[NSRCA-discussion] NSRCA Leadership / Masters different sequence
Stuart Chale
schale1 at outlook.com
Sun Jul 9 17:02:36 AKDT 2017
Pyramid (triangle from the top base at the bottom) From the top of the box as you approach center push 3/8 loop to an inverted 45 degree down line 2/4 on this leg to upright. Push 3/8 to inverted horizontal flight, full roll on this line from inverted push back 3/8 loop back towards top center. 2/4 on this line to inverted again, push 3/8 loop back to upright flight
You are not going to like my answer but as far as the K factor it is similar to the current P-17 triangle which has a 4 pt roll on the top leg and still just a K4
Since you are going to want to make the pyramid large so the 1/2 square down can be big enough not to fear the snap the maneuver preceding the pyramid the half square on corner needs to be large so the asymmetrical roll (one leg only) should be fairly easy to do. Also going up hill so you have more time for the 2/4.
6 sided loop K factor being a 5. Can't disagree with you but I can also make the case for a K4. There are no K5 six sided loops in the current guidelines. Nothing to compare to say it is as hard or easier. I think that since it just has 1/2 rolls in it is easier than the P-17 six sided FAI is flying now. Theirs is a K4.
I think I agree with what someone said about K factors needing an overhaul. 'Perhaps going to an IMAC type system to assign K factors is the right direction to go. This will take a bit of work and can't happen before these sequences need to be done:) But it is something to think about for the future.
As far as the number of spins I am good with 2 or 3 or 1.5 or 2.5 with an added 1/2 roll. You are happy at 3 Jon recommends 2 which just confirms that not everyone will be happy with the path we chose.
I think right now there are 3 clear K5 maneuvers. Is the pyramid, six sided and or 1 1/4 roll to knife edge a K5 maneuver. You can make a case with support to go either way.
Let me try to get this to format better. If anyone else has comments on this version or if you support the original Masters proposal from the NSRCA website please let us know.
Masters proposal
Maneuver KF Notes:
1 Takeoff (U) 1
2 Double Immelman with knife edge flight (U) 5 Pull to 1/2 loop, immediate 1/4 roll, knife edge flight, 1/4 roll same direction, immediate push to 1/2 outside loop, immediate 1/4 roll, knife edge flight, 1/4 roll same direction to level upright exit
[cid:part1.EBD5BC10.3A3DC32B at outlook.com]
3
1/2 square loop on corner with 2/4 pt rolls in 2nd leg (TA) 2
4 Pyramid loop, 2/4, Full roll, 2/4 (D) 4 Push back to 45 deg down line, 2/4 pt roll, push to level flight, Full roll from inverted, push back to to 45 up line, 2/4 pt roll, push to level upright exit
5 1/2 square outside loop, full snap (+ or -) in vert down line, exit inverted (TA) 3 (inverted exit)
6 Six sided loop on corner with 1/2 rolls in legs 1, 3, 4, 6, exit inverted (U) 4 Push at center no rolls on vertical legs. (inverted exit)
7 Humpty with options: Push, push, push, 1/2 roll up and a full roll on the downline, exit inverted. Option 1/4 roll up 3/4 roll down, exit inverted (TA) 3 (inverted exit)
8 4/8 opposite from inverted, exit inverted (D) 5 (inverted exit)
9 Stall turn with 1/2 rolls reversed going up and 1/2 roll down, exit upright (TA) 3
10 Avalanche with 1/2 roll going in and out 4 1/2 roll to inverted, perform an outside loop with a snap at the top, complete the loop and perform a 1/2 roll to exit upright.
