart,
>>>
>>> Your description of the Pyramid loop still doesn't seem to make
>>> sense to me. Am I wrong?
>>>
>>> I like the Avalanche.
>>>
>>> I don't think you've incorporated some of the other changes and as
>>> such you still have too many, in my opinion, K5 maneuvers. The Six
>>> Sided loop as proposed should be a K5. I feel the 1 1/4 roll KE is a
>>> K5. As I mentioned earlier, you could change the Pyramid loop to all
>>> 1/2 rolls and make it a K4, it's in the Guide that way.
>>>
>>> My suggestion, #3 should be a 1/2 Square Loop w/1/2rolls both legs.
>>> #4 should be Pyramid Loop starting from inverted, 1/2 rolls each
>>> leg, exit upright.
>>>
>>> I would personally keep the 3 turn spin. I wouldn't go less then 2
>>> with the spin. But you might consider making the Reverse Cuban 8 a
>>> regular Cuban 8 just to give more distance between the spin and the
>>> 8. That won't affect the entry in to the Stall Turn.
>>>
>>>
>>> My suggested sequence. Maneuvers in Red are straight out of the
>>> Guide. I've given what I can find in the Guide as the closest
>>> example of a proposed new maneuver.
>>>
>>>
>>> #1. Take-off (K1)
>>>
>>> #2. Double Immelmann with half roll first, full roll second,
>>> inverted entry, exit upright (K4)
>>>
>>> #3. Half square loop on corner with 1/2 rolls, exit inverted (K2)
>>>
>>> #4. Pyramid Loop, inverted entry, 1/2 rolls each leg, exit upright. (K4)
>>> Guide example - Triangular loop (base at bottom) with half rolls in
>>> all legs, exit inverted (K4)
>>>
>>> #5. 1/2 Square Outside, 1 Snap down, exit inverted (K3)
>>>
>>> #6. Six Sided Loop on Corner, 1/2 rolls legs 1, 3, 4, 6, exit
>>> inverted (K5)
>>> Guide example - Six sided loop with 2/4 pt roll on top, inverted
>>> entry (K4)
>>>
>>> #7. Humpty w/Options, exit inverted (K3)
>>> Guide example - Humpty bump (push, push, push) half roll up, 2/2pt
>>> roll down, inverted entry (K3)
>>>
>>> #8. two 4 of 8 rolls reversed, exit inverted (K5)
>>> Guide example - 4/8 pt. roll, inverted entry (K4)
>>>
>>> #9. Stall Turn, 2 1/2 rolls reversed up, 1/2 roll down, exit upright
>>> (K3)
>>> Guide example - Stall Turn, 2/4pt roll up, half roll down, inverted
>>> entry (K2)
>>>
>>> #10. Inverted Avalanche w/1/2 Roll in and out, exit upright (K4)
>>> Guide example - Avalanche with 1-1/2 snap, inverted entry (from
>>> bottom) (K4)
>>>
>>> #11. Same as proposed, exit upright (K3)
>>>
>>> #12. Same as proposed, exit upright (K5)
>>> Guide example - Knife edge flight (K4)
>>>
>>> #13. Same as proposed, exit upright (K2) Might create an option that
>>> doesn't change position. Suggest 1 roll up, 1/2 roll down.
>>>
>>> #14. Figure Z w/2 rolls on 45, exit upright (K4)
>>> Guide example - Figure Z with 2/2pt roll up (K4)
>>>
>>> #15. Three Turn Spin, exit inverted (K2)
>>> Guide example - Two turn spin (K2)
>>>
>>> #16. Cuban 8 w/full rolls, inverted entry and exit (K4)
>>>
>>> #17. Stall Turn w/1/2 roll down, exit upright ( K2)
>>>
>>> #18. Loop w/Integrated 1 Roll on Top 180, exit upright (K5)
>>>
>>> #19. Landing (K1)
>>>
>>> Total K - 62
>>>
>>> This meets the Guide with a max of 4 K5 maneuvers and is within the
>>> K limit of 60 to 63. It does have only 9 of the 19 maneuvers
>>> currently in the Guide. Really 7 of 17 if you don't use the Take-off
>>> and Landing.
