[NSRCA-discussion] NSRCA-discussion Digest, Vol 130, Issue 6
Dr. Mike Harrison
drmikedds at sbcglobal.net
Mon Sep 12 06:12:41 AKDT 2016
-----Original Message-----
From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On
Behalf Of STEVE S via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Thursday, September 8, 2016 4:57 PM
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NSRCA-discussion Digest, Vol 130, Issue 6
My opinion here. I could not let this pass without commenting, as I spend
tons of time promoting pattern and trying to get new flyers.
We do not need any more rules. I fly intermediate but you know what, when I
get to advanced and want to fly a Kaos 60 which I may, does that mean I am
out? Wow should I quit now?
*there would be no "more rules". There would be a change to existing rules.
There are already requirements to the type of aircraft allowed to fly in the
competition.
And as far as sportsman being easy , you guys all forgot what it took to fly
straight and level. I judge you guys and guess what a lot of flyers could
use some basics about flying straight and level in upper classes. Keep
sportsman simple, get people in and flying.
* agree,
Forcing people to spend money is the reason we have issues now. Let's focus
on helping the lower classes, not punishing them.
* I totally agree. changing the aircraft requirement addresses that issue.
I spent substantial time explaining how the cost of current aircraft is
destroying the incentive for anyone to try pattern or allow their kids to
try it. Let me be clear. In my view sportsman should allow anything you
have to be entered. Just show up and fly. The problem is the next step-the
expense of competing on a level field with others in intermediate and
advanced.
Who cares about the plane as long as it is under 5,000 grams and 2 meters,
in sportsman and above. Skill level is what we are talking about.
*agree
The clothes do not make a man and the plane does not make the flyer except
at the very top when competing at a world class level. I guarantee you 1
thing, any of the top FAI flyers would beat any of the lower classes with a
smaller plane. Skill is why, not an expensive plane.
*agreed. the issue is a level playing field. If the competitor doesn't
think its fair, he won't stay or enter.
As a CD I really don't care if they fly a 30 CC extra 300 gas engine that is
larger or heavier in the club class. The bottom line is we do pattern for a
purpose. Sometimes it takes time to develop that purpose. I am creating a
club class next year and giving bigger awards to the entry guys. As we all
know it takes time and effort to foster and promote the pattern culture.
* great!
Enough of the rules.
*?
SKILL is what Pattern is about and competing is the way we validate our
efforts and time.
Again just my 2 cents.
* I think there is a mix of issues here. One is creating an even simpler
class to entice new flyers. The other is the reason why people do not enter
pattern. We definitely have lost "market share" but there are more issues
than that. I addressed that previously.
Mike
Steve Sobolewski CD
-----Original Message-----
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Behalf Of nsrca-discussion-request at lists.nsrca.org
Sent: Thursday, September 8, 2016 3:00 PM
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Subject: NSRCA-discussion Digest, Vol 130, Issue 6
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics (Dr. Mike Harrison)
2. Re: New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics (Scott McHarg)
3. Re: New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics (Tom Simes)
4. Re: New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics (Vicente Bortone)
5. Re: New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics (Jeff and Claire)
6. Re: New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics (Stuart Chale)
7. Re: New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics (towerguy102 at aol.com)
8. Re: New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics (Atwood, Mark)
9. Re: New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics (Dr. Mike Harrison)
10. Re: New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics (Dr. Mike Harrison)
11. Re: New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics (Patternpilot One)
12. Re: New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics (Jay Marshall)
13. Re: New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics (Ron)
14. Re: New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics (Anthony Romano)
15. Re: New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics (KEVIN DUNCAN)
16. Re: New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics (tretas513 at yahoo.com)
17. Re: New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics (Ron Hansen)
18. Re: New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics (Dave Lockhart)
19. Re: Planes for sale (Jay Gerber)
20. Re: New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics (Ron Hansen)
21. Re: New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics (Atwood, Mark)
22. Re: Planes for sale (W Anthony Abdullah)
23. September K-Factor (Scott McHarg)
24. Re: New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics (Xavier Mouraux)
25. Re: New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics (Xavier Mouraux)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 15:04:49 -0500
From: "Dr. Mike Harrison" <drmikedds at sbcglobal.net>
To: "'Matthew Finley'" <rcfin02 at msn.com>
Cc: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision
Aerobatics
Message-ID: <008c01d20943$174a9bb0$45dfd310$@sbcglobal.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
You are correct but human nature gets in the way. Making a rule to limit
this fixes a lot of issues. These smaller planes fly very well. Got to
create rules that perpetuate less expense and less difficulty, just being
voluntary is not gonna work.
Mike
From: Matthew Finley [mailto:rcfin02 at msn.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 7, 2016 2:28 PM
To: Dr. Mike Harrison <drmikedds at sbcglobal.net>; General pattern discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>; 'Scott McHarg' <scmcharg at gmail.com>
Subject: RE: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
My thoughts are this, and only in my opinion.... I have the choice to fly
any aircraft I choose in any class I choose as long as it is under 11
pounds, and no larger than 2 meter ( that's also pretty loose, as I have
never seen a scale taken out at a regular meet for 13 years or more). If
someone wants to go out and buy a 6s or 8s capable aerobatic bird, and fly
Sportsman, Intermesiate, Advanced, masters, or even FAI with it, go for it.
We all know that it will be smaller thus harder to judge, maneuvers will be
smaller, and etc.... But they are not required to have a 2 meter ship. I
don't see why a rule change has to be implemented in those regards as that
is the way it is now ??
Matthew E Finley
Q.C.I Technical Assistant
248-794-8487 mobile
-------- Original message --------
From: "Dr. Mike Harrison via NSRCA-discussion"
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>
Date: 9/7/16 2:38 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: 'Scott McHarg' <scmcharg at gmail.com <mailto:scmcharg at gmail.com> >,
'General pattern discussion' <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> >
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
I am hesitant to get in this discussion but I want to express that I believe
we are in significant decline and I opine that it is because of the expense,
complexity and difficulty of flying and competing. The fundamental reason,
I believe, is the cost, complexity and burden of time to simply use the
current aircraft. I have drafted but not submitted a rules change to affect
that issue.
Fundamentally, I submit that the beginning classes be restricted to smaller
aircraft with limitations of powerplant sizes.
The existing current pilots flying in those classes have their current
aircraft grandfathered in.
These classes would be sportsman, intermediate, and advanced.
If you would research the cost of aircraft w 22volt systems vs our current
systems you will find the cost of smaller aircraft to be ? to 1/3 the cost
of the current 2m plane.
The vast majority of parents will not spend $4000-5000 for their kid to
compete a few times in the beginning classes, nor commit a monthly expense
of $200+ or whatever to maintain. And then there is the crash and destroy
$1000?s in one aircraft. Even adults won?t commit to that kind of expense
themselves.
There is more to this but that is the basic underlying cause of the disease.
Mike
From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On
Behalf Of Scott McHarg via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Wednesday, September 7, 2016 9:49 AM
To: tretas513 at yahoo.com <mailto:tretas513 at yahoo.com> ; General pattern
discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> >
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
Mr. Lukas and I were having an offline conversation. We were discussing why
the new guys aren't getting into pattern. The question, essentially, was
what's the difference between those getting into other facets vs. pattern.
This is my opinion and will be part of my article this month in the
K-Factor:
The answer I'm about to give you makes it sound like all is lost. I don't
believe it is (which is why we came up with the Club sequence) but let's
just stick to what we know and what is obvious from the assumption
standpoint for a moment.
The answer to your question can be one word only or it can be a million
adjectives of the same word. That word is "cool". The kids coming up want
instant gratification, want to be cool, want notoriety, want to be thought
of as the kid who can show off the best. You simply can't do that with
pattern. Have you watched the fingers of these kids that fly 3D at Joe Nall
or IRCHA? They're slamming sticks. Then, watch the planes / helicopters
and see how much of the stick movement actually equates to control over the
aircraft. Half of the time is spent simply recovering from mistakes. :)
For some reason, the world has changed into a Social Media frenzy. Kids
feel like they're missing out if we as parents threaten to take away their
phones as punishment. Kids don't need to go outside to talk to friends
because they can do it on the couch with their phones. They want instant
gratification and instant knowledge. Most of the time, their friends know
what's going on before other people at the event know because of this.
Pattern is nothing like this mentality at all. Pattern takes a lot of
practice (as you know) and patience and set up and checking to make sure
everything is perfect. Practicing is boring unless you're doing it.
There's no "wow factor". In my opinion, THIS is what we're battling. In
pattern, you actually have to fly the aircraft perfectly. There's no gyro
to make you look better (Quads, Helicopters and Drones), there's not that
much of an adrenaline rush (until you're in front of the judges) and there's
no screen to stare at like in FPV racing. Pattern is an art and it takes
that special person, the guy that wants to be artistic, to be a pattern
pilot. Our costs are high for the best of the best which all of these kids
want. They don't want a 1980 Super Kaos to learn the skills required. In
almost all other facets, you can have quite good equipment, that is accepted
by their peers, for a lot less than what it would take to have a "not bottom
of the line" pattern plane.
Scott A. McHarg
VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot
Texas A&M University
PPL - ASEL
Remote Pilot Certified Under FAA Part 107
On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 9:40 AM, tretas513--- via NSRCA-discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> wrote:
Most pattern fliers know why pattern is declining but won't admit it...too
much expense, too much time invested for practice and traveling, and in my
opinion (and a lot of others) turnaround sucks !
Flying airplanes and competing is supposed to be fun...it used to be...still
is in SPA !!
My entire SPA airplane ready to fly costs half what the engine in my 2 meter
cost and most SPA contests are one day meets...no motels !!
Disclaimer: just my opinion !!
Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE Smartphone
------ Original message------
From: Whodaddy Whodaddy via NSRCA-discussion
Date: Wed, Sep 7, 2016 8:40 AM
To: Jas S;
Cc: General pattern discussion;
Subject:Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
?
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 6, 2016, at 9:11 PM, Jas S <justanotherflyr at gmail.com
<mailto:justanotherflyr at gmail.com> > wrote:
Isn't that like hearing a Masters pilot say the roll on the top of a loop
shouldn't be in Masters lol. Love ya Gary
On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Whodaddy Whodaddy via NSRCA-discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> wrote:
Sportsman isnt easy enough ????
Not sure how it could get more basic ..
But wat ever works lord knows we need something to attract new blood or
bring old blood back...
G
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 6, 2016, at 1:00 PM, Scott McHarg via NSRCA-discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> wrote:
All,
This is a note from Jon Carter from the NSRCA BoD. FYI!
Announcing the NSRCA ?Club Class!
Whether you want to call it Club class or Novice class or whatever, it?s OK,
as long as we get more people flying pattern! What is this? Good question,
we have heard from the membership that it would be nice for the NSRCA to
define a non-rulebook pattern entry level event that a CD could offer if
they so decided. This would be a non-turnaround ?old-school? type of pattern
that any club flyer could do and yet still be challenged by. It will give
the CD the opportunity to grab some of the ?hot dog? type sport flyers at
his club, and maybe some old time pattern pilots, and hand them a
maneuver/downgrade sheet and say ?come on out to the pattern contest next
weekend and see what you can do!? Who knows, if he can get three or four
club flyers to come out maybe some will think, ?Hey, this is fun! I could
learn that Sportsman pattern? Worst case it will get some more club flyers
to participate in local events which always makes it easier to ?sell? a
pattern contest to the local club officer
s! So, dust off those older pattern planes and those sport planes and come
out and have some fun! Look on the NSRCA website under the Sequence tab for
the maneuver list and descriptions.
<https://nsrca.us/index.php/sequences> https://nsrca.us/index.php/sequences
Scott A. McHarg
VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot
Texas A&M University
PPL - ASEL
Remote Pilot Certified Under FAA Part 107
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--
Jason
http://jasonshangar.weebly.com/
_______________________________________________
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 15:07:08 -0500
From: Scott McHarg <scmcharg at gmail.com>
To: "Dr. Mike Harrison" <drmikedds at sbcglobal.net>, General pattern
discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision
Aerobatics
Message-ID:
<CALDH1Uqs2RqBNoMLpUDdGcgLWnL1KP+JfL+hrAHAta1caxPT9w at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Mike's right. It won't work because a few can afford the 2M modern planes
and if one can have it, they all must have it.
*Scott A. McHarg*
VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot
Texas A&M University
PPL - ASEL
Remote Pilot Certified Under FAA Part 107
On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 3:04 PM, Dr. Mike Harrison via NSRCA-discussion <
nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> You are correct but human nature gets in the way. Making a rule to limit
> this fixes a lot of issues. These smaller planes fly very well. Got to
> create rules that perpetuate less expense and less difficulty, just being
> voluntary is not gonna work.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> *From:* Matthew Finley [mailto:rcfin02 at msn.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 7, 2016 2:28 PM
> *To:* Dr. Mike Harrison <drmikedds at sbcglobal.net>; General pattern
> discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>; 'Scott McHarg' <
> scmcharg at gmail.com>
> *Subject:* RE: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
>
>
>
> My thoughts are this, and only in my opinion.... I have the choice to fly
> any aircraft I choose in any class I choose as long as it is under 11
> pounds, and no larger than 2 meter ( that's also pretty loose, as I have
> never seen a scale taken out at a regular meet for 13 years or more). If
> someone wants to go out and buy a 6s or 8s capable aerobatic bird, and fly
> Sportsman, Intermesiate, Advanced, masters, or even FAI with it, go for
it.
> We all know that it will be smaller thus harder to judge, maneuvers will
be
> smaller, and etc.... But they are not required to have a 2 meter ship. I
> don't see why a rule change has to be implemented in those regards as that
> is the way it is now ??
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Matthew E Finley
>
> Q.C.I Technical Assistant
>
> 248-794-8487 mobile
>
>
>
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
>
> From: "Dr. Mike Harrison via NSRCA-discussion" <
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>
> Date: 9/7/16 2:38 PM (GMT-05:00)
>
> To: 'Scott McHarg' <scmcharg at gmail.com>, 'General pattern discussion' <
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
>
>
>
> I am hesitant to get in this discussion but I want to express that I
> believe we are in significant decline and I opine that it is because of
the
> expense, complexity and difficulty of flying and competing. The
> fundamental reason, I believe, is the cost, complexity and burden of time
> to simply use the current aircraft. I have drafted but not submitted a
> rules change to affect that issue.
>
> Fundamentally, I submit that the beginning classes be restricted to
> smaller aircraft with limitations of powerplant sizes.
>
> The existing current pilots flying in those classes have their current
> aircraft grandfathered in.
>
> These classes would be sportsman, intermediate, and advanced.
>
>
>
> If you would research the cost of aircraft w 22volt systems vs our current
> systems you will find the cost of smaller aircraft to be ? to 1/3 the cost
> of the current 2m plane.
>
>
>
> The vast majority of parents will not spend $4000-5000 for their kid to
> compete a few times in the beginning classes, nor commit a monthly expense
> of $200+ or whatever to maintain. And then there is the crash and destroy
> $1000?s in one aircraft. Even adults won?t commit to that kind of expense
> themselves.
>
>
>
> There is more to this but that is the basic underlying cause of the
> disease.
>
>
>
>
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> *From:* NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>] *On Behalf Of *Scott McHarg
> via NSRCA-discussion
> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 7, 2016 9:49 AM
> *To:* tretas513 at yahoo.com; General pattern discussion <
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
>
>
>
> Mr. Lukas and I were having an offline conversation. We were discussing
> why the new guys aren't getting into pattern. The question, essentially,
> was what's the difference between those getting into other facets vs.
> pattern. This is my opinion and will be part of my article this month in
> the K-Factor:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The answer I'm about to give you makes it sound like all is lost. I don't
> believe it is (which is why we came up with the Club sequence) but let's
> just stick to what we know and what is obvious from the assumption
> standpoint for a moment.
>
>
>
> The answer to your question can be one word only or it can be a million
> adjectives of the same word. That word is "cool". The kids coming up
want
> instant gratification, want to be cool, want notoriety, want to be thought
> of as the kid who can show off the best. You simply can't do that with
> pattern. Have you watched the fingers of these kids that fly 3D at Joe
> Nall or IRCHA? They're slamming sticks. Then, watch the planes /
> helicopters and see how much of the stick movement actually equates to
> control over the aircraft. Half of the time is spent simply recovering
> from mistakes. :)
>
>
>
> For some reason, the world has changed into a Social Media frenzy. Kids
> feel like they're missing out if we as parents threaten to take away their
> phones as punishment. Kids don't need to go outside to talk to friends
> because they can do it on the couch with their phones. They want instant
> gratification and instant knowledge. Most of the time, their friends know
> what's going on before other people at the event know because of this.
>
>
>
> Pattern is nothing like this mentality at all. Pattern takes a lot of
> practice (as you know) and patience and set up and checking to make sure
> everything is perfect. Practicing is boring unless you're doing it.
> There's no "wow factor". In my opinion, THIS is what we're battling. In
> pattern, you actually have to fly the aircraft perfectly. There's no gyro
> to make you look better (Quads, Helicopters and Drones), there's not that
> much of an adrenaline rush (until you're in front of the judges) and
> there's no screen to stare at like in FPV racing. Pattern is an art and
it
> takes that special person, the guy that wants to be artistic, to be a
> pattern pilot. Our costs are high for the best of the best which all of
> these kids want. They don't want a 1980 Super Kaos to learn the skills
> required. In almost all other facets, you can have quite good equipment,
> that is accepted by their peers, for a lot less than what it would take to
> have a "not bottom of the line" pattern plane.
>
>
> *Scott A. McHarg*
>
> VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot
>
> Texas A&M University
>
> PPL - ASEL
>
> Remote Pilot Certified Under FAA Part 107
>
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 9:40 AM, tretas513--- via NSRCA-discussion <
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>
> Most pattern fliers know why pattern is declining but won't admit it...too
> much expense, too much time invested for practice and traveling, and in
my
> opinion (and a lot of others) turnaround sucks !
>
> Flying airplanes and competing is supposed to be fun...it used to
> be...still is in SPA !!
>
> My entire SPA airplane ready to fly costs half what the engine in my 2
> meter cost and most SPA contests are one day meets...no motels !!
>
> Disclaimer: just my opinion !!
>
>
>
> *Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE Smartphone*
>
>
>
> ------ Original message------
>
> *From: *Whodaddy Whodaddy via NSRCA-discussion
>
> *Date: *Wed, Sep 7, 2016 8:40 AM
>
> *To: *Jas S;
>
> *Cc: *General pattern discussion;
>
> *Subject:*Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
>
>
>
> ?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On Sep 6, 2016, at 9:11 PM, Jas S <justanotherflyr at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Isn't that like hearing a Masters pilot say the roll on the top of a loop
> shouldn't be in Masters lol. Love ya Gary
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Whodaddy Whodaddy via NSRCA-discussion <
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>
> Sportsman isnt easy enough ????
>
>
>
> Not sure how it could get more basic ..
>
>
>
> But wat ever works lord knows we need something to attract new blood or
> bring old blood back...
>
>
>
>
>
> G
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On Sep 6, 2016, at 1:00 PM, Scott McHarg via NSRCA-discussion <
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>
> All,
>
>
>
> This is a note from Jon Carter from the NSRCA BoD. FYI!
>
>
>
> Announcing the NSRCA ?Club Class!
>
> Whether you want to call it Club class or Novice class or whatever, it?s
> OK, as long as we get more people flying pattern! What is this? Good
> question, we have heard from the membership that it would be nice for the
> NSRCA to define a non-rulebook pattern entry level event that a CD could
> offer if they so decided. This would be a non-turnaround ?old-school? type
> of pattern that any club flyer could do and yet still be challenged by. It
> will give the CD the opportunity to grab some of the ?hot dog? type sport
> flyers at his club, and maybe some old time pattern pilots, and hand them
a
> maneuver/downgrade sheet and say ?come on out to the pattern contest next
> weekend and see what you can do!? Who knows, if he can get three or four
> club flyers to come out maybe some will think, ?Hey, this is fun! I could
> learn that Sportsman pattern? Worst case it will get some more club flyers
> to participate in local events which always makes it easier to ?sell? a
> pattern contest to the local club officers! So, dust off those older
> pattern planes and those sport planes and come out and have some fun! Look
> on the NSRCA website under the Sequence tab for the maneuver list and
> descriptions.
>
> https://nsrca.us/index.php/sequences
>
>
>
> *Scott A. McHarg*
>
> VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot
>
> Texas A&M University
>
> PPL - ASEL
>
> Remote Pilot Certified Under FAA Part 107
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Jason
> http://jasonshangar.weebly.com/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 12:15:02 -0800
From: Tom Simes <simestd at netexpress.com>
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision
Aerobatics
Message-ID: <57D07546.8030406 at netexpress.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
What about offering some kind of reasoned and documented scoring bonus
in the feeder classes for using smaller aircraft?
On 09/07/16 12:07, Scott McHarg via NSRCA-discussion wrote:
> Mike's right. It won't work because a few can afford the 2M modern planes
> and if one can have it, they all must have it.
>
> *Scott A. McHarg*
> VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot
> Texas A&M University
> PPL - ASEL
> Remote Pilot Certified Under FAA Part 107
>
> On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 3:04 PM, Dr. Mike Harrison via NSRCA-discussion <
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>
>> You are correct but human nature gets in the way. Making a rule to limit
>> this fixes a lot of issues. These smaller planes fly very well. Got to
>> create rules that perpetuate less expense and less difficulty, just being
>> voluntary is not gonna work.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Matthew Finley [mailto:rcfin02 at msn.com]
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 7, 2016 2:28 PM
>> *To:* Dr. Mike Harrison <drmikedds at sbcglobal.net>; General pattern
>> discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>; 'Scott McHarg' <
>> scmcharg at gmail.com>
>> *Subject:* RE: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
>>
>>
>>
>> My thoughts are this, and only in my opinion.... I have the choice to fly
>> any aircraft I choose in any class I choose as long as it is under 11
>> pounds, and no larger than 2 meter ( that's also pretty loose, as I have
>> never seen a scale taken out at a regular meet for 13 years or more). If
>> someone wants to go out and buy a 6s or 8s capable aerobatic bird, and
fly
>> Sportsman, Intermesiate, Advanced, masters, or even FAI with it, go for
it.
>> We all know that it will be smaller thus harder to judge, maneuvers will
be
>> smaller, and etc.... But they are not required to have a 2 meter ship. I
>> don't see why a rule change has to be implemented in those regards as
that
>> is the way it is now ??