11 Half reverse Cuban Eight with a1/2 roll roll on the 45 (TA) 3 exit inverted
12 Knife edge flight with 1 1/4 rolls in and out. (D) 4
13 Top Hat, 3/4 roll up and down exit upright (TA) 2
14 Figure Z with 2 consecutive rolls (U) 4
15 2 turn spin exit inverted (TA) 2
16 Reverse cuban eight with full rolls from inverted(D) 4
17 Stall turn with half roll down (TA) 2
18 Loop with integrated roll in top 180 (U)* 5
19 Landing (U) 1
Total K-factor 61 Goal is 60 to 63
Minimum of 2, max of 3 cross box maneuvers
Minimum of 2, max of 3 downwind rolling
maneuvers
Minimum of 2, max of 4 K5 maneuvers
Minimum of 2, max of 3 Snap Rolls
Minimum of 1, max of 2 Spins
Minimum 2 stall turns, 4 max
On 7/9/2017 5:30 PM, Frackowiak Tony wrote:
Stuart,
Your description of the Pyramid loop still doesn't seem to make sense to me. Am I wrong?
I like the Avalanche.
I don't think you've incorporated some of the other changes and as such you still have too many, in my opinion, K5 maneuvers. The Six Sided loop as proposed should be a K5. I feel the 1 1/4 roll KE is a K5. As I mentioned earlier, you could change the Pyramid loop to all 1/2 rolls and make it a K4, it's in the Guide that way.
My suggestion, #3 should be a 1/2 Square Loop w/1/2rolls both legs. #4 should be Pyramid Loop starting from inverted, 1/2 rolls each leg, exit upright.
I would personally keep the 3 turn spin. I wouldn't go less then 2 with the spin. But you might consider making the Reverse Cuban 8 a regular Cuban 8 just to give more distance between the spin and the 8. That won't affect the entry in to the Stall Turn.
My suggested sequence. Maneuvers in Red are straight out of the Guide. I've given what I can find in the Guide as the closest example of a proposed new maneuver.
#1. Take-off (K1)
#2. Double Immelmann with half roll first, full roll second, inverted entry, exit upright (K4)
#3. Half square loop on corner with 1/2 rolls, exit inverted (K2)
#4. Pyramid Loop, inverted entry, 1/2 rolls each leg, exit upright. (K4)
Guide example - Triangular loop (base at bottom) with half rolls in all legs, exit inverted (K4)
#5. 1/2 Square Outside, 1 Snap down, exit inverted (K3)
#6. Six Sided Loop on Corner, 1/2 rolls legs 1, 3, 4, 6, exit inverted (K5)
Guide example - Six sided loop with 2/4 pt roll on top, inverted entry (K4)
#7. Humpty w/Options, exit inverted (K3)
Guide example - Humpty bump (push, push, push) half roll up, 2/2pt roll down, inverted entry (K3)
#8. two 4 of 8 rolls reversed, exit inverted (K5)
Guide example - 4/8 pt. roll, inverted entry (K4)
#9. Stall Turn, 2 1/2 rolls reversed up, 1/2 roll down, exit upright (K3)
Guide example - Stall Turn, 2/4pt roll up, half roll down, inverted entry (K2)
#10. Inverted Avalanche w/1/2 Roll in and out, exit upright (K4)
Guide example - Avalanche with 1-1/2 snap, inverted entry (from bottom) (K4)
#11. Same as proposed, exit upright (K3)
#12. Same as proposed, exit upright (K5)
Guide example - Knife edge flight (K4)
#13. Same as proposed, exit upright (K2) Might create an option that doesn't change position. Suggest 1 roll up, 1/2 roll down.
#14. Figure Z w/2 rolls on 45, exit upright (K4)
Guide example - Figure Z with 2/2pt roll up (K4)
#15. Three Turn Spin, exit inverted (K2)
Guide example - Two turn spin (K2)
#16. Cuban 8 w/full rolls, inverted entry and exit (K4)
#17. Stall Turn w/1/2 roll down, exit upright ( K2)
#18. Loop w/Integrated 1 Roll on Top 180, exit upright (K5)
#19. Landing (K1)
Total K - 62
This meets the Guide with a max of 4 K5 maneuvers and is within the K limit of 60 to 63. It does have only 9 of the 19 maneuvers currently in the Guide. Really 7 of 17 if you don't use the Take-off and Landing.