>>>
>>> Tony Frackowiak
>>> On Jul 9, 2017, at 8:09 AM, Stuart Chale via NSRCA-discussion wrote:
>>>
>>>> Can certainly change it to 2 spins without changing anything
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>> On Jul 9, 2017, at 10:30 AM, John Fuqua via NSRCA-discussion
>>>> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Totally agree with Jon’s thoughts on spins.
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:*NSRCA-discussion
>>>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] *On Behalf Of
>>>>> *Jon Lowe via NSRCA-discussion
>>>>> *Sent:* Sunday, July 9, 2017 9:13 AM
>>>>> *To:* nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>;
>>>>> frackowiak at sbcglobal.net <mailto:frackowiak at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NSRCA Leadership / Masters
>>>>> different sequence
>>>>>
>>>>> Much better sequence overall. I believe it is more in line with
>>>>> the intent of the sequence guide. It certainly makes the
>>>>> transition from advanced more doable. It also appears to be less
>>>>> power hungry.
>>>>>
>>>>> One comment. I, and several others, are not fans of end box spins.
>>>>> In heavy crosswinds, like the last NATS, the plane drifts as
>>>>> allowed without penalty FOR THAT MANEUVER, even if it goes out of
>>>>> box. However, unless the proposal to correct this passes the
>>>>> contest board, the following maneuver gets penalized for cross box
>>>>> or out of box before the maneuver actually starts. So the pilot
>>>>> gets a penalty in one maneuver for allowable drift in another.
>>>>> There is no guarantee the proposal will pass. In this sequence, a
>>>>> three turn spin allows even more drift than we have with 2.5 in
>>>>> the current sequence.
>>>>>
>>>>> I would argue that the entry and exit of a spin are what really
>>>>> count in judging. Therefore, if end box spins are kept, reducing
>>>>> it to one turn or 1.5 with a 1/2 roll out reduces the drift
>>>>> component considerably. 3 turns is just too many for end box.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd also suggest that the top hat have a straight ahead option if
>>>>> the pilot does not need to correct in and out. I often wish the
>>>>> current sequence had the option.
>>>>>
>>>>> Good effort!
>>>>>
>>>>> Jon
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sunday, July 9, 2017 Stuart Chale via NSRCA-discussion
>>>>> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Lets look at this, we can replace the Double key (K 5) with an
>>>>> avalanche K3 to get the snap in a center maneuver or lets put the
>>>>> maneuver we originally had in advanced, and avalanche with ½ roll
>>>>> in and out (K4), and remove the snap from the next maneuver
>>>>> reverse cuban turnaround. Also changed a stall turn to ½ rolls
>>>>> reversed going up.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry formatting problems showing up again.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> */Masters proposal/*
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> */Maneuver/*
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> KF
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Notes:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Takeoff (U)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 1
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Double Immelman with knife edge flight (U)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 5
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Pull to 1/2 loop, immediate 1/4 roll, knife edge flight, 1/4 roll
>>>>> same direction, immediate push to 1/2 outside loop, immediate 1/4
>>>>> roll, knife edge flight, 1/4 roll same direction to level upright
>>>>> exit
>>>>>
>>>>> <CCDCC1C3B1DB44578155E81A66BA48EE.png>
>>>>>
>>>>> 3
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 1/2 square loop on corner with 2/4 pt rolls in 2nd leg (TA)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 4
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Pyramid loop, 2/4, Full roll, 2/4 (D)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 5
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Push back to 45 deg down line, 2/4 pt roll, push to level flight,
>>>>> Full roll from inverted, push back to to 45 up line, 2/4 pt roll,
>>>>> push to level upright exit
>>>>>
>>>>> 5
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 1/2 square outside loop, full snap (+ or -) in vert down line,
>>>>> exit inverted (TA)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 3
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> (inverted exit)
>>>>>
>>>>> 6
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Six sided loop on corner with 1/2 rolls in legs 1, 3, 4, 6, exit
>>>>> inverted (U)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 4
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Push at center no rolls on vertical legs. (inverted exit)
>>>>>
>>>>> 7
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Humpty with options: Push, push, push, 1/2 roll up and a full roll
>>>>> on the downline, exit inverted. Option 1/4 roll up 3/4 roll down,
>>>>> exit inverted (TA)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 3
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> (inverted exit)
>>>>>
>>>>> 8
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 4/8 opposite from inverted, exit inverted (D)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 5
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> (inverted exit)
>>>>>
>>>>> 9
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Stall turn with 1/2 rolls reversed going up and 1/2 roll down,
>>>>> exit upright (TA)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 3
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 10
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> avalanche with 1/2 roll in and out (U)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 4
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 1/2 roll to inverted, perform an outside loop with a snap at the
>>>>> top, complete the loop and perform a 1/2 roll to exit upright.