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Matthew E Finley
>>
>> Q.C.I Technical Assistant
>>
>> 248-794-8487 mobile
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -------- Original message --------
>>
>> From: "Dr. Mike Harrison via NSRCA-discussion" <
>> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>
>> Date: 9/7/16 2:38 PM (GMT-05:00)
>>
>> To: 'Scott McHarg' <scmcharg at gmail.com>, 'General pattern discussion' <
>> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
>>
>>
>>
>> I am hesitant to get in this discussion but I want to express that I
>> believe we are in significant decline and I opine that it is because of
the
>> expense, complexity and difficulty of flying and competing. The
>> fundamental reason, I believe, is the cost, complexity and burden of time
>> to simply use the current aircraft. I have drafted but not submitted a
>> rules change to affect that issue.
>>
>> Fundamentally, I submit that the beginning classes be restricted to
>> smaller aircraft with limitations of powerplant sizes.
>>
>> The existing current pilots flying in those classes have their current
>> aircraft grandfathered in.
>>
>> These classes would be sportsman, intermediate, and advanced.
>>
>>
>>
>> If you would research the cost of aircraft w 22volt systems vs our
current
>> systems you will find the cost of smaller aircraft to be ? to 1/3 the
cost
>> of the current 2m plane.
>>
>>
>>
>> The vast majority of parents will not spend $4000-5000 for their kid to
>> compete a few times in the beginning classes, nor commit a monthly
expense
>> of $200+ or whatever to maintain. And then there is the crash and destroy
>> $1000?s in one aircraft. Even adults won?t commit to that kind of
expense
>> themselves.
>>
>>
>>
>> There is more to this but that is the basic underlying cause of the
>> disease.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>> <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>] *On Behalf Of *Scott McHarg
>> via NSRCA-discussion
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 7, 2016 9:49 AM
>> *To:* tretas513 at yahoo.com; General pattern discussion <
>> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
>>
>>
>>
>> Mr. Lukas and I were having an offline conversation. We were discussing
>> why the new guys aren't getting into pattern. The question, essentially,
>> was what's the difference between those getting into other facets vs.
>> pattern. This is my opinion and will be part of my article this month in
>> the K-Factor:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The answer I'm about to give you makes it sound like all is lost. I
don't
>> believe it is (which is why we came up with the Club sequence) but let's
>> just stick to what we know and what is obvious from the assumption
>> standpoint for a moment.
>>
>>
>>
>> The answer to your question can be one word only or it can be a million
>> adjectives of the same word. That word is "cool". The kids coming up
want
>> instant gratification, want to be cool, want notoriety, want to be
thought
>> of as the kid who can show off the best. You simply can't do that with
>> pattern. Have you watched the fingers of these kids that fly 3D at Joe
>> Nall or IRCHA? They're slamming sticks. Then, watch the planes /
>> helicopters and see how much of the stick movement actually equates to
>> control over the aircraft. Half of the time is spent simply recovering
>> from mistakes. :)
>>
>>
>>
>> For some reason, the world has changed into a Social Media frenzy. Kids
>> feel like they're missing out if we as parents threaten to take away
their
>> phones as punishment. Kids don't need to go outside to talk to friends
>> because they can do it on the couch with their phones. They want instant
>> gratification and instant knowledge. Most of the time, their friends
know
>> what's going on before other people at the event know because of this.
>>
>>
>>
>> Pattern is nothing like this mentality at all. Pattern takes a lot of
>> practice (as you know) and patience and set up and checking to make sure
>> everything is perfect. Practicing is boring unless you're doing it.
>> There's no "wow factor". In my opinion, THIS is what we're battling. In
>> pattern, you actually have to fly the aircraft perfectly. There's no
gyro
>> to make you look better (Quads, Helicopters and Drones), there's not that
>> much of an adrenaline rush (until you're in front of the judges) and
>> there's no screen to stare at like in FPV racing. Pattern is an art and
it
>> takes that special person, the guy that wants to be artistic, to be a
>> pattern pilot. Our costs are high for the best of the best which all of
>> these kids want. They don't want a 1980 Super Kaos to learn the skills
>> required. In almost all other facets, you can have quite good equipment,
>> that is accepted by their peers, for a lot less than what it would take
to
>> have a "not bottom of the line" pattern plane.
>>
>>
>> *Scott A. McHarg*
>>
>> VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot
>>
>> Texas A&M University
>>
>> PPL - ASEL
>>
>> Remote Pilot Certified Under FAA Part 107
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 9:40 AM, tretas513--- via NSRCA-discussion <
>> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>>
>> Most pattern fliers know why pattern is declining but won't admit
it...too
>> much expense, too much time invested for practice and traveling, and in
my
>> opinion (and a lot of others) turnaround sucks !
>>
>> Flying airplanes and competing is supposed to be fun...it used to
>> be...still is in SPA !!
>>
>> My entire SPA airplane ready to fly costs half what the engine in my 2
>> meter cost and most SPA contests are one day meets...no motels !!
>>
>> Disclaimer: just my opinion !!
>>
>>
>>
>> *Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE Smartphone*
>>
>>
>>
>> ------ Original message------
>>
>> *From: *Whodaddy Whodaddy via NSRCA-discussion
>>
>> *Date: *Wed, Sep 7, 2016 8:40 AM
>>
>> *To: *Jas S;
>>
>> *Cc: *General pattern discussion;
>>
>> *Subject:*Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
>>
>>
>>
>> ?
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
>> On Sep 6, 2016, at 9:11 PM, Jas S <justanotherflyr at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Isn't that like hearing a Masters pilot say the roll on the top of a loop
>> shouldn't be in Masters lol. Love ya Gary
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Whodaddy Whodaddy via NSRCA-discussion <
>> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>>
>> Sportsman isnt easy enough ????
>>
>>
>>
>> Not sure how it could get more basic ..
>>
>>
>>
>> But wat ever works lord knows we need something to attract new blood or
>> bring old blood back...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> G
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
>> On Sep 6, 2016, at 1:00 PM, Scott McHarg via NSRCA-discussion <
>> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>>
>> All,
>>
>>
>>
>> This is a note from Jon Carter from the NSRCA BoD. FYI!
>>
>>
>>
>> Announcing the NSRCA ?Club Class!
>>
>> Whether you want to call it Club class or Novice class or whatever, it?s
>> OK, as long as we get more people flying pattern! What is this? Good
>> question, we have heard from the membership that it would be nice for the
>> NSRCA to define a non-rulebook pattern entry level event that a CD could
>> offer if they so decided. This would be a non-turnaround ?old-school?
type
>> of pattern that any club flyer could do and yet still be challenged by.
It
>> will give the CD the opportunity to grab some of the ?hot dog? type sport
>> flyers at his club, and maybe some old time pattern pilots, and hand them
a
>> maneuver/downgrade sheet and say ?come on out to the pattern contest next
>> weekend and see what you can do!? Who knows, if he can get three or four
>> club flyers to come out maybe some will think, ?Hey, this is fun! I could
>> learn that Sportsman pattern? Worst case it will get some more club
flyers
>> to participate in local events which always makes it easier to ?sell? a
>> pattern contest to the local club officers! So, dust off those older
>> pattern planes and those sport planes and come out and have some fun!
Look
>> on the NSRCA website under the Sequence tab for the maneuver list and
>> descriptions.
>>
>> https://nsrca.us/index.php/sequences
>>
>>
>>
>> *Scott A. McHarg*
>>
>> VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot
>>
>> Texas A&M University
>>
>> PPL - ASEL
>>
>> Remote Pilot Certified Under FAA Part 107
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Jason
>> http://jasonshangar.weebly.com/
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
--
Tom
======================================================================
"Z80 system stack overflow. Shut 'er down Scotty, she's
sucking mud again!" - Error message on XENIX v3.0
Tom Simes simestd at netexpress.com
======================================================================
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 15:17:38 -0500
From: Vicente Bortone <vincebrc at gmail.com>
To: "Dr. Mike Harrison" <drmikedds at sbcglobal.net>, General pattern
discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision
Aerobatics
Message-ID:
<CA+BC4bpJBu17kaPSRTPdR-BW99CwFKsEb2eh=icT+zAPfNj_zw at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
I agree with Mike. I think IMAC is facing similar issue. In order to be
competitive the perception is that IMAC planes have to be bigger than 40%
with 4 cylinder 200 cc. I think IMAC will be able to get more
participation just limiting size and/or engine for the lower
classes. Sorry to bring another group but I think we are facing similar
problem. I fly both and I have seen the same issue with lower
participation in my area in the last few years.
Vicente "Vince" Bortone
On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 3:04 PM, Dr. Mike Harrison via NSRCA-discussion <
nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> You are correct but human nature gets in the way. Making a rule to limit
> this fixes a lot of issues. These smaller planes fly very well. Got to
> create rules that perpetuate less expense and less difficulty, just being
> voluntary is not gonna work.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> *From:* Matthew Finley [mailto:rcfin02 at msn.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 7, 2016 2:28 PM
> *To:* Dr. Mike Harrison <drmikedds at sbcglobal.net>; General pattern
> discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>; 'Scott McHarg' <
> scmcharg at gmail.com>
> *Subject:* RE: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
>
>
>
> My thoughts are this, and only in my opinion.... I have the choice to fly
> any aircraft I choose in any class I choose as long as it is under 11
> pounds, and no larger than 2 meter ( that's also pretty loose, as I have
> never seen a scale taken out at a regular meet for 13 years or more). If
> someone wants to go out and buy a 6s or 8s capable aerobatic bird, and fly
> Sportsman, Intermesiate, Advanced, masters, or even FAI with it, go for
it.
> We all know that it will be smaller thus harder to judge, maneuvers will
be
> smaller, and etc.... But they are not required to have a 2 meter ship. I
> don't see why a rule change has to be implemented in those regards as that
> is the way it is now ??
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Matthew E Finley
>
> Q.C.I Technical Assistant
>
> 248-794-8487 mobile
>
>
>
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
>
> From: "Dr. Mike Harrison via NSRCA-discussion" <
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>
> Date: 9/7/16 2:38 PM (GMT-05:00)
>
> To: 'Scott McHarg' <scmcharg at gmail.com>, 'General pattern discussion' <
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
>
>
>
> I am hesitant to get in this discussion but I want to express that I
> believe we are in significant decline and I opine that it is because of
the
> expense, complexity and difficulty of flying and competing. The
> fundamental reason, I believe, is the cost, complexity and burden of time
> to simply use the current aircraft. I have drafted but not submitted a
> rules change to affect that issue.
>
> Fundamentally, I submit that the beginning classes be restricted to
> smaller aircraft with limitations of powerplant sizes.
>
> The existing current pilots flying in those classes have their current
> aircraft grandfathered in.
>
> These classes would be sportsman, intermediate, and advanced.
>
>
>
> If you would research the cost of aircraft w 22volt systems vs our current
> systems you will find the cost of smaller aircraft to be ? to 1/3 the cost
> of the current 2m plane.
>
>
>
> The vast majority of parents will not spend $4000-5000 for their kid to
> compete a few times in the beginning classes, nor commit a monthly expense
> of $200+ or whatever to maintain. And then there is the crash and destroy
> $1000?s in one aircraft. Even adults won?t commit to that kind of expense
> themselves.
>
>
>
> There is more to this but that is the basic underlying cause of the
> disease.
>
>
>
>
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> *From:* NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>] *On Behalf Of *Scott McHarg
> via NSRCA-discussion
> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 7, 2016 9:49 AM
> *To:* tretas513 at yahoo.com; General pattern discussion <
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
>
>
>
> Mr. Lukas and I were having an offline conversation. We were discussing
> why the new guys aren't getting into pattern. The question, essentially,
> was what's the difference between those getting into other facets vs.
> pattern. This is my opinion and will be part of my article this month in
> the K-Factor:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The answer I'm about to give you makes it sound like all is lost. I don't
> believe it is (which is why we came up with the Club sequence) but let's
> just stick to what we know and what is obvious from the assumption
> standpoint for a moment.
>
>
>
> The answer to your question can be one word only or it can be a million
> adjectives of the same word. That word is "cool". The kids coming up
want
> instant gratification, want to be cool, want notoriety, want to be thought
> of as the kid who can show off the best. You simply can't do that with
> pattern. Have you watched the fingers of these kids that fly 3D at Joe
> Nall or IRCHA? They're slamming sticks. Then, watch the planes /
> helicopters and see how much of the stick movement actually equates to
> control over the aircraft. Half of the time is spent simply recovering
> from mistakes. :)
>
>
>
> For some reason, the world has changed into a Social Media frenzy. Kids
> feel like they're missing out if we as parents threaten to take away their
> phones as punishment. Kids don't need to go outside to talk to friends
> because they can do it on the couch with their phones. They want instant
> gratification and instant knowledge. Most of the time, their friends know
> what's going on before other people at the event know because of this.
>
>
>
> Pattern is nothing like this mentality at all. Pattern takes a lot of
> practice (as you know) and patience and set up and checking to make sure
> everything is perfect. Practicing is boring unless you're doing it.
> There's no "wow factor". In my opinion, THIS is what we're battling. In
> pattern, you actually have to fly the aircraft perfectly. There's no gyro
> to make you look better (Quads, Helicopters and Drones), there's not that
> much of an adrenaline rush (until you're in front of the judges) and
> there's no screen to stare at like in FPV racing. Pattern is an art and
it
> takes that special person, the guy that wants to be artistic, to be a
> pattern pilot. Our costs are high for the best of the best which all of
> these kids want. They don't want a 1980 Super Kaos to learn the skills
> required. In almost all other facets, you can have quite good equipment,
> that is accepted by their peers, for a lot less than what it would take to
> have a "not bottom of the line" pattern plane.
>
>
> *Scott A. McHarg*
>
> VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot
>
> Texas A&M University
>
> PPL - ASEL
>
> Remote Pilot Certified Under FAA Part 107
>
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 9:40 AM, tretas513--- via NSRCA-discussion <
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>
> Most pattern fliers know why pattern is declining but won't admit it...too
> much expense, too much time invested for practice and traveling, and in
my
> opinion (and a lot of others) turnaround sucks !
>
> Flying airplanes and competing is supposed to be fun...it used to
> be...still is in SPA !!
>
> My entire SPA airplane ready to fly costs half what the engine in my 2
> meter cost and most SPA contests are one day meets...no motels !!
>
> Disclaimer: just my opinion !!
>
>
>
> *Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE Smartphone*
>
>
>
> ------ Original message------
>
> *From: *Whodaddy Whodaddy via NSRCA-discussion
>
> *Date: *Wed, Sep 7, 2016 8:40 AM
>
> *To: *Jas S;
>
> *Cc: *General pattern discussion;
>
> *Subject:*Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
>
>
>
> ?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On Sep 6, 2016, at 9:11 PM, Jas S <justanotherflyr at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Isn't that like hearing a Masters pilot say the roll on the top of a loop
> shouldn't be in Masters lol. Love ya Gary
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Whodaddy Whodaddy via NSRCA-discussion <
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>
> Sportsman isnt easy enough ????
>
>
>
> Not sure how it could get more basic ..
>
>
>
> But wat ever works lord knows we need something to attract new blood or
> bring old blood back...
>
>
>
>
>
> G
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On Sep 6, 2016, at 1:00 PM, Scott McHarg via NSRCA-discussion <
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>
> All,
>
>
>
> This is a note from Jon Carter from the NSRCA BoD. FYI!
>
>
>
> Announcing the NSRCA ?Club Class!
>
> Whether you want to call it Club class or Novice class or whatever, it?s
> OK, as long as we get more people flying pattern! What is this? Good
> question, we have heard from the membership that it would be nice for the
> NSRCA to define a non-rulebook pattern entry level event that a CD could
> offer if they so decided. This would be a non-turnaround ?old-school? type
> of pattern that any club flyer could do and yet still be challenged by. It
> will give the CD the opportunity to grab some of the ?hot dog? type sport
> flyers at his club, and maybe some old time pattern pilots, and hand them
a
> maneuver/downgrade sheet and say ?come on out to the pattern contest next
> weekend and see what you can do!? Who knows, if he can get three or four
> club flyers to come out maybe some will think, ?Hey, this is fun! I could
> learn that Sportsman pattern? Worst case it will get some more club flyers
> to participate in local events which always makes it easier to ?sell? a
> pattern contest to the local club officers! So, dust off those older
> pattern planes and those sport planes and come out and have some fun! Look
> on the NSRCA website under the Sequence tab for the maneuver list and
> descriptions.
>
> https://nsrca.us/index.php/sequences
>
>
>
> *Scott A. McHarg*
>
> VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot
>
> Texas A&M University
>
> PPL - ASEL
>
> Remote Pilot Certified Under FAA Part 107
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Jason
> http://jasonshangar.weebly.com/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
-------------- next part --------------
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a426/attachment-0001.html>
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 14:19:42 -0600
From: "Jeff and Claire" <jeffclaire at cableone.net>
To: "'Scott McHarg'" <scmcharg at gmail.com>, "'General pattern
discussion'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>, "'Dr. Mike
Harrison'"
<drmikedds at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision
Aerobatics
Message-ID: <00e401d20945$2bca7e50$835f7af0$@net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
I've got a bad case of that human nature. If I arrived at my first pattern
contest with a foam Splendor (because that's the closest "purpose built"
pattern plane I could afford at the time) and the man to beat in Sportsman
was flying a contra powered 2m something or another, I probably wouldn't be
back. Especially if my long term "stretch hope" was to fund a 62" 5s or 6s
setup for when I planning to get "serious".
Jeff Worsham
From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On
Behalf Of Scott McHarg via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2016 2:07 PM
To: Dr. Mike Harrison; General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
Mike's right. It won't work because a few can afford the 2M modern planes
and if one can have it, they all must have it.
Scott A. McHarg
VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot
Texas A&M University
PPL - ASEL
Remote Pilot Certified Under FAA Part 107
On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 3:04 PM, Dr. Mike Harrison via NSRCA-discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
You are correct but human nature gets in the way. Making a rule to limit
this fixes a lot of issues. These smaller planes fly very well. Got to
create rules that perpetuate less expense and less difficulty, just being
voluntary is not gonna work.
Mike
From: Matthew Finley [mailto:rcfin02 at msn.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 7, 2016 2:28 PM
To: Dr. Mike Harrison <drmikedds at sbcglobal.net>; General pattern discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>; 'Scott McHarg' <scmcharg at gmail.com>
Subject: RE: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
My thoughts are this, and only in my opinion.... I have the choice to fly
any aircraft I choose in any class I choose as long as it is under 11
pounds, and no larger than 2 meter ( that's also pretty loose, as I have
never seen a scale taken out at a regular meet for 13 years or more). If
someone wants to go out and buy a 6s or 8s capable aerobatic bird, and fly
Sportsman, Intermesiate, Advanced, masters, or even FAI with it, go for it.
We all know that it will be smaller thus harder to judge, maneuvers will be
smaller, and etc.... But they are not required to have a 2 meter ship. I
don't see why a rule change has to be implemented in those regards as that
is the way it is now ??
Matthew E Finley
Q.C.I Technical Assistant
248-794-8487 mobile
-------- Original message --------
From: "Dr. Mike Harrison via NSRCA-discussion"
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Date: 9/7/16 2:38 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: 'Scott McHarg' <scmcharg at gmail.com>, 'General pattern discussion'
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
I am hesitant to get in this discussion but I want to express that I believe
we are in significant decline and I opine that it is because of the expense,
complexity and difficulty of flying and competing. The fundamental reason,
I believe, is the cost, complexity and burden of time to simply use the
current aircraft. I have drafted but not submitted a rules change to affect
that issue.
Fundamentally, I submit that the beginning classes be restricted to smaller
aircraft with limitations of powerplant sizes.
The existing current pilots flying in those classes have their current
aircraft grandfathered in.
These classes would be sportsman, intermediate, and advanced.
If you would research the cost of aircraft w 22volt systems vs our current
systems you will find the cost of smaller aircraft to be ? to 1/3 the cost
of the current 2m plane.
The vast majority of parents will not spend $4000-5000 for their kid to
compete a few times in the beginning classes, nor commit a monthly expense
of $200+ or whatever to maintain. And then there is the crash and destroy
$1000?s in one aircraft. Even adults won?t commit to that kind of expense
themselves.
There is more to this but that is the basic underlying cause of the disease.
Mike
From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On
Behalf Of Scott McHarg via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Wednesday, September 7, 2016 9:49 AM
To: tretas513 at yahoo.com; General pattern discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
Mr. Lukas and I were having an offline conversation. We were discussing why
the new guys aren't getting into pattern. The question, essentially, was
what's the difference between those getting into other facets vs. pattern.
This is my opinion and will be part of my article this month in the
K-Factor:
The answer I'm about to give you makes it sound like all is lost. I don't
believe it is (which is why we came up with the Club sequence) but let's
just stick to what we know and what is obvious from the assumption
standpoint for a moment.
The answer to your question can be one word only or it can be a million
adjectives of the same word. That word is "cool". The kids coming up want
instant gratification, want to be cool, want notoriety, want to be thought
of as the kid who can show off the best. You simply can't do that with
pattern. Have you watched the fingers of these kids that fly 3D at Joe Nall
or IRCHA? They're slamming sticks. Then, watch the planes / helicopters
and see how much of the stick movement actually equates to control over the
aircraft. Half of the time is spent simply recovering from mistakes. :)
For some reason, the world has changed into a Social Media frenzy. Kids
feel like they're missing out if we as parents threaten to take away their
phones as punishment. Kids don't need to go outside to talk to friends
because they can do it on the couch with their phones. They want instant
gratification and instant knowledge. Most of the time, their friends know
what's going on before other people at the event know because of this.
Pattern is nothing like this mentality at all. Pattern takes a lot of
practice (as you know) and patience and set up and checking to make sure
everything is perfect. Practicing is boring unless you're doing it.
There's no "wow factor". In my opinion, THIS is what we're battling. In
pattern, you actually have to fly the aircraft perfectly. There's no gyro
to make you look better (Quads, Helicopters and Drones), there's not that
much of an adrenaline rush (until you're in front of the judges) and there's
no screen to stare at like in FPV racing. Pattern is an art and it takes
that special person, the guy that wants to be artistic, to be a pattern
pilot. Our costs are high for the best of the best which all of these kids
want. They don't want a 1980 Super Kaos to learn the skills required. In
almost all other facets, you can have quite good equipment, that is accepted
by their peers, for a lot less than what it would take to have a "not bottom
of the line" pattern plane.
