[NSRCA-discussion] FW: New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics

Sun Sep 11 04:40:26 AKDT 2016

Well I'm one of the club instructors, and that's what I do when I'm teaching someone, they are becoming pattern pilots with out even knowing they are.

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From: Jay Gerber <jaysgerber at earthlink.net>
Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2016 1:29 AM
To: 'Randy Forbus'; 'General pattern discussion'
Subject: RE: [NSRCA-discussion] FW: New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics

Randy, just curious…how many “new” pilots get to “solo” and become RC flyers in this 300 strong club and….who are the instructors????  Point in issue…forget about the IMAC guys, become an instructor in the club and teach “new” pilots how to fly and incorporate some basics of flying so that they have precision control of their plane…many trainers will do that without a problem…fly straight and level, do a nice roll…..with them understanding that precision aerobatics is the best way to learn to fly….it’s called PR with a purpose.

Just some more rambling on my part…sorry about that.

Jay

From: Randy Forbus [mailto:Rforbus at hotmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2016 4:48 PM
To: Jay Gerber; General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FW: New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics

I agree, finding new blood so to speak is hard to do, the club I belong too  we are 300 strong, lots of ex pattern guys that do IMAC now which is ok.  Only 5 or 6 of us do the pattern thing, trust me we know how hard it is to recruit new people, been trying to get the the guys in IMAC back into pattern.

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From: NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>> on behalf of Jay Gerber via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2016 7:22 PM
To: 'General pattern discussion'
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] FW: New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics

To All:  (For whatever it’s worth…some thoughts about the recent heated discussion)

I’m one of those old guy masters junkies who has been described in almost every blurb on this list….Let me venture into the discussion as I am passionate about the future and survival of Precision Aerobatics.  Aside from the note to the list to sell some of my planes in the middle of this heated discussion….I did make an earlier comment regarding the effectiveness of an event like the RCWC championships to foster the interest of new blood in pattern…no one seemed to jump on that band wagon and all I’ve heard in discussion was…the cost of equipment, the difficulty of the schedules, how to convert “stick bangers” to pattern…not one word about growing the hobby and teaching precision aerobatics from the early days of learning to fly.

Point in issue…I mentored a young man in our local club who was a competent flyer…3D stick banger as I call them with the question, would he like to learn how to do Precision Aerobatics…after some demonstration, this question was met with enthusiasm and I offered to give him a Giles 202 (bought by me from Ron Chidgey years ago) if he decided to compete…..lesson one….”Austin”…fly a straight line from point A to point B and then back again….he could not do it…this went on until he gave up and bought a used 40% biplane from a deceased member, ripped the tail off “stick banging”…I helped him repair it….and gave up on flying a straight line.

Point in issue again….it’s really hard to take an existing flyer and “convert” them to Precision Aerobatics, depending on age for lots of reasons everyone has mentioned….it would be easier (no matter how hard) to find new blood that want to learn to fly and lead them into the  world of PA.  Tough of course….but I feel fruitful in the long run, case in point at the 71 RCWC event…Mark Radcliff AMA district 3 VP is very vocal about the fact that he saw pattern flying and decided he wanted to learn “that” in general…just “to fly”…he eventually became a member of the FAI international competition team (don’t remember the year)….”no matter what the pattern is”….that can always be adjusted to the situation for everyone. The plane they fly with can be adjusted to the budget and likes of the flyer what can’t be adjusted easily is their desire and determination to learn a new skill when there is so much else for them to do that’s both fun, easier than PA and challenging at the same time….aka…stick banging…...now sadly, FPV quadcopters competition.

I was devastated when my “Austin” decided that he didn’t want to worry about learning how to fly in a straight line…..

OK…at 84 ¾…I’ve done my Precision Aerobatics…Andy was over here to buy some stuff yesterday and we talked about the Aeroguidance Society 60th contest and my winning in the 90’s in the Advanced category, interestingly I had the computer score sheet readout and there were 22 pilots in that category alone…Dave Lockhart won FAI and George Asteris (my mentor) won Masters…I forget who the Sportsman guy was.  I look at the schedules now and yes they are tougher but it’s all about wanting to learn the skills necessary to do these new maneuvers…..adjusting the schedules in some clever way will not make any difference to anyone as far as I’m concerned (maybe get some old flyers back into PA)….you are catering to those that are already there and not getting new blood into the sport.  As to the schedules, at our club in Sarasota, a new flyer must demonstrate a roll, a loop and a few other things that are simple but this can be adjusted to do that roll in a way as to emulate a good score because it was on line, even and centered….that can easily be taught during the learning process…..we have youngsters that do their check ride and are signed off after 3 or 4 flying sessions….