Tony Frackowiak
On Jul 9, 2017, at 8:09 AM, Stuart Chale via NSRCA-discussion wrote:
Can certainly change it to 2 spins without changing anything
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 9, 2017, at 10:30 AM, John Fuqua via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
Totally agree with Jon’s thoughts on spins.
From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Jon Lowe via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 9:13 AM
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>; frackowiak at sbcglobal.net<mailto:frackowiak at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NSRCA Leadership / Masters different sequence
Much better sequence overall. I believe it is more in line with the intent of the sequence guide. It certainly makes the transition from advanced more doable. It also appears to be less power hungry.
One comment. I, and several others, are not fans of end box spins. In heavy crosswinds, like the last NATS, the plane drifts as allowed without penalty FOR THAT MANEUVER, even if it goes out of box. However, unless the proposal to correct this passes the contest board, the following maneuver gets penalized for cross box or out of box before the maneuver actually starts. So the pilot gets a penalty in one maneuver for allowable drift in another. There is no guarantee the proposal will pass. In this sequence, a three turn spin allows even more drift than we have with 2.5 in the current sequence.
I would argue that the entry and exit of a spin are what really count in judging. Therefore, if end box spins are kept, reducing it to one turn or 1.5 with a 1/2 roll out reduces the drift component considerably. 3 turns is just too many for end box.
I'd also suggest that the top hat have a straight ahead option if the pilot does not need to correct in and out. I often wish the current sequence had the option.
Good effort!
Jon
________________________________
On Sunday, July 9, 2017 Stuart Chale via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
Lets look at this, we can replace the Double key (K 5) with an avalanche K3 to get the snap in a center maneuver or lets put the maneuver we originally had in advanced, and avalanche with ½ roll in and out (K4), and remove the snap from the next maneuver reverse cuban turnaround. Also changed a stall turn to ½ rolls reversed going up.
Sorry formatting problems showing up again.
Masters proposal
Maneuver
KF
Notes:
1
Takeoff (U)
1
2
Double Immelman with knife edge flight (U)
5
Pull to 1/2 loop, immediate 1/4 roll, knife edge flight, 1/4 roll same direction, immediate push to 1/2 outside loop, immediate 1/4 roll, knife edge flight, 1/4 roll same direction to level upright exit
<CCDCC1C3B1DB44578155E81A66BA48EE.png>
3
1/2 square loop on corner with 2/4 pt rolls in 2nd leg (TA)
2
4
Pyramid loop, 2/4, Full roll, 2/4 (D)
5
Push back to 45 deg down line, 2/4 pt roll, push to level flight, Full roll from inverted, push back to to 45 up line, 2/4 pt roll, push to level upright exit
5
1/2 square outside loop, full snap (+ or -) in vert down line, exit inverted (TA)
3
(inverted exit)
6
Six sided loop on corner with 1/2 rolls in legs 1, 3, 4, 6, exit inverted (U)
4
Push at center no rolls on vertical legs. (inverted exit)
7
Humpty with options: Push, push, push, 1/2 roll up and a full roll on the downline, exit inverted. Option 1/4 roll up 3/4 roll down, exit inverted (TA)
3
(inverted exit)
8
4/8 opposite from inverted, exit inverted (D)
5
(inverted exit)
9
Stall turn with 1/2 rolls reversed going up and 1/2 roll down, exit upright (TA)
3
10
avalanche with 1/2 roll in and out (U)
4
1/2 roll to inverted, perform an outside loop with a snap at the top, complete the loop and perform a 1/2 roll to exit upright.