Scott A. McHarg
VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot
Texas A&M University
PPL - ASEL
Remote Pilot Certified Under FAA Part 107
On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 9:40 AM, tretas513--- via NSRCA-discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
Most pattern fliers know why pattern is declining but won't admit it...too
much expense, too much time invested for practice and traveling, and in my
opinion (and a lot of others) turnaround sucks !
Flying airplanes and competing is supposed to be fun...it used to be...still
is in SPA !!
My entire SPA airplane ready to fly costs half what the engine in my 2 meter
cost and most SPA contests are one day meets...no motels !!
Disclaimer: just my opinion !!
Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE Smartphone
------ Original message------
From: Whodaddy Whodaddy via NSRCA-discussion
Date: Wed, Sep 7, 2016 8:40 AM
To: Jas S;
Cc: General pattern discussion;
Subject:Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
?
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 6, 2016, at 9:11 PM, Jas S <justanotherflyr at gmail.com> wrote:
Isn't that like hearing a Masters pilot say the roll on the top of a loop
shouldn't be in Masters lol. Love ya Gary
On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Whodaddy Whodaddy via NSRCA-discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
Sportsman isnt easy enough ????
Not sure how it could get more basic ..
But wat ever works lord knows we need something to attract new blood or
bring old blood back...
G
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 6, 2016, at 1:00 PM, Scott McHarg via NSRCA-discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
All,
This is a note from Jon Carter from the NSRCA BoD. FYI!
Announcing the NSRCA ?Club Class!
Whether you want to call it Club class or Novice class or whatever, it?s OK,
as long as we get more people flying pattern! What is this? Good question,
we have heard from the membership that it would be nice for the NSRCA to
define a non-rulebook pattern entry level event that a CD could offer if
they so decided. This would be a non-turnaround ?old-school? type of pattern
that any club flyer could do and yet still be challenged by. It will give
the CD the opportunity to grab some of the ?hot dog? type sport flyers at
his club, and maybe some old time pattern pilots, and hand them a
maneuver/downgrade sheet and say ?come on out to the pattern contest next
weekend and see what you can do!? Who knows, if he can get three or four
club flyers to come out maybe some will think, ?Hey, this is fun! I could
learn that Sportsman pattern? Worst case it will get some more club flyers
to participate in local events which always makes it easier to ?sell? a
pattern contest to the local club officer
s! So, dust off those older pattern planes and those sport planes and come
out and have some fun! Look on the NSRCA website under the Sequence tab for
the maneuver list and descriptions.
<https://nsrca.us/index.php/sequences> https://nsrca.us/index.php/sequences
Scott A. McHarg
VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot
Texas A&M University
PPL - ASEL
Remote Pilot Certified Under FAA Part 107
_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list
NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list
NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
--
Jason
http://jasonshangar.weebly.com/
_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list
NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
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Message: 6
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 20:39:01 +0000
From: Stuart Chale <schale1 at outlook.com>
To: Jay Gerber <jaysgerber at earthlink.net>, General pattern discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision
Aerobatics
Message-ID:
<CY4PR19MB1349B3F9D8EF5B5BFB663207FDF80 at CY4PR19MB1349.namprd19.prod.outlook.
com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Love that video. Just used portions of it for a Pattern talk at a local
club. Contrasting the flying style to current practice. If any of you have
not seen the video, take a look on You tube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jogGq_L320
The clothing worn, the hair styles :) The patterns flown. Most of the
pilots didn't seem to use throttle control back then either. I love when
the best pilots in the world stand behind their plane for takeoff and are
then lead back to stand in front of the judges.
And I've said it before and I'll say it again. Yes some of the rolling
maneuvers flying from horizon to horizon at mach 1 were really fun to fly
and watch when done well, but if anyone thinks that our ballistic pattern
planes flew better than what we fly now...................
Stuart
On 9/7/2016 2:46 PM, Jay Gerber via NSRCA-discussion wrote:
John, et al:
I made that movie of the 71 RCWC event and I remember all the ?spectators?
and young folks that were there ?marveling? at the planes and the
contestants, talking with them, guys like Ron Chidgey, Whitley, Kraft and
many others from around the world?.THIS IMPRESSED MANY YOUTH THAT WERE
THERE?.in fact one of those youth is our district 3 VP, Mark Radcliff who to
this day credits that event for launching him into RC and eventually
competition?what better an example of what seems to be missing at contests
today is PR, inviting the public, making the sport more visible and
understandable?.getting out to the community by the club members who are
putting on the event?.certainly not an easy task but just a thought from
this old retired ?turn around pattern lover??
Don?t give up?..?step up??..
Jay Gerber
From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On
Behalf Of John Fuqua via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2016 11:23 AM
To: tretas513 at yahoo.com<mailto:tretas513 at yahoo.com>; 'General pattern
discussion'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
I will address the ?turnaround sucks? thought from my perspective. Way
back when I had given up on ballistic pattern. Did not do anything for me
anymore. Then we got turnaround and I got back into it. Why and what
was the result of turnaround? First of all turnaround challenged your flying
skills and over time it has elevated the skills of all the participants.
There was a youtube video going around of the world championships in
Doylestown PA back in the 71 I think that most probably watched. Old
time planes and maneuvers that we now do in Intermediate. The first few
F3A sequenced in turnaround were about what the advanced guys are flying
today. Had we stuck with ballistic pattern do now know where we would be
today but the one thing I am confident of is that the cost would still be
high because as was pointed out by Dave an email are two ago people strive
to get the best equipment available.
Yeah people are flying SPA and having fun. But look at the ages of the
contestants and guess what?? Same as turnaround folks. Old guys
reliving their youth. Nothing wrong with that but it?s not going to
attract youth of today.
From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On
Behalf Of tretas513--- via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Wednesday, September 7, 2016 9:41 AM
To: Whodaddy Whodaddy via NSRCA-discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
Most pattern fliers know why pattern is declining but won't admit it...too
much expense, too much time invested for practice and traveling, and in my
opinion (and a lot of others) turnaround sucks !
Flying airplanes and competing is supposed to be fun...it used to be...still
is in SPA !!
My entire SPA airplane ready to fly costs half what the engine in my 2 meter
cost and most SPA contests are one day meets...no motels !!
Disclaimer: just my opinion !!
Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE Smartphone
------ Original message------
From: Whodaddy Whodaddy via NSRCA-discussion
Date: Wed, Sep 7, 2016 8:40 AM
To: Jas S;
Cc: General pattern discussion;
Subject:Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
?
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 6, 2016, at 9:11 PM, Jas S
<justanotherflyr at gmail.com<mailto:justanotherflyr at gmail.com>> wrote:
Isn't that like hearing a Masters pilot say the roll on the top of a loop
shouldn't be in Masters lol. Love ya Gary
On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Whodaddy Whodaddy via NSRCA-discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
wrote:
Sportsman isnt easy enough ????
Not sure how it could get more basic ..
But wat ever works lord knows we need something to attract new blood or
bring old blood back...
G
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 6, 2016, at 1:00 PM, Scott McHarg via NSRCA-discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
wrote:
All,
This is a note from Jon Carter from the NSRCA BoD. FYI!
Announcing the NSRCA ?Club Class!
Whether you want to call it Club class or Novice class or whatever, it?s OK,
as long as we get more people flying pattern! What is this? Good question,
we have heard from the membership that it would be nice for the NSRCA to
define a non-rulebook pattern entry level event that a CD could offer if
they so decided. This would be a non-turnaround ?old-school? type of pattern
that any club flyer could do and yet still be challenged by. It will give
the CD the opportunity to grab some of the ?hot dog? type sport flyers at
his club, and maybe some old time pattern pilots, and hand them a
maneuver/downgrade sheet and say ?come on out to the pattern contest next
weekend and see what you can do!? Who knows, if he can get three or four
club flyers to come out maybe some will think, ?Hey, this is fun! I could
learn that Sportsman pattern? Worst case it will get some more club flyers
to participate in local events which always makes it easier to ?sell? a
pattern contest to the local club officer
s! So, dust off those older pattern planes and those sport planes and come
out and have some fun! Look on the NSRCA website under the Sequence tab for
the maneuver list and descriptions.
https://nsrca.us/index.php/sequences
Scott A. McHarg
VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot
Texas A&M University
PPL - ASEL
Remote Pilot Certified Under FAA Part 107
_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list
NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list
NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
--
Jason
http://jasonshangar.weebly.com/
_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list
NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
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------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 16:50:21 -0400
From: "towerguy102 at aol.com" <towerguy102 at aol.com>
To: jaysgerber at earthlink.net, nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision
Aerobatics
Message-ID: <157066a703d-4bb9-14fa5 at webprd-m105.mail.aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
10++ Jay
-----Original Message-----
From: Jay Gerber via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
To: 'John Fuqua' <johnfuqua at embarqmail.com>; 'General pattern discussion'
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Wed, Sep 7, 2016 2:46 pm
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
John, et al:?
I made that movie of the 71 RCWC event and I remember all the ?spectators?
and young folks that were there ?marveling? at the planes and the
contestants, talking with them, guys like Ron Chidgey, Whitley, Kraft and
many others from around the world?.THIS IMPRESSED MANY YOUTH THAT WERE
THERE?.in fact one of those youth is our district 3 VP, Mark Radcliff who to
this day credits that event for launching him into RC and eventually
competition?what better an example of what seems to be missing at contests
today is PR, inviting the public, making the sport more visible and
understandable?.getting out to the community by the club members who are
putting on the event?.certainly not an easy task but just a thought from
this old retired ?turn around pattern lover??
Don?t give up?..?step up??..
Jay Gerber
?
From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On
Behalf Of John Fuqua via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2016 11:23 AM
To: tretas513 at yahoo.com; 'General pattern discussion'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
?
I will address the ?turnaround sucks? thought from my perspective.??? Way
back when I had given up on ballistic pattern.??? Did not do anything for me
anymore.??? Then we got turnaround and I got back into it.???? Why and what
was the result of turnaround? First of all turnaround challenged your flying
skills and over time it has elevated the skills of all the participants.???
There was a youtube video going around of the world championships in
Doylestown PA back in the 71 I think that most probably watched.???? Old
time planes and maneuvers that we now do in Intermediate.???? The first few
F3A sequenced in turnaround were about what the advanced guys are flying
today.??? Had we stuck with ballistic pattern do now know where we would be
today but the one thing I am confident of is that the cost would still be
high because as was pointed out? by Dave an email are two ago people strive
to get the best equipment available.??
?
Yeah people are flying SPA and having fun.?? But look at the ages of the
contestants and guess what?????? Same as turnaround folks.??? ?Old guys
reliving their youth.??? ?Nothing wrong with that but it?s not going to
attract youth of today.
?
From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On
Behalf Of tretas513--- via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Wednesday, September 7, 2016 9:41 AM
To: Whodaddy Whodaddy via NSRCA-discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
?
Most pattern fliers know why pattern is declining but won't admit it...too
much expense, ?too much time invested for practice and traveling, and in my
opinion (and a lot of others) turnaround sucks !
Flying airplanes and competing is supposed to be fun...it used to be...still
is in SPA !!
My entire SPA airplane ready to fly costs half what the engine in my 2 meter
cost and most SPA contests are one day meets...no motels !!?
Disclaimer: just my opinion !!
?
Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE Smartphone
?
------ Original message------
From: Whodaddy Whodaddy via NSRCA-discussion
Date: Wed, Sep 7, 2016 8:40 AM
To: Jas S;
Cc: General pattern discussion;
Subject:Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
?
?
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 6, 2016, at 9:11 PM, Jas S <justanotherflyr at gmail.com> wrote:
Isn't that like hearing a Masters pilot say the roll on the top of a loop
shouldn't be in Masters lol. Love ya Gary
?
On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Whodaddy Whodaddy via NSRCA-discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
Sportsman isnt easy enough ????
?
Not sure how it could get more basic ..?
?
But wat ever works lord knows we need something to attract new blood or
bring old blood back...?
?
?
G
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 6, 2016, at 1:00 PM, Scott McHarg via NSRCA-discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
All,
?
This is a note from Jon Carter from the NSRCA BoD.? FYI!
?
Announcing the NSRCA ?Club Class!
Whether you want to call it Club class or Novice class or whatever, it?s OK,
as long as we get more people flying pattern! What is this? Good question,
we have heard from the membership that it would be nice for the NSRCA to
define a non-rulebook pattern entry level event that a CD could offer if
they so decided. This would be a non-turnaround ?old-school? type of pattern
that any club flyer could do and yet still be challenged by. It will give
the CD the opportunity to grab some of the ?hot dog? type sport flyers at
his club, and maybe some old time pattern pilots, and hand them a
maneuver/downgrade sheet and say ?come on out to the pattern contest next
weekend and see what you can do!? Who knows, if he can get three or four
club flyers to come out maybe some will think, ?Hey, this is fun! I could
learn that Sportsman pattern? Worst case it will get some more club flyers
to participate in local events which always makes it easier to ?sell? a
pattern contest to the local club officer
s! So, dust off those older pattern planes and those sport planes and come
out and have some fun! Look on the NSRCA website under the Sequence tab for
the maneuver list and descriptions.
https://nsrca.us/index.php/sequences
?
Scott A. McHarg
VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot
Texas A&M University
PPL - ASEL
Remote Pilot Certified Under FAA Part 107
_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list
NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list
NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
?
--
Jason
http://jasonshangar.weebly.com/
_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list
NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
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------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 20:51:29 +0000
From: "Atwood, Mark" <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>
To: Scott McHarg <scmcharg at gmail.com>, General pattern discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision
Aerobatics
Message-ID: <99AA8FCF-2A13-4B8E-91FC-7D9588B5C70E at paragon-inc.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
I?d like to present a slightly different take (though not dispelling what
Mike or others are saying) but it?s specific to this new class and why I
think it?s important, AND how to sell it.
IN MY OPINION? let me start with that?
IN my opinion, pattern is all about competition, and in general, a very
small percentage of society, in ANY hobby, is focused on competing. Those
that are, get the bug. We have created MANY barriers for the competitive
person to try pattern. Cost, Commitment, Difficulty, etc, we all know them.
The one this Club Class is trying to address, is getting your local sport
guy to experience the contest environment and see if they like it. Only a
few will?and those that do, will do what they need to do to participate.
But we?re not even getting them that far.
This allows them to grab a group of their hot shot, fun fly buddies, bring
planes that already have, fly maneuvers they already know how to do, and get
bragging rights amongst their peers as to who was better.
There are MANY golfers out there? and most won?t sign up for a serious
tournament. Too tense, too expensive, too many better golfers that will
make them feel foolish?etc. But they?ll all grab their golf buddies and go
play a scramble and try to win. And just like pattern? if you actually
DO sign up for a tournament, you?ll find it?s NOT tense, half the players
suck more than you do, and it?s a ton of fun.
So this club class, if properly promoted? is a way to get your local club to
participate. It?s no good to get one guy? you need to get a handful under
the premise that they?re competing against one another. No pressure. No
out of town semi pro sportsman on the tour to embarrass them. Club class is
really for local flyers only.
The goal is really two fold in my mind. One, to get local participation.
It?s added help for the CD, and added benefit for the club hosting the
event. Two, they might like it. IF they have that competitive bug, they?ll
get bit. They?ll see how a contest flows. See the caliber of the Novice
(sorry?sportsman) pilots and realize, ?hey?I can do that?. And maybe will
give it a try. At THAT point? they?ll learn the simple turnaround that
Sportsman has. But until then, this needs to be uber simple, and heavily
promoted.
My $0.02
-Mark
MARK ATWOOD
o. (440) 229-2502
c. (216) 316-2489
e. atwoodm at paragon-inc.com<mailto:atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>
Paragon Consulting, Inc.
5900 Landerbrook Drive, Suite 205, Cleveland Ohio, 44124
www.paragon-inc.com<http://www.paragon-inc.com/>
<http://www.paragon-inc.com/>
Powering The Digital Experience
On Sep 7, 2016, at 4:07 PM, Scott McHarg via NSRCA-discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
wrote:
Mike's right. It won't work because a few can afford the 2M modern planes
and if one can have it, they all must have it.
Scott A. McHarg
VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot
Texas A&M University
PPL - ASEL
Remote Pilot Certified Under FAA Part 107
On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 3:04 PM, Dr. Mike Harrison via NSRCA-discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
wrote:
You are correct but human nature gets in the way. Making a rule to limit
this fixes a lot of issues. These smaller planes fly very well. Got to
create rules that perpetuate less expense and less difficulty, just being
voluntary is not gonna work.
Mike
From: Matthew Finley [mailto:rcfin02 at msn.com<mailto:rcfin02 at msn.com>]
Sent: Wednesday, September 7, 2016 2:28 PM
To: Dr. Mike Harrison
<drmikedds at sbcglobal.net<mailto:drmikedds at sbcglobal.net>>; General pattern
discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>;
'Scott McHarg' <scmcharg at gmail.com<mailto:scmcharg at gmail.com>>
Subject: RE: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
My thoughts are this, and only in my opinion.... I have the choice to fly
any aircraft I choose in any class I choose as long as it is under 11
pounds, and no larger than 2 meter ( that's also pretty loose, as I have
never seen a scale taken out at a regular meet for 13 years or more). If
someone wants to go out and buy a 6s or 8s capable aerobatic bird, and fly
Sportsman, Intermesiate, Advanced, masters, or even FAI with it, go for it.
We all know that it will be smaller thus harder to judge, maneuvers will be
smaller, and etc.... But they are not required to have a 2 meter ship. I
don't see why a rule change has to be implemented in those regards as that
is the way it is now ??
Matthew E Finley
Q.C.I Technical Assistant
248-794-8487<tel:248-794-8487> mobile
-------- Original message --------
From: "Dr. Mike Harrison via NSRCA-discussion"
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
Date: 9/7/16 2:38 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: 'Scott McHarg' <scmcharg at gmail.com<mailto:scmcharg at gmail.com>>, 'General
pattern discussion'
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
I am hesitant to get in this discussion but I want to express that I believe
we are in significant decline and I opine that it is because of the expense,
complexity and difficulty of flying and competing. The fundamental reason,
I believe, is the cost, complexity and burden of time to simply use the
current aircraft. I have drafted but not submitted a rules change to affect
that issue.
Fundamentally, I submit that the beginning classes be restricted to smaller
aircraft with limitations of powerplant sizes.
The existing current pilots flying in those classes have their current
aircraft grandfathered in.
These classes would be sportsman, intermediate, and advanced.
If you would research the cost of aircraft w 22volt systems vs our current
systems you will find the cost of smaller aircraft to be ? to 1/3 the cost
of the current 2m plane.
The vast majority of parents will not spend $4000-5000 for their kid to
compete a few times in the beginning classes, nor commit a monthly expense
of $200+ or whatever to maintain. And then there is the crash and destroy
$1000?s in one aircraft. Even adults won?t commit to that kind of expense
themselves.
There is more to this but that is the basic underlying cause of the disease.
Mike
From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On
Behalf Of Scott McHarg via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Wednesday, September 7, 2016 9:49 AM
To: tretas513 at yahoo.com<mailto:tretas513 at yahoo.com>; General pattern
discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
Mr. Lukas and I were having an offline conversation. We were discussing why
the new guys aren't getting into pattern. The question, essentially, was
what's the difference between those getting into other facets vs. pattern.
This is my opinion and will be part of my article this month in the
K-Factor:
The answer I'm about to give you makes it sound like all is lost. I don't
believe it is (which is why we came up with the Club sequence) but let's
just stick to what we know and what is obvious from the assumption
standpoint for a moment.
The answer to your question can be one word only or it can be a million
adjectives of the same word. That word is "cool". The kids coming up want
instant gratification, want to be cool, want notoriety, want to be thought
of as the kid who can show off the best. You simply can't do that with
pattern. Have you watched the fingers of these kids that fly 3D at Joe Nall
or IRCHA? They're slamming sticks. Then, watch the planes / helicopters
and see how much of the stick movement actually equates to control over the
aircraft. Half of the time is spent simply recovering from mistakes. :)
For some reason, the world has changed into a Social Media frenzy. Kids
feel like they're missing out if we as parents threaten to take away their
phones as punishment. Kids don't need to go outside to talk to friends
because they can do it on the couch with their phones. They want instant
gratification and instant knowledge. Most of the time, their friends know
what's going on before other people at the event know because of this.
Pattern is nothing like this mentality at all. Pattern takes a lot of
practice (as you know) and patience and set up and checking to make sure
everything is perfect. Practicing is boring unless you're doing it.
There's no "wow factor". In my opinion, THIS is what we're battling. In
pattern, you actually have to fly the aircraft perfectly. There's no gyro
to make you look better (Quads, Helicopters and Drones), there's not that
much of an adrenaline rush (until you're in front of the judges) and there's
no screen to stare at like in FPV racing. Pattern is an art and it takes
that special person, the guy that wants to be artistic, to be a pattern
pilot. Our costs are high for the best of the best which all of these kids
want. They don't want a 1980 Super Kaos to learn the skills required. In
almost all other facets, you can have quite good equipment, that is accepted
by their peers, for a lot less than what it would take to have a "not bottom
of the line" pattern plane.
Scott A. McHarg
VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot
Texas A&M University
PPL - ASEL
Remote Pilot Certified Under FAA Part 107
On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 9:40 AM, tretas513--- via NSRCA-discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
wrote:
Most pattern fliers know why pattern is declining but won't admit it...too
much expense, too much time invested for practice and traveling, and in my
opinion (and a lot of others) turnaround sucks !
Flying airplanes and competing is supposed to be fun...it used to be...still
is in SPA !!
My entire SPA airplane ready to fly costs half what the engine in my 2 meter
cost and most SPA contests are one day meets...no motels !!
Disclaimer: just my opinion !!
Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE Smartphone
------ Original message------
From: Whodaddy Whodaddy via NSRCA-discussion
Date: Wed, Sep 7, 2016 8:40 AM
To: Jas S;
Cc: General pattern discussion;
Subject:Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
?
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 6, 2016, at 9:11 PM, Jas S
<justanotherflyr at gmail.com<mailto:justanotherflyr at gmail.com>> wrote:
Isn't that like hearing a Masters pilot say the roll on the top of a loop
shouldn't be in Masters lol. Love ya Gary
On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Whodaddy Whodaddy via NSRCA-discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
wrote:
Sportsman isnt easy enough ????
Not sure how it could get more basic ..
But wat ever works lord knows we need something to attract new blood or
bring old blood back...
G
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 6, 2016, at 1:00 PM, Scott McHarg via NSRCA-discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
wrote:
All,
This is a note from Jon Carter from the NSRCA BoD. FYI!
Announcing the NSRCA ?Club Class!