I remember flying at the Sarasota RC field with George Asteris and we were doing our patterns, Masters and George FAI some years ago….a couple of the club members came up to us and said that was so “pretty” they wanted to learn how to do that…again….PR, PR, PR….and give of yourself to teach.

If you have the attention of “new” possible RCers……teach them to fly, be their buddy, help them improve their skills by gently suggesting certain flight characteristics….”keep the outboard wing level”, etc…..it will take lots of time and work but it will pay off with new blood…..Example…..I remember Don Szczur many years ago and him getting Joseph into it at an early age…issue in point…

Grow them into flying and pattern from the start….the other already RCers will come on board on their own to test their skills….PR, PR, PR…..

Hey, those score sheets from 1992 should be worth something….sort of like the Dead Sea Scrolls… :)

If any of this made sense….I’m happy… :)

Jay

From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Matthew Finley via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2016 4:55 PM
To: W Anthony Abdullah; General pattern discussion; Xavier Mouraux
Cc: Atwood, Mark
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics

+100

Matthew E Finley

Q.C.I Technical Assistant

248-794-8487 mobile

-------- Original message --------

From: W Anthony Abdullah via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>

Date: 9/8/16 4:24 PM (GMT-05:00)

To: Xavier Mouraux <xaviermouraux at yahoo.com<mailto:xaviermouraux at yahoo.com>>, General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>

Cc: "Atwood, Mark" <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com<mailto:atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>>, General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics

Every few years or so we recycle this conversation with the same suggestions made, any on occasion a few rule changes. None of which, by the way, seem to resolve the issue. I wish I had an answer, unfortunately all I can add is a few observations and my opinion.

FWIW here is my .02;

- I often think about the people I used to see all the time at contests, of the ones I used to fly against in intermediate and then advanced, they seemed to thin out either when they got to Masters or just before. As I think of my own ascension, I'm in a bot of a quandary myself. I am a fairly competent advanced pilot, if I practice a few weeks I'm even competitive, but that's about the limit of my natural ability. Don't get me wrong, If I practiced 4 days a week I could fly Masters safely but I'm NEVER going to win.

So here is my reality, fly advanced competently on a decent amount of practice, as a hobby and still enjoy my other interests (there are many) and have a LOT of fun at contests. But feel like a schmuck as people I used to judge in intermediate are nipping at my heels, or worse, dominated by me (the advanced lifer). Or give up everything else I enjoy doing in the summer (fishing, cycling, camping, golf, working out, remodeling my house, movies, nothing), practicing until my fingers bleed, just so I can be competitive and not win. OR just fade away like so many others once they hit the Masters meat grinder.

- As far as keeping down the cost of pattern, I don't think that has ever been the problem. The Piedmont Focus was supposed to have resolved that issue, yet here we are. Boxer Bob Fortino proved that a basic plane and tons of practice was a recipe for success. He was a fixture at contests and even won Advanced at the nats, but faded away once he moved to Masters, hmmmm. I believe our problem is more systemic than that. I think our dwindling numbers are more about a shift in the makeup of society than it is about cost. We are no longer a tough, diligent, determined, competitive culture. We are spoiled and soft as hell. We want immediate gratification and if we don't find immediate success we quit.

So what do we do about it?

- support the hobby and nurture true interest when we see it. Pattern guys are cut from a different cloth, when someone shows interest help them out. I have met great ambassadors for the hobby

- like the NBA, perhaps we should consider contraction. Perhaps 1 contest a month in a district, that way each contest is more of an event like a mini nats. This might also encourage more cross district participation. I know if there were just 4 events a summer I sure as hell wouldn't want to miss one.

- Continue to promote pattern (obviously)

- Selective breeding, the Atwoods (Sean <sp>), Jeskys (Andrew, Robert),  Szczur (Joseph), and Pritchetts (Grayson), seem to be doing a great job. Perhaps pattern pilots are born not made. JK

Long story short, we are prolly going to have to think about this a different way.