11
Half reverse Cuban Eight with a 1/2 roll on the 45 (TA)
3
12
Knife edge flight with 1 1/4 rolls in and out. (D)
4
exit upright
13
Top Hat, 3/4 roll up and down exit upright (TA)
2
14
Figure Z with 2 consecutive rolls (U)
4
15
3 turn spin exit inverted (TA)
2
16
Reverse cuban eight with full rolls from inverted(D)
4
17
Stall turn with half roll down (TA)
2
18
Loop with integrated roll in top 180 (U)*
5
19
Landing (U)
1
Total K-factor
62
Goal is 60 to 63
Minimum of 2, max of 3 cross box maneuvers
Minimum of 2, max of 3 downwind rolling
maneuvers
Minimum of 2, max of 4 K5 maneuvers
Minimum of 2, max of 3 Snap Rolls
Minimum of 1, max of 2 Spins
Minimum 2 stall turns, 4 max
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From: Stuart Chale via NSRCA-discussion<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 3:24 AM
To: Frackowiak Tony<mailto:frackowiak at sbcglobal.net>; General pattern discussion<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NSRCA Leadership / Masters different sequence
Tony thanks for looking at this with an open mind and critical eye. To be honest I wasn’t going to initially post this but was convinced to by a group of D 1 flyers at the contest yesterday. If for no other reason than to show that the committee did consider a more “conventional” sequence in addition to the one that was sent out.
And I did change a few things last night after spending the full day in the sun and I promise only 1 beer at dinner so I may have messed up a thing or 2.
Can this be the basis of the recommended sequence? As I understand the process the committee sends the proposals to the BOD. They review and in this case have asked for membership feedback and then make their recommendations to the committee. If the BOD decides that sequence 1 is too difficult and this one meets the goals of the NSRCA better then they can ask us to tweak this one instead. Did I send this out at the request of the entire sequence committee? No I did not.
#4 From top of the box push 3/8 loop to a 45 2 of 4 push back to level inverted flight full roll across the bottom push back 3/8 loop to a 45 degree up line towards top center of the box 2 of 4 and push 3/8 loop back to horizontal (upright)
Can easily make a case to be a K5 😊
#6 correct ½ rolls only I will have to review current maneuvers for the K factor. Pretty late right now but I wanted to provide a response as best I could.
#12 comes from P19 and that is the k factor they gave it so that is what we were using right or wrong we have to start somewhere.
Double key only reason it is in here is it is in P19 and as I stated I sort of like having a few of the same maneuvers as FAI (not the clown dance) I need to try to fly it to see if it really a good maneuver or not but it is certainly an easy place to swap to a K4.
Roll reversal: The knife edge flight you have to roll the other way after knife edge to come out upright. But one can be put in the stall turns as well or somewhere else if we think another one needs to be included.
Snaps. You are correct I misplaced one trying to simplify the pattern a little. Maybe after the 1 1/4 roll in the middle of the knife edge flight 😊
I will look at the sequence and get one back in there.
Stuart
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From: Frackowiak Tony<mailto:frackowiak at sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 1:48 AM
To: Stuart Chale<mailto:schale1 at outlook.com>; General pattern discussion<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NSRCA Leadership / Masters different sequence
Stuart,
#4. The description doesn't seem to make sense. Isn't it an upright entry, PUSH to 45, 2 of 4 roll, PULL to level flight, Full roll from upright to upright, PULL to 45, 2 of 4 roll, push to exit upright? Or am I missing something? Also, it seems to be pushing being a K4. Here are the two closest examples in the Guide.
Triangular loop (base at bottom) with half rolls in all legs, exit inverted (K4)
Triangular loop from top (base at bottom) w/ half rolls on 45 degree legs, 2/4-pt roll on
base leg (K5)
It would seem that the maneuver proposed should be a K5. You might want to go with 1/2 rolls on all legs and redo a few things to get the upright/inverted thing going again.
#6. I had to actually draw this one out to visualize it. Just so I'm sure, you enter inverted and at center push to a 30 degree angle? I like the maneuver but I think it's really a K5 not a 4. The Guide has no 6-sided loop on corner, but a standard 6-sided with just a 2 of 4 on top is a K4.