Whether you want to call it Club class or Novice class or whatever, it?s OK,
as long as we get more people flying pattern! What is this? Good question,
we have heard from the membership that it would be nice for the NSRCA to
define a non-rulebook pattern entry level event that a CD could offer if
they so decided. This would be a non-turnaround ?old-school? type of pattern
that any club flyer could do and yet still be challenged by. It will give
the CD the opportunity to grab some of the ?hot dog? type sport flyers at
his club, and maybe some old time pattern pilots, and hand them a
maneuver/downgrade sheet and say ?come on out to the pattern contest next
weekend and see what you can do!? Who knows, if he can get three or four
club flyers to come out maybe some will think, ?Hey, this is fun! I could
learn that Sportsman pattern? Worst case it will get some more club flyers
to participate in local events which always makes it easier to ?sell? a
pattern contest to the local club officer
s! So, dust off those older pattern planes and those sport planes and come
out and have some fun! Look on the NSRCA website under the Sequence tab for
the maneuver list and descriptions.
https://nsrca.us/index.php/sequences
Scott A. McHarg
VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot
Texas A&M University
PPL - ASEL
Remote Pilot Certified Under FAA Part 107
_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list
NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list
NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
--
Jason
http://jasonshangar.weebly.com/
_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list
NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list
NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list
NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
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------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 15:51:57 -0500
From: "Dr. Mike Harrison" <drmikedds at sbcglobal.net>
To: "'Tom Simes'" <simestd at netexpress.com>, "'General pattern
discussion'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision
Aerobatics
Message-ID: <00ac01d20949$acfb7930$06f26b90$@sbcglobal.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
I respect these suggestions but they are akin to treating a broken arm with
aspirin and saying you'll be ok. There has to be a significant, expedient,
profound change in the rules, encouragement, volunteerism, etc. won't do it.
It has to be a change that is concrete and perpetual(lasting). Otherwise,
just take an aspirin and go to bed.
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On
Behalf Of Tom Simes via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Wednesday, September 7, 2016 3:15 PM
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
What about offering some kind of reasoned and documented scoring bonus in
the feeder classes for using smaller aircraft?
On 09/07/16 12:07, Scott McHarg via NSRCA-discussion wrote:
> Mike's right. It won't work because a few can afford the 2M modern
> planes and if one can have it, they all must have it.
>
> *Scott A. McHarg*
> VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot
> Texas A&M University
> PPL - ASEL
> Remote Pilot Certified Under FAA Part 107
>
> On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 3:04 PM, Dr. Mike Harrison via NSRCA-discussion
> < nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>
>> You are correct but human nature gets in the way. Making a rule to
>> limit this fixes a lot of issues. These smaller planes fly very well.
>> Got to create rules that perpetuate less expense and less difficulty,
>> just being voluntary is not gonna work.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Matthew Finley [mailto:rcfin02 at msn.com]
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 7, 2016 2:28 PM
>> *To:* Dr. Mike Harrison <drmikedds at sbcglobal.net>; General pattern
>> discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>; 'Scott McHarg' <
>> scmcharg at gmail.com>
>> *Subject:* RE: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision
>> Aerobatics
>>
>>
>>
>> My thoughts are this, and only in my opinion.... I have the choice to
>> fly any aircraft I choose in any class I choose as long as it is
>> under 11 pounds, and no larger than 2 meter ( that's also pretty
>> loose, as I have never seen a scale taken out at a regular meet for
>> 13 years or more). If someone wants to go out and buy a 6s or 8s
>> capable aerobatic bird, and fly Sportsman, Intermesiate, Advanced,
masters, or even FAI with it, go for it.
>> We all know that it will be smaller thus harder to judge, maneuvers
>> will be smaller, and etc.... But they are not required to have a 2
>> meter ship. I don't see why a rule change has to be implemented in
>> those regards as that is the way it is now ??
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Matthew E Finley
>>
>> Q.C.I Technical Assistant
>>
>> 248-794-8487 mobile
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -------- Original message --------
>>
>> From: "Dr. Mike Harrison via NSRCA-discussion" <
>> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>
>> Date: 9/7/16 2:38 PM (GMT-05:00)
>>
>> To: 'Scott McHarg' <scmcharg at gmail.com>, 'General pattern discussion'
>> < nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision
>> Aerobatics
>>
>>
>>
>> I am hesitant to get in this discussion but I want to express that I
>> believe we are in significant decline and I opine that it is because
>> of the expense, complexity and difficulty of flying and competing.
>> The fundamental reason, I believe, is the cost, complexity and burden
>> of time to simply use the current aircraft. I have drafted but not
>> submitted a rules change to affect that issue.
>>
>> Fundamentally, I submit that the beginning classes be restricted to
>> smaller aircraft with limitations of powerplant sizes.
>>
>> The existing current pilots flying in those classes have their
>> current aircraft grandfathered in.
>>
>> These classes would be sportsman, intermediate, and advanced.
>>
>>
>>
>> If you would research the cost of aircraft w 22volt systems vs our
>> current systems you will find the cost of smaller aircraft to be ? to
>> 1/3 the cost of the current 2m plane.
>>
>>
>>
>> The vast majority of parents will not spend $4000-5000 for their kid
>> to compete a few times in the beginning classes, nor commit a monthly
>> expense of $200+ or whatever to maintain. And then there is the crash
>> and destroy $1000?s in one aircraft. Even adults won?t commit to
>> that kind of expense themselves.
>>
>>
>>
>> There is more to this but that is the basic underlying cause of the
>> disease.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* NSRCA-discussion
>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>> <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>] *On Behalf Of *Scott
>> McHarg via NSRCA-discussion
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 7, 2016 9:49 AM
>> *To:* tretas513 at yahoo.com; General pattern discussion <
>> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision
>> Aerobatics
>>
>>
>>
>> Mr. Lukas and I were having an offline conversation. We were
>> discussing why the new guys aren't getting into pattern. The
>> question, essentially, was what's the difference between those getting
into other facets vs.
>> pattern. This is my opinion and will be part of my article this
>> month in the K-Factor:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The answer I'm about to give you makes it sound like all is lost. I
>> don't believe it is (which is why we came up with the Club sequence)
>> but let's just stick to what we know and what is obvious from the
>> assumption standpoint for a moment.
>>
>>
>>
>> The answer to your question can be one word only or it can be a
>> million adjectives of the same word. That word is "cool". The kids
>> coming up want instant gratification, want to be cool, want
>> notoriety, want to be thought of as the kid who can show off the
>> best. You simply can't do that with pattern. Have you watched the
>> fingers of these kids that fly 3D at Joe Nall or IRCHA? They're
>> slamming sticks. Then, watch the planes / helicopters and see how
>> much of the stick movement actually equates to control over the
>> aircraft. Half of the time is spent simply recovering from mistakes.
>> :)
>>
>>
>>
>> For some reason, the world has changed into a Social Media frenzy.
>> Kids feel like they're missing out if we as parents threaten to take
>> away their phones as punishment. Kids don't need to go outside to
>> talk to friends because they can do it on the couch with their
>> phones. They want instant gratification and instant knowledge. Most
>> of the time, their friends know what's going on before other people at
the event know because of this.
>>
>>
>>
>> Pattern is nothing like this mentality at all. Pattern takes a lot
>> of practice (as you know) and patience and set up and checking to
>> make sure everything is perfect. Practicing is boring unless you're
doing it.
>> There's no "wow factor". In my opinion, THIS is what we're battling.
>> In pattern, you actually have to fly the aircraft perfectly. There's
>> no gyro to make you look better (Quads, Helicopters and Drones),
>> there's not that much of an adrenaline rush (until you're in front of
>> the judges) and there's no screen to stare at like in FPV racing.
>> Pattern is an art and it takes that special person, the guy that
>> wants to be artistic, to be a pattern pilot. Our costs are high for
>> the best of the best which all of these kids want. They don't want a
>> 1980 Super Kaos to learn the skills required. In almost all other
>> facets, you can have quite good equipment, that is accepted by their
>> peers, for a lot less than what it would take to have a "not bottom of
the line" pattern plane.
>>
>>
>> *Scott A. McHarg*
>>
>> VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot
>>
>> Texas A&M University
>>
>> PPL - ASEL
>>
>> Remote Pilot Certified Under FAA Part 107
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 9:40 AM, tretas513--- via NSRCA-discussion <
>> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>>
>> Most pattern fliers know why pattern is declining but won't admit
>> it...too much expense, too much time invested for practice and
>> traveling, and in my opinion (and a lot of others) turnaround sucks !
>>
>> Flying airplanes and competing is supposed to be fun...it used to
>> be...still is in SPA !!
>>
>> My entire SPA airplane ready to fly costs half what the engine in my
>> 2 meter cost and most SPA contests are one day meets...no motels !!
>>
>> Disclaimer: just my opinion !!
>>
>>
>>
>> *Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE Smartphone*
>>
>>
>>
>> ------ Original message------
>>
>> *From: *Whodaddy Whodaddy via NSRCA-discussion
>>
>> *Date: *Wed, Sep 7, 2016 8:40 AM
>>
>> *To: *Jas S;
>>
>> *Cc: *General pattern discussion;
>>
>> *Subject:*Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision
>> Aerobatics
>>
>>
>>
>> ?
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
>> On Sep 6, 2016, at 9:11 PM, Jas S <justanotherflyr at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Isn't that like hearing a Masters pilot say the roll on the top of a
>> loop shouldn't be in Masters lol. Love ya Gary
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Whodaddy Whodaddy via
>> NSRCA-discussion < nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>>
>> Sportsman isnt easy enough ????
>>
>>
>>
>> Not sure how it could get more basic ..
>>
>>
>>
>> But wat ever works lord knows we need something to attract new blood
>> or bring old blood back...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> G
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
>> On Sep 6, 2016, at 1:00 PM, Scott McHarg via NSRCA-discussion <
>> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>>
>> All,
>>
>>
>>
>> This is a note from Jon Carter from the NSRCA BoD. FYI!
>>
>>
>>
>> Announcing the NSRCA ?Club Class!
>>
>> Whether you want to call it Club class or Novice class or whatever,
>> it?s OK, as long as we get more people flying pattern! What is this?
>> Good question, we have heard from the membership that it would be
>> nice for the NSRCA to define a non-rulebook pattern entry level event
>> that a CD could offer if they so decided. This would be a
>> non-turnaround ?old-school? type of pattern that any club flyer could
>> do and yet still be challenged by. It will give the CD the
>> opportunity to grab some of the ?hot dog? type sport flyers at his
>> club, and maybe some old time pattern pilots, and hand them a
>> maneuver/downgrade sheet and say ?come on out to the pattern contest
>> next weekend and see what you can do!? Who knows, if he can get three
>> or four club flyers to come out maybe some will think, ?Hey, this is
>> fun! I could learn that Sportsman pattern? Worst case it will get
>> some more club flyers to participate in local events which always
>> makes it easier to ?sell? a pattern contest to the local club
>> officers! So, dust off those older pattern planes and those sport
>> planes and come out and have some fun! Look on the NSRCA website under
the Sequence tab for the maneuver list and descriptions.
>>
>> https://nsrca.us/index.php/sequences
>>
>>
>>
>> *Scott A. McHarg*
>>
>> VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot
>>
>> Texas A&M University
>>
>> PPL - ASEL
>>
>> Remote Pilot Certified Under FAA Part 107
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Jason
>> http://jasonshangar.weebly.com/
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
--
Tom
======================================================================
"Z80 system stack overflow. Shut 'er down Scotty, she's
sucking mud again!" - Error message on XENIX v3.0
Tom Simes simestd at netexpress.com
======================================================================
_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list
NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 15:52:52 -0500
From: "Dr. Mike Harrison" <drmikedds at sbcglobal.net>
To: <towerguy102 at aol.com>, "'General pattern discussion'"
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision
Aerobatics
Message-ID: <00af01d20949$cde49d20$69add760$@sbcglobal.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Known Jay a long time, just a great giver to the sport. Great guy.
Mike
From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On
Behalf Of towerguy102--- via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Wednesday, September 7, 2016 3:50 PM
To: jaysgerber at earthlink.net; nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
10++ Jay
-----Original Message-----
From: Jay Gerber via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> >
To: 'John Fuqua' <johnfuqua at embarqmail.com <mailto:johnfuqua at embarqmail.com>
>; 'General pattern discussion' <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> >
Sent: Wed, Sep 7, 2016 2:46 pm
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
John, et al:
I made that movie of the 71 RCWC event and I remember all the ?spectators?
and young folks that were there ?marveling? at the planes and the
contestants, talking with them, guys like Ron Chidgey, Whitley, Kraft and
many others from around the world?.THIS IMPRESSED MANY YOUTH THAT WERE
THERE?.in fact one of those youth is our district 3 VP, Mark Radcliff who to
this day credits that event for launching him into RC and eventually
competition?what better an example of what seems to be missing at contests
today is PR, inviting the public, making the sport more visible and
understandable?.getting out to the community by the club members who are
putting on the event?.certainly not an easy task but just a thought from
this old retired ?turn around pattern lover??
Don?t give up?..?step up??..
Jay Gerber
From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org?> ] On Behalf Of John Fuqua
via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2016 11:23 AM
To: tretas513 at yahoo.com <mailto:tretas513 at yahoo.com> ; 'General pattern
discussion'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
I will address the ?turnaround sucks? thought from my perspective. Way
back when I had given up on ballistic pattern. Did not do anything for me
anymore. Then we got turnaround and I got back into it. Why and what
was the result of turnaround? First of all turnaround challenged your flying
skills and over time it has elevated the skills of all the participants.
There was a youtube video going around of the world championships in
Doylestown PA back in the 71 I think that most probably watched. Old
time planes and maneuvers that we now do in Intermediate. The first few
F3A sequenced in turnaround were about what the advanced guys are flying
today. Had we stuck with ballistic pattern do now know where we would be
today but the one thing I am confident of is that the cost would still be
high because as was pointed out by Dave an email are two ago people strive
to get the best equipment available.
Yeah people are flying SPA and having fun. But look at the ages of the
contestants and guess what?? Same as turnaround folks. Old guys
reliving their youth. Nothing wrong with that but it?s not going to
attract youth of today.
From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On
Behalf Of tretas513--- via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Wednesday, September 7, 2016 9:41 AM
To: Whodaddy Whodaddy via NSRCA-discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
Most pattern fliers know why pattern is declining but won't admit it...too
much expense, too much time invested for practice and traveling, and in my
opinion (and a lot of others) turnaround sucks !
Flying airplanes and competing is supposed to be fun...it used to be...still
is in SPA !!
My entire SPA airplane ready to fly costs half what the engine in my 2 meter
cost and most SPA contests are one day meets...no motels !!
Disclaimer: just my opinion !!
Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE Smartphone
------ Original message------
From: Whodaddy Whodaddy via NSRCA-discussion
Date: Wed, Sep 7, 2016 8:40 AM
To: Jas S;
Cc: General pattern discussion;
Subject:Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
?
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 6, 2016, at 9:11 PM, Jas S <justanotherflyr at gmail.com
<mailto:justanotherflyr at gmail.com> > wrote:
Isn't that like hearing a Masters pilot say the roll on the top of a loop
shouldn't be in Masters lol. Love ya Gary
On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Whodaddy Whodaddy via NSRCA-discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> wrote:
Sportsman isnt easy enough ????
Not sure how it could get more basic ..
But wat ever works lord knows we need something to attract new blood or
bring old blood back...
G
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 6, 2016, at 1:00 PM, Scott McHarg via NSRCA-discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> wrote:
All,
This is a note from Jon Carter from the NSRCA BoD. FYI!
Announcing the NSRCA ?Club Class!
Whether you want to call it Club class or Novice class or whatever, it?s OK,
as long as we get more people flying pattern! What is this? Good question,
we have heard from the membership that it would be nice for the NSRCA to
define a non-rulebook pattern entry level event that a CD could offer if
they so decided. This would be a non-turnaround ?old-school? type of pattern
that any club flyer could do and yet still be challenged by. It will give
the CD the opportunity to grab some of the ?hot dog? type sport flyers at
his club, and maybe some old time pattern pilots, and hand them a
maneuver/downgrade sheet and say ?come on out to the pattern contest next
weekend and see what you can do!? Who knows, if he can get three or four
club flyers to come out maybe some will think, ?Hey, this is fun! I could
learn that Sportsman pattern? Worst case it will get some more club flyers
to participate in local events which always makes it easier to ?sell? a
pattern contest to the local club officer
s! So, dust off those older pattern planes and those sport planes and come
out and have some fun! Look on the NSRCA website under the Sequence tab for
the maneuver list and descriptions.
https://nsrca.us/index.php/sequences
Scott A. McHarg
VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot
Texas A&M University
PPL - ASEL
Remote Pilot Certified Under FAA Part 107
_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list
NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list
NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
--
Jason
http://jasonshangar.weebly.com/
_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list
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http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
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Message: 11
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 20:54:21 +0000
From: Patternpilot One <patternpilot1 at hotmail.com>
To: "Atwood, Mark" <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>, General pattern
discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision
Aerobatics
Message-ID:
<SN1PR10MB0766D5EAF8AFC0D18C860DEDF8F80 at SN1PR10MB0766.namprd10.prod.outlook.
com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Mark,
Well said... spot on !
Sa.
Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: "Atwood, Mark via NSRCA-discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Date: 9/7/16 4:51 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: Scott McHarg <scmcharg at gmail.com>, General pattern discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
I?d like to present a slightly different take (though not dispelling what
Mike or others are saying) but it?s specific to this new class and why I
think it?s important, AND how to sell it.
IN MY OPINION? let me start with that?
IN my opinion, pattern is all about competition, and in general, a very
small percentage of society, in ANY hobby, is focused on competing. Those
that are, get the bug. We have created MANY barriers for the competitive
person to try pattern. Cost, Commitment, Difficulty, etc, we all know them.
The one this Club Class is trying to address, is getting your local sport
guy to experience the contest environment and see if they like it. Only a
few will?and those that do, will do what they need to do to participate.
But we?re not even getting them that far.
This allows them to grab a group of their hot shot, fun fly buddies, bring
planes that already have, fly maneuvers they already know how to do, and get
bragging rights amongst their peers as to who was better.
There are MANY golfers out there? and most won?t sign up for a serious
tournament. Too tense, too expensive, too many better golfers that will
make them feel foolish?etc. But they?ll all grab their golf buddies and go
play a scramble and try to win. And just like pattern? if you actually
DO sign up for a tournament, you?ll find it?s NOT tense, half the players
suck more than you do, and it?s a ton of fun.
So this club class, if properly promoted? is a way to get your local club to
participate. It?s no good to get one guy? you need to get a handful under
the premise that they?re competing against one another. No pressure. No
out of town semi pro sportsman on the tour to embarrass them. Club class is
really for local flyers only.
The goal is really two fold in my mind. One, to get local participation.
It?s added help for the CD, and added benefit for the club hosting the
event. Two, they might like it. IF they have that competitive bug, they?ll
get bit. They?ll see how a contest flows. See the caliber of the Novice
(sorry?sportsman) pilots and realize, ?hey?I can do that?. And maybe will
give it a try. At THAT point? they?ll learn the simple turnaround that
Sportsman has. But until then, this needs to be uber simple, and heavily
promoted.
My $0.02
-Mark
MARK ATWOOD
o. (440) 229-2502
c. (216) 316-2489
e. atwoodm at paragon-inc.com<mailto:atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>
Paragon Consulting, Inc.
5900 Landerbrook Drive, Suite 205, Cleveland Ohio, 44124
www.paragon-inc.com<http://www.paragon-inc.com/>
<http://www.paragon-inc.com/>
Powering The Digital Experience
On Sep 7, 2016, at 4:07 PM, Scott McHarg via NSRCA-discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
wrote:
Mike's right. It won't work because a few can afford the 2M modern planes
and if one can have it, they all must have it.
Scott A. McHarg
VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot
Texas A&M University
PPL - ASEL
Remote Pilot Certified Under FAA Part 107
On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 3:04 PM, Dr. Mike Harrison via NSRCA-discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
wrote:
You are correct but human nature gets in the way. Making a rule to limit
this fixes a lot of issues. These smaller planes fly very well. Got to
create rules that perpetuate less expense and less difficulty, just being
voluntary is not gonna work.
Mike
From: Matthew Finley [mailto:rcfin02 at msn.com<mailto:rcfin02 at msn.com>]
Sent: Wednesday, September 7, 2016 2:28 PM
To: Dr. Mike Harrison
<drmikedds at sbcglobal.net<mailto:drmikedds at sbcglobal.net>>; General pattern
discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>;
'Scott McHarg' <scmcharg at gmail.com<mailto:scmcharg at gmail.com>>
Subject: RE: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
My thoughts are this, and only in my opinion.... I have the choice to fly
any aircraft I choose in any class I choose as long as it is under 11
pounds, and no larger than 2 meter ( that's also pretty loose, as I have
never seen a scale taken out at a regular meet for 13 years or more). If
someone wants to go out and buy a 6s or 8s capable aerobatic bird, and fly
Sportsman, Intermesiate, Advanced, masters, or even FAI with it, go for it.
We all know that it will be smaller thus harder to judge, maneuvers will be
smaller, and etc.... But they are not required to have a 2 meter ship. I
don't see why a rule change has to be implemented in those regards as that
is the way it is now ??
Matthew E Finley
Q.C.I Technical Assistant
248-794-8487<tel:248-794-8487> mobile
-------- Original message --------
From: "Dr. Mike Harrison via NSRCA-discussion"
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
Date: 9/7/16 2:38 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: 'Scott McHarg' <scmcharg at gmail.com<mailto:scmcharg at gmail.com>>, 'General
pattern discussion'
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
I am hesitant to get in this discussion but I want to express that I believe
we are in significant decline and I opine that it is because of the expense,
complexity and difficulty of flying and competing. The fundamental reason,
I believe, is the cost, complexity and burden of time to simply use the
current aircraft. I have drafted but not submitted a rules change to affect
that issue.
Fundamentally, I submit that the beginning classes be restricted to smaller
aircraft with limitations of powerplant sizes.
The existing current pilots flying in those classes have their current
aircraft grandfathered in.
These classes would be sportsman, intermediate, and advanced.
If you would research the cost of aircraft w 22volt systems vs our current
systems you will find the cost of smaller aircraft to be ? to 1/3 the cost
of the current 2m plane.
The vast majority of parents will not spend $4000-5000 for their kid to
compete a few times in the beginning classes, nor commit a monthly expense
of $200+ or whatever to maintain. And then there is the crash and destroy
$1000?s in one aircraft. Even adults won?t commit to that kind of expense
themselves.