Sent from my iPad

On Sep 8, 2016, at 12:33 PM, Xavier Mouraux via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:

+100%

________________________________

From: "Atwood, Mark via NSRCA-discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
To: Dave Lockhart <davel322 at comcast.net<mailto:davel322 at comcast.net>>; General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
Sent: Wednesday, September 7, 2016 9:44 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics

Huge +1

Especially to the last part.  One day event, and maneuvers any club guy past the beginner stage can try.

Sent from my average intelligence  phone

On Sep 7, 2016, at 9:12 PM, Dave Lockhart via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:

Random thoughts and comments –

Changing to 1 loop and 1 roll would be improvements.

No cash.

Suggest ½ Reverse Cuban Eights and Stall Turns as appropriate turnarounds, but no enforcement of the box.  The box IS intimidating and simply flying aerobatic maneuvers centered is challenging for many very competent sport pilots…..heck….flying a straight line is challenging for many competent sport pilots.

Instant gratification is one of the biggest challenges we face in recruiting new pattern pilots – and it is not just the kids that want instant gratification….many of those “kids” are now in their late 20s and older.

The perceived cost is a legitimate problem….and actual cost is a legitimate problem.  However, the highest level of competition equipment will always be expensive (at any size) and in general is more expensive as it gets bigger.  And the top dog setup is what will always be viewed by outsiders as the level of equipment needed.  Cost is an excuse for a few…..it is an excuse because instead of flying pattern, they are flying giant scale 3D and turbines that cost 1 – 4 times as much as pattern planes.

As Mark Atwood said….most people in a given sport or hobby do not enter competitions.  It is because of pressure, it is because of lack of practice time, and it is because of ego…..plenty of hot shot pilots don’t want to put themselves in a position where they don’t win and can’t claim to be the best.

Limiting the size, weight, cost, power, etc, of the entry level class sounds great…but it is counter-productive.  We want the guy flying a DLE 30 cc 3D plane….we want the guy flying a 10S 78” Extra….we want the guy that picked up an old 120 4C pattern plane because it had cool retracts…..lots of those planes are in the hands of potential pattern pilots and we do not want to exclude them.  The entry level class should be “run what you brung” so long as the noise level is reasonable and safety concerns do not arise.  It is also counter-productive because hand me down planes are not available.

The Club Class as is, in maneuver content, is not unlike Sportsman, Novice, Pre-Novice, etc…..sequences used in the past.  Part of what was wrong with those sequences in the past was that at some point they were treated as a FULL class and not as ENTRY level or INTRODUCTION level.  And they were continually mucked with….needlessly adding variety (to entertain the upper classes who were bored watching the same old thing), and generally adding complexity (difficulty creep) making the bar to entry higher.  The entry level or introduction class should not be flown at the NATs, not have a District Champion, and should be 1 day only.  At two day events, each day is a separate contest for the Club Class – this reduces the time commitment and takes away the excuse of not being able to make it both days.  Club class should be a class virtually every club member working the grill, working registration, scribing, or running scores could fly in with half the planes they have in their car or at their house.

Regards,

Dave

From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Scott McHarg via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2016 2:01 PM
To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics

All,

This is a note from Jon Carter from the NSRCA BoD.  FYI!

Announcing the NSRCA “Club Class!

Whether you want to call it Club class or Novice class or whatever, it’s OK, as long as we get more people flying pattern! What is this? Good question, we have heard from the membership that it would be nice for the NSRCA to define a non-rulebook pattern entry level event that a CD could offer if they so decided. This would be a non-turnaround “old-school” type of pattern that any club flyer could do and yet still be challenged by. It will give the CD the opportunity to grab some of the “hot dog” type sport flyers at his club, and maybe some old time pattern pilots, and hand them a maneuver/downgrade sheet and say “come on out to the pattern contest next weekend and see what you can do!” Who knows, if he can get three or four club flyers to come out maybe some will think, “Hey, this is fun! I could learn that Sportsman pattern” Worst case it will get some more club flyers to participate in local events which always makes it easier to “sell” a pattern contest to the local club officers! So, dust off those older pattern planes and those sport planes and come out and have some fun! Look on the NSRCA website under the Sequence tab for the maneuver list and descriptions.

https://nsrca.us/index.php/sequences

Scott A. McHarg

VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot

Texas A&M University

PPL - ASEL

Remote Pilot Certified Under FAA Part 107

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