>>>>>
>>>>> 11
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Half reverse Cuban Eight with a 1/2 roll on the 45 (TA)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 3
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 12
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Knife edge flight with 1 1/4 rolls in and out. (D)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 4
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> exit upright
>>>>>
>>>>> 13
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Top Hat, 3/4 roll up and down exit upright (TA)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 14
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Figure Z with 2 consecutive rolls (U)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 4
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 15
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 3 turn spin exit inverted (TA)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 16
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Reverse cuban eight with full rolls from inverted(D)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 4
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 17
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Stall turn with half roll down (TA)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 18
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Loop with integrated roll in top 180 (U)*
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 5
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 19
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Landing (U)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 1
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Total K-factor
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 62
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Goal is 60 to 63
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Minimum of 2, max of 3 cross box maneuvers
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Minimum of 2, max of 3 downwind rolling
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> maneuvers
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Minimum of 2, max of 4 K5 maneuvers
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Minimum of 2, max of 3 Snap Rolls
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Minimum of 1, max of 2 Spins
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Minimum 2 stall turns, 4 max
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>
>>>>> for Windows 10
>>>>>
>>>>> *From: *Stuart Chale via NSRCA-discussion
>>>>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>> *Sent: *Sunday, July 9, 2017 3:24 AM
>>>>> *To: *Frackowiak Tony <mailto:frackowiak at sbcglobal.net>; General
>>>>> pattern discussion <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NSRCA Leadership / Masters
>>>>> different sequence
>>>>>
>>>>> Tony thanks for looking at this with an open mind and critical
>>>>> eye. To be honest I wasn’t going to initially post this but was
>>>>> convinced to by a group of D 1 flyers at the contest yesterday.
>>>>> If for no other reason than to show that the committee did
>>>>> consider a more “conventional” sequence in addition to the one
>>>>> that was sent out.
>>>>>
>>>>> And I did change a few things last night after spending the full
>>>>> day in the sun and I promise only 1 beer at dinner so I may have
>>>>> messed up a thing or 2.
>>>>>
>>>>> Can this be the basis of the recommended sequence? As I
>>>>> understand the process the committee sends the proposals to the
>>>>> BOD. They review and in this case have asked for membership
>>>>> feedback and then make their recommendations to the committee. If
>>>>> the BOD decides that sequence 1 is too difficult and this one
>>>>> meets the goals of the NSRCA better then they can ask us to tweak
>>>>> this one instead. Did I send this out at the request of the
>>>>> entire sequence committee? No I did not.
>>>>>
>>>>> #4 From top of the box push 3/8 loop to a 45 2 of 4 push back to
>>>>> level inverted flight full roll across the bottom push back 3/8
>>>>> loop to a 45 degree up line towards top center of the box 2 of 4
>>>>> and push 3/8 loop back to horizontal (upright)
>>>>>
>>>>> Can easily make a case to be a K5 😊
>>>>>
>>>>> #6 correct ½ rolls only I will have to review current maneuvers
>>>>> for the K factor. Pretty late right now but I wanted to provide a
>>>>> response as best I could.