There is more to this but that is the basic underlying cause of the disease.
Mike
From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On
Behalf Of Scott McHarg via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Wednesday, September 7, 2016 9:49 AM
To: tretas513 at yahoo.com<mailto:tretas513 at yahoo.com>; General pattern
discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
Mr. Lukas and I were having an offline conversation. We were discussing why
the new guys aren't getting into pattern. The question, essentially, was
what's the difference between those getting into other facets vs. pattern.
This is my opinion and will be part of my article this month in the
K-Factor:
The answer I'm about to give you makes it sound like all is lost. I don't
believe it is (which is why we came up with the Club sequence) but let's
just stick to what we know and what is obvious from the assumption
standpoint for a moment.
The answer to your question can be one word only or it can be a million
adjectives of the same word. That word is "cool". The kids coming up want
instant gratification, want to be cool, want notoriety, want to be thought
of as the kid who can show off the best. You simply can't do that with
pattern. Have you watched the fingers of these kids that fly 3D at Joe Nall
or IRCHA? They're slamming sticks. Then, watch the planes / helicopters
and see how much of the stick movement actually equates to control over the
aircraft. Half of the time is spent simply recovering from mistakes. :)
For some reason, the world has changed into a Social Media frenzy. Kids
feel like they're missing out if we as parents threaten to take away their
phones as punishment. Kids don't need to go outside to talk to friends
because they can do it on the couch with their phones. They want instant
gratification and instant knowledge. Most of the time, their friends know
what's going on before other people at the event know because of this.
Pattern is nothing like this mentality at all. Pattern takes a lot of
practice (as you know) and patience and set up and checking to make sure
everything is perfect. Practicing is boring unless you're doing it.
There's no "wow factor". In my opinion, THIS is what we're battling. In
pattern, you actually have to fly the aircraft perfectly. There's no gyro
to make you look better (Quads, Helicopters and Drones), there's not that
much of an adrenaline rush (until you're in front of the judges) and there's
no screen to stare at like in FPV racing. Pattern is an art and it takes
that special person, the guy that wants to be artistic, to be a pattern
pilot. Our costs are high for the best of the best which all of these kids
want. They don't want a 1980 Super Kaos to learn the skills required. In
almost all other facets, you can have quite good equipment, that is accepted
by their peers, for a lot less than what it would take to have a "not bottom
of the line" pattern plane.
Scott A. McHarg
VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot
Texas A&M University
PPL - ASEL
Remote Pilot Certified Under FAA Part 107
On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 9:40 AM, tretas513--- via NSRCA-discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
wrote:
Most pattern fliers know why pattern is declining but won't admit it...too
much expense, too much time invested for practice and traveling, and in my
opinion (and a lot of others) turnaround sucks !
Flying airplanes and competing is supposed to be fun...it used to be...still
is in SPA !!
My entire SPA airplane ready to fly costs half what the engine in my 2 meter
cost and most SPA contests are one day meets...no motels !!
Disclaimer: just my opinion !!
Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE Smartphone
------ Original message------
From: Whodaddy Whodaddy via NSRCA-discussion
Date: Wed, Sep 7, 2016 8:40 AM
To: Jas S;
Cc: General pattern discussion;
Subject:Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
?
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 6, 2016, at 9:11 PM, Jas S
<justanotherflyr at gmail.com<mailto:justanotherflyr at gmail.com>> wrote:
Isn't that like hearing a Masters pilot say the roll on the top of a loop
shouldn't be in Masters lol. Love ya Gary
On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Whodaddy Whodaddy via NSRCA-discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
wrote:
Sportsman isnt easy enough ????
Not sure how it could get more basic ..
But wat ever works lord knows we need something to attract new blood or
bring old blood back...
G
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 6, 2016, at 1:00 PM, Scott McHarg via NSRCA-discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
wrote:
All,
This is a note from Jon Carter from the NSRCA BoD. FYI!
Announcing the NSRCA ?Club Class!
Whether you want to call it Club class or Novice class or whatever, it?s OK,
as long as we get more people flying pattern! What is this? Good question,
we have heard from the membership that it would be nice for the NSRCA to
define a non-rulebook pattern entry level event that a CD could offer if
they so decided. This would be a non-turnaround ?old-school? type of pattern
that any club flyer could do and yet still be challenged by. It will give
the CD the opportunity to grab some of the ?hot dog? type sport flyers at
his club, and maybe some old time pattern pilots, and hand them a
maneuver/downgrade sheet and say ?come on out to the pattern contest next
weekend and see what you can do!? Who knows, if he can get three or four
club flyers to come out maybe some will think, ?Hey, this is fun! I could
learn that Sportsman pattern? Worst case it will get some more club flyers
to participate in local events which always makes it easier to ?sell? a
pattern contest to the local club officer
s! So, dust off those older pattern planes and those sport planes and come
out and have some fun! Look on the NSRCA website under the Sequence tab for
the maneuver list and descriptions.
https://nsrca.us/index.php/sequences
Scott A. McHarg
VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot
Texas A&M University
PPL - ASEL
Remote Pilot Certified Under FAA Part 107
_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list
NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list
NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
--
Jason
http://jasonshangar.weebly.com/
_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list
NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list
NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list
NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
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------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 17:33:40 -0400
From: "Jay Marshall" <lightfoot at sc.rr.com>
To: "'Patternpilot One'" <patternpilot1 at hotmail.com>, "'General
pattern discussion'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision
Aerobatics
Message-ID: <00ba01d2094f$80350370$809f0a50$@sc.rr.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
I have tried to fly ?smaller? aircraft at several NSRCA contest but found
them to non-competitive when judged against the big boys. The only saving
change would be a lower class with different rules.
Jay Marshall
From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On
Behalf Of Patternpilot One via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2016 4:54 PM
To: Atwood, Mark; General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
Mark,
Well said... spot on !
Sa.
Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------
From: "Atwood, Mark via NSRCA-discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Date: 9/7/16 4:51 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: Scott McHarg <scmcharg at gmail.com>, General pattern discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
I?d like to present a slightly different take (though not dispelling what
Mike or others are saying) but it?s specific to this new class and why I
think it?s important, AND how to sell it.
IN MY OPINION? let me start with that?
IN my opinion, pattern is all about competition, and in general, a very
small percentage of society, in ANY hobby, is focused on competing. Those
that are, get the bug. We have created MANY barriers for the competitive
person to try pattern. Cost, Commitment, Difficulty, etc, we all know them.
The one this Club Class is trying to address, is getting your local sport
guy to experience the contest environment and see if they like it. Only a
few will?and those that do, will do what they need to do to participate.
But we?re not even getting them that far.
This allows them to grab a group of their hot shot, fun fly buddies, bring
planes that already have, fly maneuvers they already know how to do, and get
bragging rights amongst their peers as to who was better.
There are MANY golfers out there? and most won?t sign up for a serious
tournament. Too tense, too expensive, too many better golfers that will
make them feel foolish?etc. But they?ll all grab their golf buddies and go
play a scramble and try to win. And just like pattern? if you actually
DO sign up for a tournament, you?ll find it?s NOT tense, half the players
suck more than you do, and it?s a ton of fun.
So this club class, if properly promoted? is a way to get your local club to
participate. It?s no good to get one guy? you need to get a handful under
the premise that they?re competing against one another. No pressure. No
out of town semi pro sportsman on the tour to embarrass them. Club class is
really for local flyers only.
The goal is really two fold in my mind. One, to get local participation.
It?s added help for the CD, and added benefit for the club hosting the
event. Two, they might like it. IF they have that competitive bug, they?ll
get bit. They?ll see how a contest flows. See the caliber of the Novice
(sorry?sportsman) pilots and realize, ?hey?I can do that?. And maybe will
give it a try. At THAT point? they?ll learn the simple turnaround that
Sportsman has. But until then, this needs to be uber simple, and heavily
promoted.
My $0.02
-Mark
MARK ATWOOD
o. (440) 229-2502
c. (216) 316-2489
e. <mailto:atwoodm at paragon-inc.com> atwoodm at paragon-inc.com
Paragon Consulting, Inc.
5900 Landerbrook Drive, Suite 205, Cleveland Ohio, 44124
<http://www.paragon-inc.com/> www.paragon-inc.com
Powering The Digital Experience
On Sep 7, 2016, at 4:07 PM, Scott McHarg via NSRCA-discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
Mike's right. It won't work because a few can afford the 2M modern planes
and if one can have it, they all must have it.
Scott A. McHarg
VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot
Texas A&M University
PPL - ASEL
Remote Pilot Certified Under FAA Part 107
On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 3:04 PM, Dr. Mike Harrison via NSRCA-discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
You are correct but human nature gets in the way. Making a rule to limit
this fixes a lot of issues. These smaller planes fly very well. Got to
create rules that perpetuate less expense and less difficulty, just being
voluntary is not gonna work.
Mike
From: Matthew Finley [mailto:rcfin02 at msn.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 7, 2016 2:28 PM
To: Dr. Mike Harrison <drmikedds at sbcglobal.net>; General pattern discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>; 'Scott McHarg' <scmcharg at gmail.com>
Subject: RE: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
My thoughts are this, and only in my opinion.... I have the choice to fly
any aircraft I choose in any class I choose as long as it is under 11
pounds, and no larger than 2 meter ( that's also pretty loose, as I have
never seen a scale taken out at a regular meet for 13 years or more). If
someone wants to go out and buy a 6s or 8s capable aerobatic bird, and fly
Sportsman, Intermesiate, Advanced, masters, or even FAI with it, go for it.
We all know that it will be smaller thus harder to judge, maneuvers will be
smaller, and etc.... But they are not required to have a 2 meter ship. I
don't see why a rule change has to be implemented in those regards as that
is the way it is now ??
Matthew E Finley
Q.C.I Technical Assistant
248-794-8487 mobile
-------- Original message --------
From: "Dr. Mike Harrison via NSRCA-discussion"
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Date: 9/7/16 2:38 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: 'Scott McHarg' <scmcharg at gmail.com>, 'General pattern discussion'
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
I am hesitant to get in this discussion but I want to express that I believe
we are in significant decline and I opine that it is because of the expense,
complexity and difficulty of flying and competing. The fundamental reason,
I believe, is the cost, complexity and burden of time to simply use the
current aircraft. I have drafted but not submitted a rules change to affect
that issue.
Fundamentally, I submit that the beginning classes be restricted to smaller
aircraft with limitations of powerplant sizes.
The existing current pilots flying in those classes have their current
aircraft grandfathered in.
These classes would be sportsman, intermediate, and advanced.
If you would research the cost of aircraft w 22volt systems vs our current
systems you will find the cost of smaller aircraft to be ? to 1/3 the cost
of the current 2m plane.
The vast majority of parents will not spend $4000-5000 for their kid to
compete a few times in the beginning classes, nor commit a monthly expense
of $200+ or whatever to maintain. And then there is the crash and destroy
$1000?s in one aircraft. Even adults won?t commit to that kind of expense
themselves.
There is more to this but that is the basic underlying cause of the disease.
Mike
From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On
Behalf Of Scott McHarg via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Wednesday, September 7, 2016 9:49 AM
To: tretas513 at yahoo.com; General pattern discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
Mr. Lukas and I were having an offline conversation. We were discussing why
the new guys aren't getting into pattern. The question, essentially, was
what's the difference between those getting into other facets vs. pattern.
This is my opinion and will be part of my article this month in the
K-Factor:
The answer I'm about to give you makes it sound like all is lost. I don't
believe it is (which is why we came up with the Club sequence) but let's
just stick to what we know and what is obvious from the assumption
standpoint for a moment.
The answer to your question can be one word only or it can be a million
adjectives of the same word. That word is "cool". The kids coming up want
instant gratification, want to be cool, want notoriety, want to be thought
of as the kid who can show off the best. You simply can't do that with
pattern. Have you watched the fingers of these kids that fly 3D at Joe Nall
or IRCHA? They're slamming sticks. Then, watch the planes / helicopters
and see how much of the stick movement actually equates to control over the
aircraft. Half of the time is spent simply recovering from mistakes. :)
For some reason, the world has changed into a Social Media frenzy. Kids
feel like they're missing out if we as parents threaten to take away their
phones as punishment. Kids don't need to go outside to talk to friends
because they can do it on the couch with their phones. They want instant
gratification and instant knowledge. Most of the time, their friends know
what's going on before other people at the event know because of this.
Pattern is nothing like this mentality at all. Pattern takes a lot of
practice (as you know) and patience and set up and checking to make sure
everything is perfect. Practicing is boring unless you're doing it.
There's no "wow factor". In my opinion, THIS is what we're battling. In
pattern, you actually have to fly the aircraft perfectly. There's no gyro
to make you look better (Quads, Helicopters and Drones), there's not that
much of an adrenaline rush (until you're in front of the judges) and there's
no screen to stare at like in FPV racing. Pattern is an art and it takes
that special person, the guy that wants to be artistic, to be a pattern
pilot. Our costs are high for the best of the best which all of these kids
want. They don't want a 1980 Super Kaos to learn the skills required. In
almost all other facets, you can have quite good equipment, that is accepted
by their peers, for a lot less than what it would take to have a "not bottom
of the line" pattern plane.
Scott A. McHarg
VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot
Texas A&M University
PPL - ASEL
Remote Pilot Certified Under FAA Part 107
On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 9:40 AM, tretas513--- via NSRCA-discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
Most pattern fliers know why pattern is declining but won't admit it...too
much expense, too much time invested for practice and traveling, and in my
opinion (and a lot of others) turnaround sucks !
Flying airplanes and competing is supposed to be fun...it used to be...still
is in SPA !!
My entire SPA airplane ready to fly costs half what the engine in my 2 meter
cost and most SPA contests are one day meets...no motels !!
Disclaimer: just my opinion !!
Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE Smartphone
------ Original message------
From: Whodaddy Whodaddy via NSRCA-discussion
Date: Wed, Sep 7, 2016 8:40 AM
To: Jas S;
Cc: General pattern discussion;
Subject:Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
?
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 6, 2016, at 9:11 PM, Jas S <justanotherflyr at gmail.com> wrote:
Isn't that like hearing a Masters pilot say the roll on the top of a loop
shouldn't be in Masters lol. Love ya Gary
On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Whodaddy Whodaddy via NSRCA-discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
Sportsman isnt easy enough ????
Not sure how it could get more basic ..
But wat ever works lord knows we need something to attract new blood or
bring old blood back...
G
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 6, 2016, at 1:00 PM, Scott McHarg via NSRCA-discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
All,
This is a note from Jon Carter from the NSRCA BoD. FYI!
Announcing the NSRCA ?Club Class!
Whether you want to call it Club class or Novice class or whatever, it?s OK,
as long as we get more people flying pattern! What is this? Good question,
we have heard from the membership that it would be nice for the NSRCA to
define a non-rulebook pattern entry level event that a CD could offer if
they so decided. This would be a non-turnaround ?old-school? type of pattern
that any club flyer could do and yet still be challenged by. It will give
the CD the opportunity to grab some of the ?hot dog? type sport flyers at
his club, and maybe some old time pattern pilots, and hand them a
maneuver/downgrade sheet and say ?come on out to the pattern contest next
weekend and see what you can do!? Who knows, if he can get three or four
club flyers to come out maybe some will think, ?Hey, this is fun! I could
learn that Sportsman pattern? Worst case it will get some more club flyers
to participate in local events which always makes it easier to ?sell? a
pattern contest to the local club officer
s! So, dust off those older pattern planes and those sport planes and come
out and have some fun! Look on the NSRCA website under the Sequence tab for
the maneuver list and descriptions.
<https://nsrca.us/index.php/sequences> https://nsrca.us/index.php/sequences
Scott A. McHarg
VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot
Texas A&M University
PPL - ASEL
Remote Pilot Certified Under FAA Part 107
_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list
NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list
NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
--
Jason
http://jasonshangar.weebly.com/
_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list
NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list
NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list
NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
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Message: 13
Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2016 16:35:55 -0500
From: Ron <vanputte at cox.net>
To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>,
"Michael S. Harrison" <drmikedds at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision
Aerobatics
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Message: 14
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 21:52:23 +0000
From: Anthony Romano <anthonyr105 at hotmail.com>
To: Tom Simes <simestd at netexpress.com>, Tom Simes via NSRCA-discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision
Aerobatics
Message-ID:
<BN6PR06MB29316EF0DF0A4A282645E2EDE2F80 at BN6PR06MB2931.namprd06.prod.outlook.
com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Remember the effect of the 2% biplane bonus at TOC. Everyone flew a biplane
after that.
Also remember TOC started as a pattern contest but wasn't exciting enough.
At least a score bonus gives a pilot a chance and wouldn't be a very
difficult experiment for us.
To steal a line from Mike"we have to do something even if it is wrong."
Lots of complaining hasn't gotten us anywhere.
Anthony
Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/ghei36>
On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 4:15 PM -0400, "Tom Simes via NSRCA-discussion"
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
wrote:
What about offering some kind of reasoned and documented scoring bonus
in the feeder classes for using smaller aircraft?
On 09/07/16 12:07, Scott McHarg via NSRCA-discussion wrote:
> Mike's right. It won't work because a few can afford the 2M modern planes
> and if one can have it, they all must have it.
>
> *Scott A. McHarg*
> VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot
> Texas A&M University
> PPL - ASEL
> Remote Pilot Certified Under FAA Part 107
>
> On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 3:04 PM, Dr. Mike Harrison via NSRCA-discussion <
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>
>> You are correct but human nature gets in the way. Making a rule to limit
>> this fixes a lot of issues. These smaller planes fly very well. Got to
>> create rules that perpetuate less expense and less difficulty, just being
>> voluntary is not gonna work.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Matthew Finley [mailto:rcfin02 at msn.com]
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 7, 2016 2:28 PM
>> *To:* Dr. Mike Harrison <drmikedds at sbcglobal.net>; General pattern
>> discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>; 'Scott McHarg' <
>> scmcharg at gmail.com>
>> *Subject:* RE: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
>>
>>
>>
>> My thoughts are this, and only in my opinion.... I have the choice to fly
>> any aircraft I choose in any class I choose as long as it is under 11
>> pounds, and no larger than 2 meter ( that's also pretty loose, as I have
>> never seen a scale taken out at a regular meet for 13 years or more). If
>> someone wants to go out and buy a 6s or 8s capable aerobatic bird, and
fly
>> Sportsman, Intermesiate, Advanced, masters, or even FAI with it, go for
it.
>> We all know that it will be smaller thus harder to judge, maneuvers will
be
>> smaller, and etc.... But they are not required to have a 2 meter ship. I
>> don't see why a rule change has to be implemented in those regards as
that
>> is the way it is now ??
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Matthew E Finley
>>
>> Q.C.I Technical Assistant
>>
>> 248-794-8487 mobile
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -------- Original message --------
>>
>> From: "Dr. Mike Harrison via NSRCA-discussion" <
>> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>
>> Date: 9/7/16 2:38 PM (GMT-05:00)
>>
>> To: 'Scott McHarg' <scmcharg at gmail.com>, 'General pattern discussion' <
>> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
>>
>>
>>
>> I am hesitant to get in this discussion but I want to express that I
>> believe we are in significant decline and I opine that it is because of
the
>> expense, complexity and difficulty of flying and competing. The
>> fundamental reason, I believe, is the cost, complexity and burden of time
>> to simply use the current aircraft. I have drafted but not submitted a
>> rules change to affect that issue.
>>
>> Fundamentally, I submit that the beginning classes be restricted to
>> smaller aircraft with limitations of powerplant sizes.
>>
>> The existing current pilots flying in those classes have their current
>> aircraft grandfathered in.
>>
>> These classes would be sportsman, intermediate, and advanced.
>>
>>
>>
>> If you would research the cost of aircraft w 22volt systems vs our
current
>> systems you will find the cost of smaller aircraft to be ? to 1/3 the
cost
>> of the current 2m plane.
>>
>>
>>
>> The vast majority of parents will not spend $4000-5000 for their kid to
>> compete a few times in the beginning classes, nor commit a monthly
expense
>> of $200+ or whatever to maintain. And then there is the crash and destroy
>> $1000?s in one aircraft. Even adults won?t commit to that kind of
expense
>> themselves.
>>
>>
>>
>> There is more to this but that is the basic underlying cause of the
>> disease.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>> <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>] *On Behalf Of *Scott McHarg
>> via NSRCA-discussion
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 7, 2016 9:49 AM
>> *To:* tretas513 at yahoo.com; General pattern discussion <
>> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
>>
>>
>>
>> Mr. Lukas and I were having an offline conversation. We were discussing
>> why the new guys aren't getting into pattern. The question, essentially,
>> was what's the difference between those getting into other facets vs.
>> pattern. This is my opinion and will be part of my article this month in
>> the K-Factor:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The answer I'm about to give you makes it sound like all is lost. I
don't
>> believe it is (which is why we came up with the Club sequence) but let's
>> just stick to what we know and what is obvious from the assumption
>> standpoint for a moment.
>>
>>
>>
>> The answer to your question can be one word only or it can be a million
>> adjectives of the same word. That word is "cool". The kids coming up
want
>> instant gratification, want to be cool, want notoriety, want to be
thought
>> of as the kid who can show off the best. You simply can't do that with
>> pattern. Have you watched the fingers of these kids that fly 3D at Joe
>> Nall or IRCHA? They're slamming sticks. Then, watch the planes /
>> helicopters and see how much of the stick movement actually equates to
>> control over the aircraft. Half of the time is spent simply recovering
>> from mistakes. :)
>>
>>
>>
>> For some reason, the world has changed into a Social Media frenzy. Kids
>> feel like they're missing out if we as parents threaten to take away
their
>> phones as punishment. Kids don't need to go outside to talk to friends
>> because they can do it on the couch with their phones. They want instant
>> gratification and instant knowledge. Most of the time, their friends
know
>> what's going on before other people at the event know because of this.
>>
>>
>>
>> Pattern is nothing like this mentality at all. Pattern takes a lot of
>> practice (as you know) and patience and set up and checking to make sure
>> everything is perfect. Practicing is boring unless you're doing it.
>> There's no "wow factor". In my opinion, THIS is what we're battling. In
>> pattern, you actually have to fly the aircraft perfectly. There's no
gyro
>> to make you look better (Quads, Helicopters and Drones), there's not that
>> much of an adrenaline rush (until you're in front of the judges) and
>> there's no screen to stare at like in FPV racing. Pattern is an art and
it
>> takes that special person, the guy that wants to be artistic, to be a
>> pattern pilot. Our costs are high for the best of the best which all of
>> these kids want. They don't want a 1980 Super Kaos to learn the skills
>> required. In almost all other facets, you can have quite good equipment,
>> that is accepted by their peers, for a lot less than what it would take
to
>> have a "not bottom of the line" pattern plane.