#12. I still feel that a very good case can be made that this maneuver is a K5, not a K4.
Both snaps are in turnaround maneuvers. You need a center snap. Guide says: Minimum of two Snap Rolls but no more than three (one may be a turnaround maneuver).
The only roll reversal is in the 4/8 opposite. You might want to incorporate another in one of the looping maneuvers. Maybe in the Figure Z. Maybe a 3 of 4 with a reverse 3 of 4. Or something less. Maybe just reverse the 2 rolls. But that might bump it to a K5 also.
You have to address the snap issue and in my opinion you have too many K5 maneuvers. Maximum according to the Guide is 4. I think this has to be addressed. I would dump the Double Key and use a K4 from the Guide in it's place as a start.
Otherwise to me it looks like a better pattern to work with then the current proposal.
Is there any chance that what is worked out here might actually make it in as an official proposal?
Tony Frackowiak
On Jul 8, 2017, at 9:26 PM, Stuart Chale via NSRCA-discussion wrote:
Thank you, you are correct I swapped the Cuban with a roll to allow better entry to the knife edge roll
To keep the Cuban an inverted entry and exit we can change the spin to 3 turn spin with an inverted exit (may bump the k?)
And change the stall turn to 1/2 roll down only.
Masters proposal
Maneuver
KF
Notes:
1
Takeoff (U)
1
2
Double Immelman with knife edge flight (U)
5
Pull to 1/2 loop, immediate 1/4 roll, knife edge flight, 1/4 roll same direction, immediate push to 1/2 outside loop, immediate 1/4 roll, knife edge flight, 1/4 roll same direction to level upright exit
<olpknaibinkfmdnp.png>
3
1/2 square loop on corner with 2/4 pt rolls in 2nd leg (TA)
2
4
Pyramid loop, 2/4, Full roll, 2/4 (D)
4
Push back to 45 deg down line, 2/4 pt roll, push to level flight, Full roll from inverted, push back to to 45 up line, 2/4 pt roll, push to level upright exit
5
1/2 square outside loop, full snap (+ or -) in vert down line, exit inverted (TA)
3
(inverted exit)
6
Six sided loop on corner with 1/2 rolls in legs 1, 3, 4, 6, exit inverted (U)
4
Push at center no rolls on vertical legs. (inverted exit)
7
Humpty with options: Push, push, push, 1/2 roll up and a full roll on the downline, exit inverted. Option 1/4 roll up 3/4 roll down, exit inverted (TA)
3
(inverted exit)
8
4/8 opposite from inverted, exit inverted (D)
5
(inverted exit)
9
Stall turn with 2/2 rolls up and 1/2 roll down, exit upright (TA)
3
10
Double Key with full roll, 1/2 roll, 1/2 roll, full roll (U)
5
Pull to a vert up line, full roll, pull back to a 45 deg down line, 1/2 roll, push to a 45 deg up line, 1/2 roll, pull to a vertical downline, full roll, pull to level upright exit
11
Half reverse Cuban Eight with a positive snap roll roll on the 45 (TA)
3
exit inverted
12
Knife edge flight with 1 1/4 rolls in and out. (D)
4
13
Top Hat, 3/4 roll up and down exit upright (TA)
2
14
Figure Z with 2 consecutive rolls (U)
4
15
3 turn spin exit inverted (TA)
2
16
Reverse cuban eight with full rolls from inverted(D)
4
17
Stall turn with half roll down (TA)
2
18
Loop with integrated roll in top 180 (U)*
5
19
Landing (U)
1
Total K-factor
62
Goal is 60 to 63
On 7/9/2017 12:12 AM, John Gayer via NSRCA-discussion wrote:
Stuart,
I believe the reverse cuban with full rolls should be from upright.
Good luck with this.
John
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