>>>>>
>>>>> #12 comes from P19 and that is the k factor they gave it so that
>>>>> is what we were using right or wrong we have to start somewhere.
>>>>>
>>>>> Double key only reason it is in here is it is in P19 and as I
>>>>> stated I sort of like having a few of the same maneuvers as FAI
>>>>> (not the clown dance) I need to try to fly it to see if it really
>>>>> a good maneuver or not but it is certainly an easy place to swap
>>>>> to a K4.
>>>>>
>>>>> Roll reversal: The knife edge flight you have to roll the other
>>>>> way after knife edge to come out upright. But one can be put in
>>>>> the stall turns as well or somewhere else if we think another one
>>>>> needs to be included.
>>>>>
>>>>> Snaps. You are correct I misplaced one trying to simplify the
>>>>> pattern a little. Maybe after the 1 1/4 roll in the middle of the
>>>>> knife edge flight 😊
>>>>>
>>>>> I will look at the sequence and get one back in there.
>>>>>
>>>>> Stuart
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986>
>>>>> for Windows 10
>>>>>
>>>>> *From: *Frackowiak Tony <mailto:frackowiak at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>> *Sent: *Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:48 AM
>>>>> *To: *Stuart Chale <mailto:schale1 at outlook.com>; General pattern
>>>>> discussion <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>> *Subject: *Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NSRCA Leadership / Masters
>>>>> different sequence
>>>>>
>>>>> Stuart,
>>>>>
>>>>> #4. The description doesn't seem to make sense. Isn't it an
>>>>> upright entry, PUSH to 45, 2 of 4 roll, PULL to level flight, Full
>>>>> roll from upright to upright, PULL to 45, 2 of 4 roll, push to
>>>>> exit upright? Or am I missing something? Also, it seems to be
>>>>> pushing being a K4. Here are the two closest examples in the Guide.
>>>>>
>>>>> Triangular loop (base at bottom) with half rolls in all legs,
>>>>> exit inverted (K4)
>>>>>
>>>>> Triangular loop from top (base at bottom) w/ half rolls on 45
>>>>> degree legs, 2/4-pt roll on
>>>>>
>>>>> base leg (K5)
>>>>>
>>>>> It would seem that the maneuver proposed should be a K5. You might
>>>>> want to go with 1/2 rolls on all legs and redo a few things to get
>>>>> the upright/inverted thing going again.
>>>>>
>>>>> #6. I had to actually draw this one out to visualize it. Just so
>>>>> I'm sure, you enter inverted and at center push to a 30 degree
>>>>> angle? I like the maneuver but I think it's really a K5 not a 4.
>>>>> The Guide has no 6-sided loop on corner, but a standard 6-sided
>>>>> with just a 2 of 4 on top is a K4.
>>>>>
>>>>> #12. I still feel that a very good case can be made that this
>>>>> maneuver is a K5, not a K4.
>>>>>
>>>>> Both snaps are in turnaround maneuvers. You need a center snap.
>>>>> Guide says: Minimum of two Snap Rolls but no more than three (one
>>>>> may be a turnaround maneuver).
>>>>>
>>>>> The only roll reversal is in the 4/8 opposite. You might want to
>>>>> incorporate another in one of the looping maneuvers. Maybe in the
>>>>> Figure Z. Maybe a 3 of 4 with a reverse 3 of 4. Or something less.
>>>>> Maybe just reverse the 2 rolls. But that might bump it to a K5 also.
>>>>>
>>>>> You have to address the snap issue and in my opinion you have too
>>>>> many K5 maneuvers. Maximum according to the Guide is 4. I think
>>>>> this has to be addressed. I would dump the Double Key and use a K4
>>>>> from the Guide in it's place as a start.