>>
>>
>> *Scott A. McHarg*
>>
>> VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot
>>
>> Texas A&M University
>>
>> PPL - ASEL
>>
>> Remote Pilot Certified Under FAA Part 107
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 9:40 AM, tretas513--- via NSRCA-discussion <
>> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>>
>> Most pattern fliers know why pattern is declining but won't admit
it...too
>> much expense, too much time invested for practice and traveling, and in
my
>> opinion (and a lot of others) turnaround sucks !
>>
>> Flying airplanes and competing is supposed to be fun...it used to
>> be...still is in SPA !!
>>
>> My entire SPA airplane ready to fly costs half what the engine in my 2
>> meter cost and most SPA contests are one day meets...no motels !!
>>
>> Disclaimer: just my opinion !!
>>
>>
>>
>> *Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE Smartphone*
>>
>>
>>
>> ------ Original message------
>>
>> *From: *Whodaddy Whodaddy via NSRCA-discussion
>>
>> *Date: *Wed, Sep 7, 2016 8:40 AM
>>
>> *To: *Jas S;
>>
>> *Cc: *General pattern discussion;
>>
>> *Subject:*Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
>>
>>
>>
>> ?
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
>> On Sep 6, 2016, at 9:11 PM, Jas S <justanotherflyr at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Isn't that like hearing a Masters pilot say the roll on the top of a loop
>> shouldn't be in Masters lol. Love ya Gary
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Whodaddy Whodaddy via NSRCA-discussion <
>> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>>
>> Sportsman isnt easy enough ????
>>
>>
>>
>> Not sure how it could get more basic ..
>>
>>
>>
>> But wat ever works lord knows we need something to attract new blood or
>> bring old blood back...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> G
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
>> On Sep 6, 2016, at 1:00 PM, Scott McHarg via NSRCA-discussion <
>> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>>
>> All,
>>
>>
>>
>> This is a note from Jon Carter from the NSRCA BoD. FYI!
>>
>>
>>
>> Announcing the NSRCA ?Club Class!
>>
>> Whether you want to call it Club class or Novice class or whatever, it?s
>> OK, as long as we get more people flying pattern! What is this? Good
>> question, we have heard from the membership that it would be nice for the
>> NSRCA to define a non-rulebook pattern entry level event that a CD could
>> offer if they so decided. This would be a non-turnaround ?old-school?
type
>> of pattern that any club flyer could do and yet still be challenged by.
It
>> will give the CD the opportunity to grab some of the ?hot dog? type sport
>> flyers at his club, and maybe some old time pattern pilots, and hand them
a
>> maneuver/downgrade sheet and say ?come on out to the pattern contest next
>> weekend and see what you can do!? Who knows, if he can get three or four
>> club flyers to come out maybe some will think, ?Hey, this is fun! I could
>> learn that Sportsman pattern? Worst case it will get some more club
flyers
>> to participate in local events which always makes it easier to ?sell? a
>> pattern contest to the local club officers! So, dust off those older
>> pattern planes and those sport planes and come out and have some fun!
Look
>> on the NSRCA website under the Sequence tab for the maneuver list and
>> descriptions.
>>
>> https://nsrca.us/index.php/sequences
>>
>>
>>
>> *Scott A. McHarg*
>>
>> VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot
>>
>> Texas A&M University
>>
>> PPL - ASEL
>>
>> Remote Pilot Certified Under FAA Part 107
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Jason
>> http://jasonshangar.weebly.com/
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
--
Tom
======================================================================
"Z80 system stack overflow. Shut 'er down Scotty, she's
sucking mud again!" - Error message on XENIX v3.0
Tom Simes simestd at netexpress.com
======================================================================
_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list
NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
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------------------------------
Message: 15
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 22:35:30 +0000
From: KEVIN DUNCAN <duncanbp at msn.com>
To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision
Aerobatics
Message-ID:
<BY2PR15MB02939FC0D2E6489E3E0FCF2FC4F80 at BY2PR15MB0293.namprd15.prod.outlook.
com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Back in March 2016, I submitted an article in K-Factor addressing this
issue. You'll find it under District 7. It may be of interest for you all
to go back and re-read it. After getting to know the Classic Pattern
Association guys here on the west coast, I felt that we could possibly
incorporate the CPA into our lower classes of pattern.
Curious to know your all's opinion on that since we're already discussing
our ideas here.
Kevin
Kevin Duncan duncanbp at msn.com
________________________________
From: NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> on behalf
of Anthony Romano via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 7, 2016 2:52 PM
To: Tom Simes; Tom Simes via NSRCA-discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
Remember the effect of the 2% biplane bonus at TOC. Everyone flew a biplane
after that.
Also remember TOC started as a pattern contest but wasn't exciting enough.
At least a score bonus gives a pilot a chance and wouldn't be a very
difficult experiment for us.
To steal a line from Mike"we have to do something even if it is wrong."
Lots of complaining hasn't gotten us anywhere.
Anthony
Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/ghei36>
On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 4:15 PM -0400, "Tom Simes via NSRCA-discussion"
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
wrote:
What about offering some kind of reasoned and documented scoring bonus
in the feeder classes for using smaller aircraft?
On 09/07/16 12:07, Scott McHarg via NSRCA-discussion wrote:
> Mike's right. It won't work because a few can afford the 2M modern planes
> and if one can have it, they all must have it.
>
> *Scott A. McHarg*
> VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot
> Texas A&M University
> PPL - ASEL
> Remote Pilot Certified Under FAA Part 107
>
> On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 3:04 PM, Dr. Mike Harrison via NSRCA-discussion <
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>
>> You are correct but human nature gets in the way. Making a rule to limit
>> this fixes a lot of issues. These smaller planes fly very well. Got to
>> create rules that perpetuate less expense and less difficulty, just being
>> voluntary is not gonna work.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Matthew Finley [mailto:rcfin02 at msn.com]
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 7, 2016 2:28 PM
>> *To:* Dr. Mike Harrison <drmikedds at sbcglobal.net>; General pattern
>> discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>; 'Scott McHarg' <
>> scmcharg at gmail.com>
>> *Subject:* RE: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
>>
>>
>>
>> My thoughts are this, and only in my opinion.... I have the choice to fly
>> any aircraft I choose in any class I choose as long as it is under 11
>> pounds, and no larger than 2 meter ( that's also pretty loose, as I have
>> never seen a scale taken out at a regular meet for 13 years or more). If
>> someone wants to go out and buy a 6s or 8s capable aerobatic bird, and
fly
>> Sportsman, Intermesiate, Advanced, masters, or even FAI with it, go for
it.
>> We all know that it will be smaller thus harder to judge, maneuvers will
be
>> smaller, and etc.... But they are not required to have a 2 meter ship. I
>> don't see why a rule change has to be implemented in those regards as
that
>> is the way it is now ??
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Matthew E Finley
>>
>> Q.C.I Technical Assistant
>>
>> 248-794-8487 mobile
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -------- Original message --------
>>
>> From: "Dr. Mike Harrison via NSRCA-discussion" <
>> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>
>> Date: 9/7/16 2:38 PM (GMT-05:00)
>>
>> To: 'Scott McHarg' <scmcharg at gmail.com>, 'General pattern discussion' <
>> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
>>
>>
>>
>> I am hesitant to get in this discussion but I want to express that I
>> believe we are in significant decline and I opine that it is because of
the
>> expense, complexity and difficulty of flying and competing. The
>> fundamental reason, I believe, is the cost, complexity and burden of time
>> to simply use the current aircraft. I have drafted but not submitted a
>> rules change to affect that issue.
>>
>> Fundamentally, I submit that the beginning classes be restricted to
>> smaller aircraft with limitations of powerplant sizes.
>>
>> The existing current pilots flying in those classes have their current
>> aircraft grandfathered in.
>>
>> These classes would be sportsman, intermediate, and advanced.
>>
>>
>>
>> If you would research the cost of aircraft w 22volt systems vs our
current
>> systems you will find the cost of smaller aircraft to be ? to 1/3 the
cost
>> of the current 2m plane.
>>
>>
>>
>> The vast majority of parents will not spend $4000-5000 for their kid to
>> compete a few times in the beginning classes, nor commit a monthly
expense
>> of $200+ or whatever to maintain. And then there is the crash and destroy
>> $1000?s in one aircraft. Even adults won?t commit to that kind of
expense
>> themselves.
>>
>>
>>
>> There is more to this but that is the basic underlying cause of the
>> disease.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>> <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>] *On Behalf Of *Scott McHarg
>> via NSRCA-discussion
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 7, 2016 9:49 AM
>> *To:* tretas513 at yahoo.com; General pattern discussion <
>> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
>>
>>
>>
>> Mr. Lukas and I were having an offline conversation. We were discussing
>> why the new guys aren't getting into pattern. The question, essentially,
>> was what's the difference between those getting into other facets vs.
>> pattern. This is my opinion and will be part of my article this month in
>> the K-Factor:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The answer I'm about to give you makes it sound like all is lost. I
don't
>> believe it is (which is why we came up with the Club sequence) but let's
>> just stick to what we know and what is obvious from the assumption
>> standpoint for a moment.
>>
>>
>>
>> The answer to your question can be one word only or it can be a million
>> adjectives of the same word. That word is "cool". The kids coming up
want
>> instant gratification, want to be cool, want notoriety, want to be
thought
>> of as the kid who can show off the best. You simply can't do that with
>> pattern. Have you watched the fingers of these kids that fly 3D at Joe
>> Nall or IRCHA? They're slamming sticks. Then, watch the planes /
>> helicopters and see how much of the stick movement actually equates to
>> control over the aircraft. Half of the time is spent simply recovering
>> from mistakes. :)
>>
>>
>>
>> For some reason, the world has changed into a Social Media frenzy. Kids
>> feel like they're missing out if we as parents threaten to take away
their
>> phones as punishment. Kids don't need to go outside to talk to friends
>> because they can do it on the couch with their phones. They want instant
>> gratification and instant knowledge. Most of the time, their friends
know
>> what's going on before other people at the event know because of this.
>>
>>
>>
>> Pattern is nothing like this mentality at all. Pattern takes a lot of
>> practice (as you know) and patience and set up and checking to make sure
>> everything is perfect. Practicing is boring unless you're doing it.
>> There's no "wow factor". In my opinion, THIS is what we're battling. In
>> pattern, you actually have to fly the aircraft perfectly. There's no
gyro
>> to make you look better (Quads, Helicopters and Drones), there's not that
>> much of an adrenaline rush (until you're in front of the judges) and
>> there's no screen to stare at like in FPV racing. Pattern is an art and
it
>> takes that special person, the guy that wants to be artistic, to be a
>> pattern pilot. Our costs are high for the best of the best which all of
>> these kids want. They don't want a 1980 Super Kaos to learn the skills
>> required. In almost all other facets, you can have quite good equipment,
>> that is accepted by their peers, for a lot less than what it would take
to
>> have a "not bottom of the line" pattern plane.
>>
>>
>> *Scott A. McHarg*
>>
>> VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot
>>
>> Texas A&M University
>>
>> PPL - ASEL
>>
>> Remote Pilot Certified Under FAA Part 107
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 9:40 AM, tretas513--- via NSRCA-discussion <
>> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>>
>> Most pattern fliers know why pattern is declining but won't admit
it...too
>> much expense, too much time invested for practice and traveling, and in
my
>> opinion (and a lot of others) turnaround sucks !
>>
>> Flying airplanes and competing is supposed to be fun...it used to
>> be...still is in SPA !!
>>
>> My entire SPA airplane ready to fly costs half what the engine in my 2
>> meter cost and most SPA contests are one day meets...no motels !!
>>
>> Disclaimer: just my opinion !!
>>
>>
>>
>> *Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE Smartphone*
>>
>>
>>
>> ------ Original message------
>>
>> *From: *Whodaddy Whodaddy via NSRCA-discussion
>>
>> *Date: *Wed, Sep 7, 2016 8:40 AM
>>
>> *To: *Jas S;
>>
>> *Cc: *General pattern discussion;
>>
>> *Subject:*Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
>>
>>
>>
>> ?
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
>> On Sep 6, 2016, at 9:11 PM, Jas S <justanotherflyr at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Isn't that like hearing a Masters pilot say the roll on the top of a loop
>> shouldn't be in Masters lol. Love ya Gary
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Whodaddy Whodaddy via NSRCA-discussion <
>> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>>
>> Sportsman isnt easy enough ????
>>
>>
>>
>> Not sure how it could get more basic ..
>>
>>
>>
>> But wat ever works lord knows we need something to attract new blood or
>> bring old blood back...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> G
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
>> On Sep 6, 2016, at 1:00 PM, Scott McHarg via NSRCA-discussion <
>> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>>
>> All,
>>
>>
>>
>> This is a note from Jon Carter from the NSRCA BoD. FYI!
>>
>>
>>
>> Announcing the NSRCA ?Club Class!
>>
>> Whether you want to call it Club class or Novice class or whatever, it?s
>> OK, as long as we get more people flying pattern! What is this? Good
>> question, we have heard from the membership that it would be nice for the
>> NSRCA to define a non-rulebook pattern entry level event that a CD could
>> offer if they so decided. This would be a non-turnaround ?old-school?
type
>> of pattern that any club flyer could do and yet still be challenged by.
It
>> will give the CD the opportunity to grab some of the ?hot dog? type sport
>> flyers at his club, and maybe some old time pattern pilots, and hand them
a
>> maneuver/downgrade sheet and say ?come on out to the pattern contest next
>> weekend and see what you can do!? Who knows, if he can get three or four
>> club flyers to come out maybe some will think, ?Hey, this is fun! I could
>> learn that Sportsman pattern? Worst case it will get some more club
flyers
>> to participate in local events which always makes it easier to ?sell? a
>> pattern contest to the local club officers! So, dust off those older
>> pattern planes and those sport planes and come out and have some fun!
Look
>> on the NSRCA website under the Sequence tab for the maneuver list and
>> descriptions.
>>
>> https://nsrca.us/index.php/sequences
>>
>>
>>
>> *Scott A. McHarg*
>>
>> VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot
>>
>> Texas A&M University
>>
>> PPL - ASEL
>>
>> Remote Pilot Certified Under FAA Part 107
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Jason
>> http://jasonshangar.weebly.com/
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
--
Tom
======================================================================
"Z80 system stack overflow. Shut 'er down Scotty, she's
sucking mud again!" - Error message on XENIX v3.0
Tom Simes simestd at netexpress.com
======================================================================
_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list
NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
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Message: 16
Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2016 19:17:05 -0500
From: "tretas513 at yahoo.com" <tretas513 at yahoo.com>
To: KEVIN DUNCAN via NSRCA-discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision
Aerobatics
Message-ID: <90bdtjgs7h4jq6fupitil362.1473293825879 at email.lge.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Kevin Duncan...I think that's a great idea !!
Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE Smartphone
------ Original message------From: KEVIN DUNCAN via NSRCA-discussion Date:
Wed, Sep 7, 2016 5:36 PMTo: General pattern discussion;Cc: Subject:Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
Back in March 2016, I submitted an article in K-Factor addressing this
issue. ?You'll find it under District 7. ?It may be of interest for you all
to go back and re-read it. ?After getting to know the Classic Pattern
Association guys here on the west coast, I felt that we could possibly
incorporate the CPA into our lower classes of pattern.
Curious to know your all's opinion on that since we're already discussing
our ideas here.
Kevin
Kevin Duncan duncanbp at msn.com
From: NSRCA-discussion > on behalf of Anthony Romano via NSRCA-discussion >
Sent: Wednesday, September 7, 2016 2:52 PM
To: Tom Simes; Tom Simes via NSRCA-discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision
Aerobatics?Remember the effect of the 2% biplane bonus at TOC. Everyone flew
a biplane after that.
Also remember TOC started as a pattern contest but wasn't exciting enough.
At least a score bonus gives a pilot a chance and wouldn't be a very
difficult experiment for us.
To steal a line from Mike"we have to do something even if it is wrong."
Lots of complaining hasn't gotten us anywhere.
AnthonyGet Outlook for Android
On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 4:15 PM -0400, "Tom Simes via
NSRCA-discussion"<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
What about offering some kind of reasoned and documented scoring bonus
in the feeder classes for using smaller aircraft?
On 09/07/16 12:07, Scott McHarg via NSRCA-discussion wrote:
> Mike's right.? It won't work because a few can afford the 2M modern planes
> and if one can have it, they all must have it.
>
> *Scott A. McHarg*
> VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot
> Texas A&M University
> PPL - ASEL
> Remote Pilot Certified Under FAA Part 107
>
> On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 3:04 PM, Dr. Mike Harrison via NSRCA-discussion <
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>
>> You are correct but human nature gets in the way.? Making a rule to limit
>> this fixes a lot of issues. These smaller planes fly very well.? Got to
>> create rules that perpetuate less expense and less difficulty, just being
>> voluntary is not gonna work.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Matthew Finley [mailto:rcfin02 at msn.com]
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 7, 2016 2:28 PM
>> *To:* Dr. Mike Harrison >; General pattern
>> discussion >; 'Scott McHarg' <
>> scmcharg at gmail.com>
>> *Subject:* RE: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
>>
>>
>>
>> My thoughts are this, and only in my opinion.... I have the choice to fly
>> any aircraft I choose in any class I choose as long as it is under 11
>> pounds, and no larger than 2 meter ( that's also pretty loose, as I have
>> never seen a scale taken out at a regular meet for 13 years or more). If
>> someone wants to go out and buy a 6s or 8s capable aerobatic bird, and
fly
>> Sportsman, Intermesiate, Advanced, masters, or even FAI with it, go for
it.
>> We all know that it will be smaller thus harder to judge, maneuvers will
be
>> smaller, and etc.... But they are not required to have a 2 meter ship. I
>> don't see why a rule change has to be implemented in those regards as
that
>> is the way it is now ??
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Matthew E Finley
>>
>> Q.C.I Technical Assistant
>>
>> 248-794-8487 mobile
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -------- Original message --------
>>
>> From: "Dr. Mike Harrison via NSRCA-discussion" <
>> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>
>> Date: 9/7/16 2:38 PM (GMT-05:00)
>>
>> To: 'Scott McHarg' >, 'General pattern discussion' <
>> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
>>
>>
>>
>> I am hesitant to get in this discussion but I want to express that I
>> believe we are in significant decline and I opine that it is because of
the
>> expense, complexity and difficulty of flying and competing.? The
>> fundamental reason, I believe, is the cost, complexity and burden of time
>> to simply use the current aircraft.? I have drafted but not submitted a
>> rules change to affect that issue.
>>
>> Fundamentally, I submit that the beginning classes be restricted to
>> smaller aircraft with limitations of powerplant sizes.
>>
>> The existing current pilots flying in those classes have their current
>> aircraft grandfathered in.
>>
>> These classes would be sportsman, intermediate, and advanced.
>>
>>
>>
>> If you would research the cost of aircraft w 22volt systems vs our
current
>> systems you will find the cost of smaller aircraft to be ? to 1/3 the
cost
>> of the current 2m plane.
>>
>>
>>
>> The vast majority of parents will not spend $4000-5000 for their kid to
>> compete a few times in the beginning classes, nor commit a monthly
expense
>> of $200+ or whatever to maintain. And then there is the crash and destroy
>> $1000?s in one aircraft.? Even adults won?t commit to that kind of
expense
>> themselves.
>>
>>
>>
>> There is more to this but that is the basic underlying cause of the
>> disease.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>> >] *On Behalf Of *Scott McHarg
>> via NSRCA-discussion
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 7, 2016 9:49 AM
>> *To:* tretas513 at yahoo.com; General pattern discussion <
>> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
>>
>>
>>
>> Mr. Lukas and I were having an offline conversation.? We were discussing
>> why the new guys aren't getting into pattern.? The question, essentially,
>> was what's the difference between those getting into other facets vs.
>> pattern.? This is my opinion and will be part of my article this month in
>> the K-Factor:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The answer I'm about to give you makes it sound like all is lost.? I
don't
>> believe it is (which is why we came up with the Club sequence) but let's
>> just stick to what we know and what is obvious from the assumption
>> standpoint for a moment.
>>
>>
>>
>> The answer to your question can be one word only or it can be a million
>> adjectives of the same word.? That word is "cool".? The kids coming up
want
>> instant gratification, want to be cool, want notoriety, want to be
thought
>> of as the kid who can show off the best.? You simply can't do that with
>> pattern.? Have you watched the fingers of these kids that fly 3D at Joe
>> Nall or IRCHA?? They're slamming sticks.? Then, watch the planes /
>> helicopters and see how much of the stick movement actually equates to
>> control over the aircraft.? Half of the time is spent simply recovering
>> from mistakes.? :)
>>
>>
>>
>> For some reason, the world has changed into a Social Media frenzy.? Kids
>> feel like they're missing out if we as parents threaten to take away
their
>> phones as punishment.? Kids don't need to go outside to talk to friends
>> because they can do it on the couch with their phones.? They want instant
>> gratification and instant knowledge.? Most of the time, their friends
know
>> what's going on before other people at the event know because of this.
>>
>>
>>
>> Pattern is nothing like this mentality at all.? Pattern takes a lot of
>> practice (as you know) and patience and set up and checking to make sure
>> everything is perfect.? Practicing is boring unless you're doing it.
>> There's no "wow factor".? In my opinion, THIS is what we're battling.? In
>> pattern, you actually have to fly the aircraft perfectly.? There's no
gyro
>> to make you look better (Quads, Helicopters and Drones), there's not that
>> much of an adrenaline rush (until you're in front of the judges) and
>> there's no screen to stare at like in FPV racing.? Pattern is an art and
it
>> takes that special person, the guy that wants to be artistic, to be a
>> pattern pilot.? Our costs are high for the best of the best which all of
>> these kids want.? They don't want a 1980 Super Kaos to learn the skills
>> required.? In almost all other facets, you can have quite good equipment,
>> that is accepted by their peers, for a lot less than what it would take
to
>> have a "not bottom of the line" pattern plane.
>>
>>
>> *Scott A. McHarg*
>>
>> VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot
>>
>> Texas A&M University
>>
>> PPL - ASEL
>>
>> Remote Pilot Certified Under FAA Part 107
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 9:40 AM, tretas513--- via NSRCA-discussion <
>> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>>
>> Most pattern fliers know why pattern is declining but won't admit
it...too
>> much expense,? too much time invested for practice and traveling, and in
my
>> opinion (and a lot of others) turnaround sucks !
>>
>> Flying airplanes and competing is supposed to be fun...it used to
>> be...still is in SPA !!
>>
>> My entire SPA airplane ready to fly costs half what the engine in my 2
>> meter cost and most SPA contests are one day meets...no motels !!
>>
>> Disclaimer: just my opinion !!
>>
>>
>>
>> *Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE Smartphone*
>>
>>
>>
>> ------ Original message------
>>
>> *From: *Whodaddy Whodaddy via NSRCA-discussion
>>
>> *Date: *Wed, Sep 7, 2016 8:40 AM
>>
>> *To: *Jas S;
>>
>> *Cc: *General pattern discussion;
>>
>> *Subject:*Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
>>
>>
>>
>> ?
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
>> On Sep 6, 2016, at 9:11 PM, Jas S > wrote:
>>
>> Isn't that like hearing a Masters pilot say the roll on the top of a loop
>> shouldn't be in Masters lol. Love ya Gary
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Whodaddy Whodaddy via NSRCA-discussion <
>> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>>
>> Sportsman isnt easy enough ????
>>
>>
>>
>> Not sure how it could get more basic ..
>>
>>
>>
>> But wat ever works lord knows we need something to attract new blood or
>> bring old blood back...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> G
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
>> On Sep 6, 2016, at 1:00 PM, Scott McHarg via NSRCA-discussion <
>> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>>
>> All,
>>
>>
>>
>> This is a note from Jon Carter from the NSRCA BoD.? FYI!
>>
>>
>>
>> Announcing the NSRCA ?Club Class!
>>
>> Whether you want to call it Club class or Novice class or whatever, it?s
>> OK, as long as we get more people flying pattern! What is this? Good
>> question, we have heard from the membership that it wou
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------------------------------
Message: 17
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 20:34:27 -0400
From: "Ron Hansen" <rcpilot at wowway.com>
To: "'KEVIN DUNCAN'" <duncanbp at msn.com>, "'General pattern
discussion'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision
Aerobatics
Message-ID: <01e301d20968$c1887500$44995f00$@wowway.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
I?ve been out of town but have read many of the post on this.
I started flying pattern about 12 years ago with an ultimate kaos.
An ultimate kaos is still highly competitive in sportsman but very few
pilots understand that or want to compete with something like that.
I jumped to Intermediate after one year in sportsman and spent 5 or so years
in intermediate and have been in advanced for about 5 or so too.
I may never make the jump to Masters (not by choice but by ability).
I don?t think a new class is the answer.
If everyone things sportsman is too hard of an entry class then why don?t we
drop sportsman and replace it with club class after all, sportsman, is not a
NATS class event anyway.
The new sportsman would not be judged and every contestant would get a
participation ribbon or plaque.
Judges would just provide positive feedback and encouragement.
In D4 we only have 1 or 2 sportsman at each contest and most are +50 years
old (George Gordon you can buy me dinner for saying thatJ).
There are 100s of potential advanced pilots that could kick my butt but they
just don?t have the interest in competing, don?t like the pattern style of
flying, can?t afford it at any level or all of the above.
So my point is there are plenty of potential pattern flyers out there that
are way too good to start out in club class or sportsman. The question
should be why don?t these highly competent 3D type flyers want to give
pattern or IMAC for that matter a try?
If you can answer that question then you have the solution to the dwindling
pattern and IMAC participation.
My 2 cents.
Ron Hansen
From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On
Behalf Of KEVIN DUNCAN via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2016 6:36 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
Back in March 2016, I submitted an article in K-Factor addressing this
issue. You'll find it under District 7. It may be of interest for you all
to go back and re-read it. After getting to know the Classic Pattern
Association guys here on the west coast, I felt that we could possibly
incorporate the CPA into our lower classes of pattern.
Curious to know your all's opinion on that since we're already discussing
our ideas here.
Kevin
Kevin Duncan duncanbp at msn.com
_____
From: NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> on behalf
of Anthony Romano via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 7, 2016 2:52 PM
To: Tom Simes; Tom Simes via NSRCA-discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
Remember the effect of the 2% biplane bonus at TOC. Everyone flew a biplane
after that.
Also remember TOC started as a pattern contest but wasn't exciting enough.
At least a score bonus gives a pilot a chance and wouldn't be a very
difficult experiment for us.
To steal a line from Mike"we have to do something even if it is wrong."
Lots of complaining hasn't gotten us anywhere.
Anthony
Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 4:15 PM -0400, "Tom Simes via NSRCA-discussion"
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
What about offering some kind of reasoned and documented scoring bonus
in the feeder classes for using smaller aircraft?
On 09/07/16 12:07, Scott McHarg via NSRCA-discussion wrote:
> Mike's right. It won't work because a few can afford the 2M modern planes
> and if one can have it, they all must have it.
>
> *Scott A. McHarg*
> VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot
> Texas A&M University
> PPL - ASEL
> Remote Pilot Certified Under FAA Part 107
>
> On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 3:04 PM, Dr. Mike Harrison via NSRCA-discussion <
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>
>> You are correct but human nature gets in the way. Making a rule to limit
>> this fixes a lot of issues. These smaller planes fly very well. Got to
>> create rules that perpetuate less expense and less difficulty, just being
>> voluntary is not gonna work.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Matthew Finley [mailto:rcfin02 at msn.com]
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 7, 2016 2:28 PM
>> *To:* Dr. Mike Harrison <drmikedds at sbcglobal.net>; General pattern
>> discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>; 'Scott McHarg' <
>> scmcharg at gmail.com>
>> *Subject:* RE: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
>>
>>
>>
>> My thoughts are this, and only in my opinion.... I have the choice to fly
>> any aircraft I choose in any class I choose as long as it is under 11
>> pounds, and no larger than 2 meter ( that's also pretty loose, as I have
>> never seen a scale taken out at a regular meet for 13 years or more). If
>> someone wants to go out and buy a 6s or 8s capable aerobatic bird, and
fly
>> Sportsman, Intermesiate, Advanced, masters, or even FAI with it, go for
it.
>> We all know that it will be smaller thus harder to judge, maneuvers will
be
>> smaller, and etc.... But they are not required to have a 2 meter ship. I
>> don't see why a rule change has to be implemented in those regards as
that
>> is the way it is now ??
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Matthew E Finley
>>
>> Q.C.I Technical Assistant
>>
>> 248-794-8487 mobile
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -------- Original message --------
>>
>> From: "Dr. Mike Harrison via NSRCA-discussion" <
>> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>
>> Date: 9/7/16 2:38 PM (GMT-05:00)
>>
>> To: 'Scott McHarg' <scmcharg at gmail.com>, 'General pattern discussion' <
>> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
>>
>>
>>
>> I am hesitant to get in this discussion but I want to express that I
>> believe we are in significant decline and I opine that it is because of
the
>> expense, complexity and difficulty of flying and competing. The
>> fundamental reason, I believe, is the cost, complexity and burden of time
>> to simply use the current aircraft. I have drafted but not submitted a
>> rules change to affect that issue.
>>
>> Fundamentally, I submit that the beginning classes be restricted to
>> smaller aircraft with limitations of powerplant sizes.
>>
>> The existing current pilots flying in those classes have their current
>> aircraft grandfathered in.
>>
>> These classes would be sportsman, intermediate, and advanced.
>>
>>
>>
>> If you would research the cost of aircraft w 22volt systems vs our
current
>> systems you will find the cost of smaller aircraft to be ? to 1/3 the
cost
>> of the current 2m plane.
>>
>>
>>
>> The vast majority of parents will not spend $4000-5000 for their kid to
>> compete a few times in the beginning classes, nor commit a monthly
expense
>> of $200+ or whatever to maintain. And then there is the crash and destroy
>> $1000?s in one aircraft. Even adults won?t commit to that kind of
expense
>> themselves.
>>
>>
>>
>> There is more to this but that is the basic underlying cause of the
>> disease.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org%0b%3e%3e%20%3cnsrca-discuss
ion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org%3e>
>> <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>] *On Behalf Of *Scott McHarg
>> via NSRCA-discussion
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 7, 2016 9:49 AM
>> *To:* tretas513 at yahoo.com; General pattern discussion <
>> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
>>
>>
>>
>> Mr. Lukas and I were having an offline conversation. We were discussing
>> why the new guys aren't getting into pattern. The question, essentially,
>> was what's the difference between those getting into other facets vs.
>> pattern. This is my opinion and will be part of my article this month in
>> the K-Factor:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The answer I'm about to give you makes it sound like all is lost. I
don't
>> believe it is (which is why we came up with the Club sequence) but let's
>> just stick to what we know and what is obvious from the assumption
>> standpoint for a moment.
>>
>>
>>
>> The answer to your question can be one word only or it can be a million
>> adjectives of the same word. That word is "cool". The kids coming up
want
>> instant gratification, want to be cool, want notoriety, want to be
thought
>> of as the kid who can show off the best. You simply can't do that with
>> pattern. Have you watched the fingers of these kids that fly 3D at Joe
>> Nall or IRCHA? They're slamming sticks. Then, watch the planes /
>> helicopters and see how much of the stick movement actually equates to
>> control over the aircraft. Half of the time is spent simply recovering
>> from mistakes. :)
>>
>>
>>
>> For some reason, the world has changed into a Social Media frenzy. Kids
>> feel like they're missing out if we as parents threaten to take away
their
>> phones as punishment. Kids don't need to go outside to talk to friends
>> because they can do it on the couch with their phones. They want instant
>> gratification and instant knowledge. Most of the time, their friends
know
>> what's going on before other people at the event know because of this.
>>
>>
>>
>> Pattern is nothing like this mentality at all. Pattern takes a lot of
>> practice (as you know) and patience and set up and checking to make sure
>> everything is perfect. Practicing is boring unless you're doing it.
>> There's no "wow factor". In my opinion, THIS is what we're battling. In
>> pattern, you actually have to fly the aircraft perfectly. There's no
gyro
>> to make you look better (Quads, Helicopters and Drones), there's not that
>> much of an adrenaline rush (until you're in front of the judges) and
>> there's no screen to stare at like in FPV racing. Pattern is an art and
it
>> takes that special person, the guy that wants to be artistic, to be a
>> pattern pilot. Our costs are high for the best of the best which all of
>> these kids want. They don't want a 1980 Super Kaos to learn the skills
>> required. In almost all other facets, you can have quite good equipment,
>> that is accepted by their peers, for a lot less than what it would take
to
>> have a "not bottom of the line" pattern plane.
>>
>>
>> *Scott A. McHarg*
>>
>> VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot
>>
>> Texas A&M University
>>
>> PPL - ASEL
>>
>> Remote Pilot Certified Under FAA Part 107
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 9:40 AM, tretas513--- via NSRCA-discussion <
>> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>>
>> Most pattern fliers know why pattern is declining but won't admit
it...too
>> much expense, too much time invested for practice and traveling, and in
my
>> opinion (and a lot of others) turnaround sucks !
>>
>> Flying airplanes and competing is supposed to be fun...it used to
>> be...still is in SPA !!
>>
>> My entire SPA airplane ready to fly costs half what the engine in my 2
>> meter cost and most SPA contests are one day meets...no motels !!
>>
>> Disclaimer: just my opinion !!
>>
>>
>>
>> *Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE Smartphone*
>>
>>
>>
>> ------ Original message------
>>
>> *From: *Whodaddy Whodaddy via NSRCA-discussion
>>
>> *Date: *Wed, Sep 7, 2016 8:40 AM
>>
>> *To: *Jas S;
>>
>> *Cc: *General pattern discussion;
>>
>> *Subject:*Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
>>
>>
>>
>> ?
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
>> On Sep 6, 2016, at 9:11 PM, Jas S <justanotherflyr at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Isn't that like hearing a Masters pilot say the roll on the top of a loop
>> shouldn't be in Masters lol. Love ya Gary
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Whodaddy Whodaddy via NSRCA-discussion <
>> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>>
>> Sportsman isnt easy enough ????
>>
>>
>>
>> Not sure how it could get more basic ..
>>
>>
>>
>> But wat ever works lord knows we need something to attract new blood or
>> bring old blood back...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> G
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
>> On Sep 6, 2016, at 1:00 PM, Scott McHarg via NSRCA-discussion <
>> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>>
>> All,
>>
>>
>>
>> This is a note from Jon Carter from the NSRCA BoD. FYI!
>>
>>
>>
>> Announcing the NSRCA ?Club Class!
>>
>> Whether you want to call it Club class or Novice class or whatever, it?s
>> OK, as long as we get more people flying pattern! What is this? Good
>> question, we have heard from the membership that it would be nice for the
>> NSRCA to define a non-rulebook pattern entry level event that a CD could
>> offer if they so decided. This would be a non-turnaround ?old-school?
type
>> of pattern that any club flyer could do and yet still be challenged by.
It
>> will give the CD the opportunity to grab some of the ?hot dog? type sport
>> flyers at his club, and maybe some old time pattern pilots, and hand them
a
>> maneuver/downgrade sheet and say ?come on out to the pattern contest next
>> weekend and see what you can do!? Who knows, if he can get three or four
>> club flyers to come out maybe some will think, ?Hey, this is fun! I could
>> learn that Sportsman pattern? Worst case it will get some more club
flyers
>> to participate in local events which always makes it easier to ?sell? a
>> pattern contest to the local club officers! So, dust off those older
>> pattern planes and those sport planes and come out and have some fun!
Look
>> on the NSRCA website under the Sequence tab for the maneuver list and
>> descriptions.
>>
>> https://nsrca.us/index.php/sequences
>>
>>
>>
>> *Scott A. McHarg*
>>
>> VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot
>>
>> Texas A&M University
>>
>> PPL - ASEL
>>
>> Remote Pilot Certified Under FAA Part 107
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Jason
>> http://jasonshangar.weebly.com/
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
--
Tom
======================================================================
"Z80 system stack overflow. Shut 'er down Scotty, she's
sucking mud again!" - Error message on XENIX v3.0
Tom Simes simestd at netexpress.com
======================================================================
_______________________________________________
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Message: 18
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 21:09:47 -0400
From: "Dave Lockhart" <davel322 at comcast.net>
To: "'General pattern discussion'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision
Aerobatics
Message-ID: <031201d2096d$b69578a0$23c069e0$@comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Random thoughts and comments ?
Changing to 1 loop and 1 roll would be improvements.
No cash.
Suggest ? Reverse Cuban Eights and Stall Turns as appropriate turnarounds,
but no enforcement of the box. The box IS intimidating and simply flying
aerobatic maneuvers centered is challenging for many very competent sport
pilots?..heck?.flying a straight line is challenging for many competent
sport pilots.
Instant gratification is one of the biggest challenges we face in recruiting
new pattern pilots ? and it is not just the kids that want instant
gratification?.many of those ?kids? are now in their late 20s and older.
The perceived cost is a legitimate problem?.and actual cost is a legitimate
problem. However, the highest level of competition equipment will always be
expensive (at any size) and in general is more expensive as it gets bigger.
And the top dog setup is what will always be viewed by outsiders as the
level of equipment needed. Cost is an excuse for a few?..it is an excuse
because instead of flying pattern, they are flying giant scale 3D and
turbines that cost 1 ? 4 times as much as pattern planes.
As Mark Atwood said?.most people in a given sport or hobby do not enter
competitions. It is because of pressure, it is because of lack of practice
time, and it is because of ego?..plenty of hot shot pilots don?t want to put
themselves in a position where they don?t win and can?t claim to be the
best.
Limiting the size, weight, cost, power, etc, of the entry level class sounds
great?but it is counter-productive. We want the guy flying a DLE 30 cc 3D
plane?.we want the guy flying a 10S 78? Extra?.we want the guy that picked
up an old 120 4C pattern plane because it had cool retracts?..lots of those
planes are in the hands of potential pattern pilots and we do not want to
exclude them. The entry level class should be ?run what you brung? so long
as the noise level is reasonable and safety concerns do not arise. It is
also counter-productive because hand me down planes are not available.
The Club Class as is, in maneuver content, is not unlike Sportsman, Novice,
Pre-Novice, etc?..sequences used in the past. Part of what was wrong with
those sequences in the past was that at some point they were treated as a
FULL class and not as ENTRY level or INTRODUCTION level. And they were
continually mucked with?.needlessly adding variety (to entertain the upper
classes who were bored watching the same old thing), and generally adding
complexity (difficulty creep) making the bar to entry higher. The entry
level or introduction class should not be flown at the NATs, not have a
District Champion, and should be 1 day only. At two day events, each day is
a separate contest for the Club Class ? this reduces the time commitment and
takes away the excuse of not being able to make it both days. Club class
should be a class virtually every club member working the grill, working
registration, scribing, or running scores could fly in with half the planes
they have in their car or at t
heir house.
Regards,
Dave
From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On
Behalf Of Scott McHarg via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2016 2:01 PM
To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
All,
This is a note from Jon Carter from the NSRCA BoD. FYI!
Announcing the NSRCA ?Club Class!
Whether you want to call it Club class or Novice class or whatever, it?s OK,
as long as we get more people flying pattern! What is this? Good question,
we have heard from the membership that it would be nice for the NSRCA to
define a non-rulebook pattern entry level event that a CD could offer if
they so decided. This would be a non-turnaround ?old-school? type of pattern
that any club flyer could do and yet still be challenged by. It will give
the CD the opportunity to grab some of the ?hot dog? type sport flyers at
his club, and maybe some old time pattern pilots, and hand them a
maneuver/downgrade sheet and say ?come on out to the pattern contest next
weekend and see what you can do!? Who knows, if he can get three or four
club flyers to come out maybe some will think, ?Hey, this is fun! I could
learn that Sportsman pattern? Worst case it will get some more club flyers
to participate in local events which always makes it easier to ?sell? a
pattern contest to the local club officer
s! So, dust off those older pattern planes and those sport planes and come
out and have some fun! Look on the NSRCA website under the Sequence tab for
the maneuver list and descriptions.
<https://nsrca.us/index.php/sequences> https://nsrca.us/index.php/sequences
Scott A. McHarg
VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot
Texas A&M University
PPL - ASEL
Remote Pilot Certified Under FAA Part 107
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Message: 19
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 21:24:37 -0400
From: "Jay Gerber" <jaysgerber at earthlink.net>
To: "'General pattern discussion'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Planes for sale
Message-ID: <002401d2096f$c3a891b0$4af9b510$@net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
More stuff for sale: Email me for pics and information?..
I have some excellent condition fun and pattern planes for sale if anyone is
interested and I have shipping crates if necessary.
If interested contact me directly and I will send you the details?cost,
equipment, etc?.They are all ?Ready to Fly? with Futaba receivers, Hacker
C50/14xl Comp, Jeti 99 Opto ESC or Hacker A50 ver 2.1 Castle 85 Ice2 for
example and standard motors..etc? as an FYI?ALL ELECTRIC?..
1. 50? Element by the now extinct Fliton Company?.see pic?FAI or 3D
capable I have 3 (one just sold) of them as they are Precision capable or 3D
fun ships?all are in mint condition.
2. Integral #1?.original ship, least expensive of the 2 mtr group
3. Integral #2?.previous owner Riley Kissenberth at the NATS previously
and worked with his dad George to purchase the ship awhile ago?..excellent
flyer and condition
4. Spark Dynamic originally owned by David Snow..loaded with all new gear
and flies great?.
5. Osiris 60? version?A50 version 2.1,Hacker. and more?.
6. In addition, motor?.Axi 5320/28? pristine condition
As an FYI, because of medical reasons, I cannot fly anymore and am selling
off everything related to this wonderful sport of competition and precision
aerobatics.?..I plan on continuing my membership in the NSRCA as it?s a
super group of talented folks that I love to follow technically and
aerodynamically. Yes?.I love the magazine and download it every month and
read every word in it?.just an FYI? J
Jay Gerber L-48 NSRCA 2252
Cell: 215-805-0685
Email: jaysgerber at earthlink.net
From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On
Behalf Of Derek Koopowitz via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Monday, September 05, 2016 2:41 PM
To: NSRCA List; NSRCA-dist7
Cc: Jon Carter; Frank Capone
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Planes for sale
I need to make room for a new plane that is arriving in a month and that
means I need to part with a couple of my planes.
The first plane is the Toxiris (designed by Gerhard Mayr) ? fully equipped
it has a Plettenberg Advance motor, BLS651?s on elevator (2) and ailerons
(2), BLS155 on rudder, Futaba 6008HS RX, Digiswitch and Jeti Advance 90 ESC.
Cost fully equipped is $2500. Without any equipment the cost is $1500.
This plane flies incredibly well and is in great condition. The following
has a thread about the plane:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/electric-pattern-aircraft-385/10818666-toxir
is-arf.html
The second plane is the Status biplane (designed by Nishioka) ? fully
equipped it has a Hacker Q80 14XS motor, Mezon 90 Lite ESC (with BEC),
BLS173?s on ailerons (4) and elevators (2), BLS175 on rudder, Futaba 7003SB
high voltage RX. Cost fully equipped is $3000. Without any equipment the
cost is $1900. The plane flies incredibly well as well and is in good
condition.
I?d prefer to sell the planes to someone close by the San Francisco Bay Area
in order to avoid having to ship them. If I need to ship them, then we can
negotiate costs on shipping. Shipping boxes would need to be built for the
planes.
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Message: 20
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 21:31:27 -0400
From: "Ron Hansen" <rcpilot at wowway.com>
To: "'Dave Lockhart'" <davel322 at comcast.net>, "'General pattern
discussion'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision
Aerobatics
Message-ID: <01fa01d20970$b839d270$28ad7750$@wowway.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I would like to add a few things about pilot prizes and cash giveaways to
participants at any level.
At our last D4 contest Matt Finley contacted several vendors for pilot
prizes and to my surprise Frank Tiano and a few others I?ve forgotten came
through (sorry for those I forgot).
What happens when we do this kind of thing at every contest and in every
district across the country?
Vendors and local hobby shops are going to stop.
Perhaps district championships and the NATS are fine. Or just once in a
while to spice things up but to do this routinely is suicide.
While I applaud Matt?s efforts I worry this kind of thing will have a
backlash.
Most of the clubs I?ve been members off expect some financial reward for
hosting a events even if it is only a few hundred bucks.
If we start giving that money away to pilots and for other endeavors the
clubs I?m aware of will stop hosting them.
More of my 2 cents.
From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On
Behalf Of Dave Lockhart via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2016 9:10 PM
To: 'General pattern discussion'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
Random thoughts and comments ?