>>>>>
>>>>> Otherwise to me it looks like a better pattern to work with then
>>>>> the current proposal.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is there any chance that what is worked out here might actually
>>>>> make it in as an official proposal?
>>>>>
>>>>> Tony Frackowiak
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jul 8, 2017, at 9:26 PM, Stuart Chale via NSRCA-discussion wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you, you are correct I swapped the Cuban with a roll to
>>>>> allow better entry to the knife edge roll
>>>>>
>>>>> To keep the Cuban an inverted entry and exit we can change the
>>>>> spin to 3 turn spin with an inverted exit (may bump the k?)
>>>>>
>>>>> And change the stall turn to 1/2 roll down only.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> */Masters proposal/*
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> */Maneuver/*
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> KF
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Notes:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Takeoff (U)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 1
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Double Immelman with knife edge flight (U)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 5
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Pull to 1/2 loop, immediate 1/4 roll, knife edge flight, 1/4
>>>>> roll same direction, immediate push to 1/2 outside loop,
>>>>> immediate 1/4 roll, knife edge flight, 1/4 roll same direction
>>>>> to level upright exit
>>>>>
>>>>> <olpknaibinkfmdnp.png>
>>>>>
>>>>> 3
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 1/2 square loop on corner with 2/4 pt rolls in 2nd leg (TA)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 4
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Pyramid loop, 2/4, Full roll, 2/4 (D)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 4
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Push back to 45 deg down line, 2/4 pt roll, push to level
>>>>> flight, Full roll from inverted, push back to to 45 up line,
>>>>> 2/4 pt roll, push to level upright exit
>>>>>
>>>>> 5
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 1/2 square outside loop, full snap (+ or -) in vert down line,
>>>>> exit inverted (TA)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 3
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> (inverted exit)
>>>>>
>>>>> 6
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Six sided loop on corner with 1/2 rolls in legs 1, 3, 4, 6,
>>>>> exit inverted (U)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 4
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Push at center no rolls on vertical legs. (inverted exit)
>>>>>
>>>>> 7
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Humpty with options: Push, push, push, 1/2 roll up and a full
>>>>> roll on the downline, exit inverted. Option 1/4 roll up 3/4
>>>>> roll down, exit inverted (TA)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 3
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> (inverted exit)
>>>>>
>>>>> 8
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 4/8 opposite from inverted, exit inverted (D)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 5
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> (inverted exit)
>>>>>
>>>>> 9
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Stall turn with 2/2 rolls up and 1/2 roll down, exit upright (TA)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 3
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 10
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Double Key with full roll, 1/2 roll, 1/2 roll, full roll (U)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 5
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Pull to a vert up line, full roll, pull back to a 45 deg down
>>>>> line, 1/2 roll, push to a 45 deg up line, 1/2 roll, pull to a
>>>>> vertical downline, full roll, pull to level upright exit
>>>>>
>>>>> 11
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Half reverse Cuban Eight with a positive snap roll roll on the
>>>>> 45 (TA)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 3
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> exit inverted
>>>>>
>>>>> 12
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Knife edge flight with 1 1/4 rolls in and out. (D)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 4
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 13
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Top Hat, 3/4 roll up and down exit upright (TA)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 14
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Figure Z with 2 consecutive rolls (U)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 4
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 15
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 3 turn spin exit inverted (TA)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 16
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Reverse cuban eight with full rolls from inverted(D)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 4
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 17
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Stall turn with half roll down (TA)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 18
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Loop with integrated roll in top 180 (U)*
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 5
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 19
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Landing (U)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 1
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Total K-factor
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 62
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Goal is 60 to 63
>>>>>
>>>>> On 7/9/2017 12:12 AM, John Gayer via NSRCA-discussion wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Stuart,
>>>>> I believe the reverse cuban with full rolls should be from
>>>>> upright.
>>>>> Good luck with this.
>>>>> John
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>> <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>> <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>> <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>
>>
>
>
>
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> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
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