Changing to 1 loop and 1 roll would be improvements.
No cash.
Suggest ? Reverse Cuban Eights and Stall Turns as appropriate turnarounds,
but no enforcement of the box. The box IS intimidating and simply flying
aerobatic maneuvers centered is challenging for many very competent sport
pilots?..heck?.flying a straight line is challenging for many competent
sport pilots.
Instant gratification is one of the biggest challenges we face in recruiting
new pattern pilots ? and it is not just the kids that want instant
gratification?.many of those ?kids? are now in their late 20s and older.
The perceived cost is a legitimate problem?.and actual cost is a legitimate
problem. However, the highest level of competition equipment will always be
expensive (at any size) and in general is more expensive as it gets bigger.
And the top dog setup is what will always be viewed by outsiders as the
level of equipment needed. Cost is an excuse for a few?..it is an excuse
because instead of flying pattern, they are flying giant scale 3D and
turbines that cost 1 ? 4 times as much as pattern planes.
As Mark Atwood said?.most people in a given sport or hobby do not enter
competitions. It is because of pressure, it is because of lack of practice
time, and it is because of ego?..plenty of hot shot pilots don?t want to put
themselves in a position where they don?t win and can?t claim to be the
best.
Limiting the size, weight, cost, power, etc, of the entry level class sounds
great?but it is counter-productive. We want the guy flying a DLE 30 cc 3D
plane?.we want the guy flying a 10S 78? Extra?.we want the guy that picked
up an old 120 4C pattern plane because it had cool retracts?..lots of those
planes are in the hands of potential pattern pilots and we do not want to
exclude them. The entry level class should be ?run what you brung? so long
as the noise level is reasonable and safety concerns do not arise. It is
also counter-productive because hand me down planes are not available.
The Club Class as is, in maneuver content, is not unlike Sportsman, Novice,
Pre-Novice, etc?..sequences used in the past. Part of what was wrong with
those sequences in the past was that at some point they were treated as a
FULL class and not as ENTRY level or INTRODUCTION level. And they were
continually mucked with?.needlessly adding variety (to entertain the upper
classes who were bored watching the same old thing), and generally adding
complexity (difficulty creep) making the bar to entry higher. The entry
level or introduction class should not be flown at the NATs, not have a
District Champion, and should be 1 day only. At two day events, each day is
a separate contest for the Club Class ? this reduces the time commitment and
takes away the excuse of not being able to make it both days. Club class
should be a class virtually every club member working the grill, working
registration, scribing, or running scores could fly in with half the planes
they have in their car or at their house.
Regards,
Dave
From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On
Behalf Of Scott McHarg via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2016 2:01 PM
To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
All,
This is a note from Jon Carter from the NSRCA BoD. FYI!
Announcing the NSRCA ?Club Class!
Whether you want to call it Club class or Novice class or whatever, it?s OK,
as long as we get more people flying pattern! What is this? Good question,
we have heard from the membership that it would be nice for the NSRCA to
define a non-rulebook pattern entry level event that a CD could offer if
they so decided. This would be a non-turnaround ?old-school? type of pattern
that any club flyer could do and yet still be challenged by. It will give
the CD the opportunity to grab some of the ?hot dog? type sport flyers at
his club, and maybe some old time pattern pilots, and hand them a
maneuver/downgrade sheet and say ?come on out to the pattern contest next
weekend and see what you can do!? Who knows, if he can get three or four
club flyers to come out maybe some will think, ?Hey, this is fun! I could
learn that Sportsman pattern? Worst case it will get some more club flyers
to participate in local events which always makes it easier to ?sell? a
pattern contest to the local club officers! So, dust off those older pattern
planes and those sport planes and come out and have some fun! Look on the
NSRCA website under the Sequence tab for the maneuver list and descriptions.
<https://nsrca.us/index.php/sequences> https://nsrca.us/index.php/sequences
Scott A. McHarg
VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot
Texas A&M University
PPL - ASEL
Remote Pilot Certified Under FAA Part 107
__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature
database 14087 (20160907) __________
The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
http://www.eset.com
__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature
database 14087 (20160907) __________
The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
http://www.eset.com
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database 14087 (20160907) __________
The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
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------------------------------
Message: 21
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 01:44:38 +0000
From: "Atwood, Mark" <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>
To: Dave Lockhart <davel322 at comcast.net>, General pattern discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision
Aerobatics
Message-ID: <4515E57A-20AA-4F5E-A4D4-2AC5CB3C01CB at paragon-inc.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
Huge +1
Especially to the last part. One day event, and maneuvers any club guy past
the beginner stage can try.
Sent from my average intelligence phone
On Sep 7, 2016, at 9:12 PM, Dave Lockhart via NSRCA-discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
wrote:
Random thoughts and comments ?
Changing to 1 loop and 1 roll would be improvements.
No cash.
Suggest ? Reverse Cuban Eights and Stall Turns as appropriate turnarounds,
but no enforcement of the box. The box IS intimidating and simply flying
aerobatic maneuvers centered is challenging for many very competent sport
pilots?..heck?.flying a straight line is challenging for many competent
sport pilots.
Instant gratification is one of the biggest challenges we face in recruiting
new pattern pilots ? and it is not just the kids that want instant
gratification?.many of those ?kids? are now in their late 20s and older.
The perceived cost is a legitimate problem?.and actual cost is a legitimate
problem. However, the highest level of competition equipment will always be
expensive (at any size) and in general is more expensive as it gets bigger.
And the top dog setup is what will always be viewed by outsiders as the
level of equipment needed. Cost is an excuse for a few?..it is an excuse
because instead of flying pattern, they are flying giant scale 3D and
turbines that cost 1 ? 4 times as much as pattern planes.
As Mark Atwood said?.most people in a given sport or hobby do not enter
competitions. It is because of pressure, it is because of lack of practice
time, and it is because of ego?..plenty of hot shot pilots don?t want to put
themselves in a position where they don?t win and can?t claim to be the
best.
Limiting the size, weight, cost, power, etc, of the entry level class sounds
great?but it is counter-productive. We want the guy flying a DLE 30 cc 3D
plane?.we want the guy flying a 10S 78? Extra?.we want the guy that picked
up an old 120 4C pattern plane because it had cool retracts?..lots of those
planes are in the hands of potential pattern pilots and we do not want to
exclude them. The entry level class should be ?run what you brung? so long
as the noise level is reasonable and safety concerns do not arise. It is
also counter-productive because hand me down planes are not available.
The Club Class as is, in maneuver content, is not unlike Sportsman, Novice,
Pre-Novice, etc?..sequences used in the past. Part of what was wrong with
those sequences in the past was that at some point they were treated as a
FULL class and not as ENTRY level or INTRODUCTION level. And they were
continually mucked with?.needlessly adding variety (to entertain the upper
classes who were bored watching the same old thing), and generally adding
complexity (difficulty creep) making the bar to entry higher. The entry
level or introduction class should not be flown at the NATs, not have a
District Champion, and should be 1 day only. At two day events, each day is
a separate contest for the Club Class ? this reduces the time commitment and
takes away the excuse of not being able to make it both days. Club class
should be a class virtually every club member working the grill, working
registration, scribing, or running scores could fly in with half the planes
they have in their car or at t
heir house.
Regards,
Dave
From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On
Behalf Of Scott McHarg via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2016 2:01 PM
To: General pattern discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
All,
This is a note from Jon Carter from the NSRCA BoD. FYI!
Announcing the NSRCA ?Club Class!
Whether you want to call it Club class or Novice class or whatever, it?s OK,
as long as we get more people flying pattern! What is this? Good question,
we have heard from the membership that it would be nice for the NSRCA to
define a non-rulebook pattern entry level event that a CD could offer if
they so decided. This would be a non-turnaround ?old-school? type of pattern
that any club flyer could do and yet still be challenged by. It will give
the CD the opportunity to grab some of the ?hot dog? type sport flyers at
his club, and maybe some old time pattern pilots, and hand them a
maneuver/downgrade sheet and say ?come on out to the pattern contest next
weekend and see what you can do!? Who knows, if he can get three or four
club flyers to come out maybe some will think, ?Hey, this is fun! I could
learn that Sportsman pattern? Worst case it will get some more club flyers
to participate in local events which always makes it easier to ?sell? a
pattern contest to the local club officer
s! So, dust off those older pattern planes and those sport planes and come
out and have some fun! Look on the NSRCA website under the Sequence tab for
the maneuver list and descriptions.
https://nsrca.us/index.php/sequences
Scott A. McHarg
VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot
Texas A&M University
PPL - ASEL
Remote Pilot Certified Under FAA Part 107
_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list
NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
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------------------------------
Message: 22
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 00:49:36 -0400
From: W Anthony Abdullah <aabdu at sbcglobal.net>
To: Jay Gerber <jaysgerber at earthlink.net>, General pattern discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Planes for sale
Message-ID: <8898F525-0FA3-4209-AD4B-90E01E8CED8D at sbcglobal.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Jay,
I'm interested in the Spark, how much?
Anthony
Sent from my iPad
On Sep 7, 2016, at 9:24 PM, Jay Gerber via NSRCA-discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> More stuff for sale: Email me for pics and information?..
>
> I have some excellent condition fun and pattern planes for sale if anyone
is interested and I have shipping crates if necessary.
>
> If interested contact me directly and I will send you the details?cost,
equipment, etc?.They are all ?Ready to Fly? with Futaba receivers, Hacker
C50/14xl Comp, Jeti 99 Opto ESC or Hacker A50 ver 2.1 Castle 85 Ice2 for
example and standard motors..etc? as an FYI?ALL ELECTRIC?..
> 1. 50? Element by the now extinct Fliton Company?.see pic?FAI or 3D
capable I have 3 (one just sold) of them as they are Precision capable or 3D
fun ships?all are in mint condition.
> 2. Integral #1?.original ship, least expensive of the 2 mtr group
> 3. Integral #2?.previous owner Riley Kissenberth at the NATS previously
and worked with his dad George to purchase the ship awhile ago?..excellent
flyer and condition
> 4. Spark Dynamic originally owned by David Snow..loaded with all new
gear and flies great?.
> 5. Osiris 60? version?A50 version 2.1,Hacker. and more?.
> 6. In addition, motor?.Axi 5320/28? pristine condition
>
> As an FYI, because of medical reasons, I cannot fly anymore and am selling
off everything related to this wonderful sport of competition and precision
aerobatics.?..I plan on continuing my membership in the NSRCA as it?s a
super group of talented folks that I love to follow technically and
aerodynamically. Yes?.I love the magazine and download it every month and
read every word in it?.just an FYI? J
>
> Jay Gerber L-48 NSRCA 2252
> Cell: 215-805-0685
> Email: jaysgerber at earthlink.net
>
> From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]
On Behalf Of Derek Koopowitz via NSRCA-discussion
> Sent: Monday, September 05, 2016 2:41 PM
> To: NSRCA List; NSRCA-dist7
> Cc: Jon Carter; Frank Capone
> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Planes for sale
>
> I need to make room for a new plane that is arriving in a month and that
means I need to part with a couple of my planes.
>
> The first plane is the Toxiris (designed by Gerhard Mayr) ? fully equipped
it has a Plettenberg Advance motor, BLS651?s on elevator (2) and ailerons
(2), BLS155 on rudder, Futaba 6008HS RX, Digiswitch and Jeti Advance 90 ESC.
Cost fully equipped is $2500. Without any equipment the cost is $1500.
This plane flies incredibly well and is in great condition. The following
has a thread about the plane:
>
>
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/electric-pattern-aircraft-385/10818666-toxir
is-arf.html
>
> The second plane is the Status biplane (designed by Nishioka) ? fully
equipped it has a Hacker Q80 14XS motor, Mezon 90 Lite ESC (with BEC),
BLS173?s on ailerons (4) and elevators (2), BLS175 on rudder, Futaba 7003SB
high voltage RX. Cost fully equipped is $3000. Without any equipment the
cost is $1900. The plane flies incredibly well as well and is in good
condition.
>
> I?d prefer to sell the planes to someone close by the San Francisco Bay
Area in order to avoid having to ship them. If I need to ship them, then we
can negotiate costs on shipping. Shipping boxes would need to be built for
the planes.
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
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------------------------------
Message: 23
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 08:34:53 -0500
From: Scott McHarg <scmcharg at gmail.com>
To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] September K-Factor
Message-ID:
<CALDH1UqvtggVHy6ogOtEmLM74gackk0HO76eYUCHkStxLj8gNQ at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
The September issue of the K-Factor is available. Apologies for the delay.
*Scott A. McHarg*
VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot
Texas A&M University
PPL - ASEL
Remote Pilot Certified Under FAA Part 107
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------------------------------
Message: 24
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 16:33:28 +0000 (UTC)
From: Xavier Mouraux <xaviermouraux at yahoo.com>
To: "Atwood, Mark" <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>, Dave Lockhart
<davel322 at comcast.net>, General pattern discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>, General pattern discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision
Aerobatics
Message-ID: <671706927.1871455.1473352409001 at mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
+100%
From: "Atwood, Mark via NSRCA-discussion"
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
To: Dave Lockhart <davel322 at comcast.net>; General pattern discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 7, 2016 9:44 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
Huge +1
Especially to the last part. ?One day event, and maneuvers any club guy past
the beginner stage can try. ?
Sent from my average intelligence ?phone
On Sep 7, 2016, at 9:12 PM, Dave Lockhart via NSRCA-discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
#yiv7160282156 #yiv7160282156 -- _filtered #yiv7160282156
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#yiv7160282156 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv7160282156
div.yiv7160282156WordSection1 {}#yiv7160282156 Random thoughts and comments
? ? Changing to 1 loop and 1 roll would be improvements. ? No cash. ?
Suggest ? Reverse Cuban Eights and Stall Turns as appropriate turnarounds,
but no enforcement of the box.? The box IS intimidating and simply flying
aerobatic maneuvers centered is challenging for many very competent sport
pilots?..heck?.flying a straight line is challenging for many competent
sport pilots. ? Instant gratification is one of the biggest challenges we
face in recruiting new pattern pilots ? and it is not just the kids that
want instant gratification?.many of those ?kids? are now in their late 20s
and older. ? The perceived cost is a legitimate problem?.and actual cost is
a legitimate problem.? However, the highest level of competition
equipment will always be expensive (at any size) and in general is more
expensive as it gets bigger.? And the top dog setup is what will always be
viewed by outsiders as the level of equipment needed.? Cost is an excuse for
a few?..it is an excuse because instead of flying pattern, they are flying
giant scale 3D and turbines that cost 1 ? 4 times as much as pattern planes.
? As Mark Atwood said?.most people in a given sport or hobby do not enter
competitions.? It is because of pressure, it is because of lack of practice
time, and it is because of ego?..plenty of hot shot pilots don?t want to put
themselves in a position where they don?t win and can?t claim to be the
best. ? Limiting the size, weight, cost, power, etc, of the entry level
class sounds great?but it is counter-productive.? We want the guy flying a
DLE 30 cc 3D plane?.we want the guy flying a 10S 78? Extra?.we want the guy
that picked up an old 120 4C pattern plane because it had cool
retracts?..lots of those planes a
re in the hands of potential pattern pilots and we do not want to exclude
them.? The entry level class should be ?run what you brung? so long as the
noise level is reasonable and safety concerns do not arise.? It is also
counter-productive because hand me down planes are not available. ? The
Club Class as is, in maneuver content, is not unlike Sportsman, Novice,
Pre-Novice, etc?..sequences used in the past.? Part of what was wrong with
those sequences in the past was that at some point they were treated as a
FULL class and not as ENTRY level or INTRODUCTION level.? And they were
continually mucked with?.needlessly adding variety (to entertain the upper
classes who were bored watching the same old thing), and generally adding
complexity (difficulty creep) making the bar to entry higher.? The entry
level or introduction class should not be flown at the NATs, not have a
District Champion, and should be 1 day only.? At two day events, each day is
a separate contest for the Club Class ?
this reduces the time commitment and takes away the excuse of not being
able to make it both days.? Club class should be a class virtually every
club member working the grill, working registration, scribing, or running
scores could fly in with half the planes they have in their car or at their
house. ? Regards,
Dave ? ? ? From: NSRCA-discussion
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Scott McHarg
via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2016 2:01 PM
To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics ? All,
? This is a note from Jon Carter from the NSRCA BoD.? FYI! ? Announcing the
NSRCA ?Club Class! Whether you want to call it Club class or Novice class or
whatever, it?s OK, as long as we get more people flying pattern! What is
this? Good question, we have heard from the membership that it would be nice
for the NSRCA to define a non-rulebook pattern entry level event that a CD
could offer if they so decided. This would be a non-turnaround ?old-school?
type of pattern that any club flyer could do and yet still be challenged by.
It will give the CD the opportunity to grab some of the ?hot dog? type sport
flyers at his club, and maybe some old time pattern pilots, and hand them a
maneuver/downgrade sheet and say ?come on out to the pattern contest next
weekend and see what you can do!? Who knows, if he can get three or four
club flyers to come out maybe some will think, ?Hey, this is fun! I could
learn that Spor
tsman pattern? Worst case it will get some more club flyers to participate
in local events which always makes it easier to ?sell? a pattern contest to
the local club officers! So, dust off those older pattern planes and those
sport planes and come out and have some fun! Look on the NSRCA website under
the Sequence tab for the maneuver list and descriptions.
https://nsrca.us/index.php/sequences ? Scott A. McHarg VSCL / CANVASS
U.A.S. Research Pilot Texas A&M University PPL - ASEL Remote Pilot Certified
Under FAA Part 107
_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list
NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list
NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
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------------------------------
Message: 25
Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 16:33:28 +0000 (UTC)
From: Xavier Mouraux <xaviermouraux at yahoo.com>
To: "Atwood, Mark" <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>, Dave Lockhart
<davel322 at comcast.net>, General pattern discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>, General pattern discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision
Aerobatics
Message-ID: <671706927.1871455.1473352409001 at mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
+100%
From: "Atwood, Mark via NSRCA-discussion"
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
To: Dave Lockhart <davel322 at comcast.net>; General pattern discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 7, 2016 9:44 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
Huge +1
Especially to the last part. ?One day event, and maneuvers any club guy past
the beginner stage can try. ?
Sent from my average intelligence ?phone
On Sep 7, 2016, at 9:12 PM, Dave Lockhart via NSRCA-discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
#yiv7160282156 #yiv7160282156 -- _filtered #yiv7160282156
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#yiv7160282156 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv7160282156
div.yiv7160282156WordSection1 {}#yiv7160282156 Random thoughts and comments
? ? Changing to 1 loop and 1 roll would be improvements. ? No cash. ?
Suggest ? Reverse Cuban Eights and Stall Turns as appropriate turnarounds,
but no enforcement of the box.? The box IS intimidating and simply flying
aerobatic maneuvers centered is challenging for many very competent sport
pilots?..heck?.flying a straight line is challenging for many competent
sport pilots. ? Instant gratification is one of the biggest challenges we
face in recruiting new pattern pilots ? and it is not just the kids that
want instant gratification?.many of those ?kids? are now in their late 20s
and older. ? The perceived cost is a legitimate problem?.and actual cost is
a legitimate problem.? However, the highest level of competition
equipment will always be expensive (at any size) and in general is more
expensive as it gets bigger.? And the top dog setup is what will always be
viewed by outsiders as the level of equipment needed.? Cost is an excuse for
a few?..it is an excuse because instead of flying pattern, they are flying
giant scale 3D and turbines that cost 1 ? 4 times as much as pattern planes.
? As Mark Atwood said?.most people in a given sport or hobby do not enter
competitions.? It is because of pressure, it is because of lack of practice
time, and it is because of ego?..plenty of hot shot pilots don?t want to put
themselves in a position where they don?t win and can?t claim to be the
best. ? Limiting the size, weight, cost, power, etc, of the entry level
class sounds great?but it is counter-productive.? We want the guy flying a
DLE 30 cc 3D plane?.we want the guy flying a 10S 78? Extra?.we want the guy
that picked up an old 120 4C pattern plane because it had cool
retracts?..lots of those planes a
re in the hands of potential pattern pilots and we do not want to exclude
them.? The entry level class should be ?run what you brung? so long as the
noise level is reasonable and safety concerns do not arise.? It is also
counter-productive because hand me down planes are not available. ? The
Club Class as is, in maneuver content, is not unlike Sportsman, Novice,
Pre-Novice, etc?..sequences used in the past.? Part of what was wrong with
those sequences in the past was that at some point they were treated as a
FULL class and not as ENTRY level or INTRODUCTION level.? And they were
continually mucked with?.needlessly adding variety (to entertain the upper
classes who were bored watching the same old thing), and generally adding
complexity (difficulty creep) making the bar to entry higher.? The entry
level or introduction class should not be flown at the NATs, not have a
District Champion, and should be 1 day only.? At two day events, each day is
a separate contest for the Club Class ?
this reduces the time commitment and takes away the excuse of not being
able to make it both days.? Club class should be a class virtually every
club member working the grill, working registration, scribing, or running
scores could fly in with half the planes they have in their car or at their
house. ? Regards,
Dave ? ? ? From: NSRCA-discussion
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Scott McHarg
via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2016 2:01 PM
To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics ? All,
? This is a note from Jon Carter from the NSRCA BoD.? FYI! ? Announcing the
NSRCA ?Club Class! Whether you want to call it Club class or Novice class or
whatever, it?s OK, as long as we get more people flying pattern! What is
this? Good question, we have heard from the membership that it would be nice
for the NSRCA to define a non-rulebook pattern entry level event that a CD
could offer if they so decided. This would be a non-turnaround ?old-school?
type of pattern that any club flyer could do and yet still be challenged by.
It will give the CD the opportunity to grab some of the ?hot dog? type sport
flyers at his club, and maybe some old time pattern pilots, and hand them a
maneuver/downgrade sheet and say ?come on out to the pattern contest next
weekend and see what you can do!? Who knows, if he can get three or four
club flyers to come out maybe some will think, ?Hey, this is fun! I could
learn that Spor
tsman pattern? Worst case it will get some more club flyers to participate
in local events which always makes it easier to ?sell? a pattern contest to
the local club officers! So, dust off those older pattern planes and those
sport planes and come out and have some fun! Look on the NSRCA website under
the Sequence tab for the maneuver list and descriptions.
https://nsrca.us/index.php/sequences ? Scott A. McHarg VSCL / CANVASS
U.A.S. Research Pilot Texas A&M University PPL - ASEL Remote Pilot Certified
Under FAA Part 107
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