[NSRCA-discussion] FW: New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics

Sat Sep 10 20:01:07 AKDT 2016

That’s very sound advice: I’m a club instructor and several of my students
did in fact go on to fly Pattern. J

John Pavlick

Cell: 203-417-4971

idslogo2

Integrated Development Services

From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On
Behalf Of Jay Gerber via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2016 9:29 PM
To: 'Randy Forbus'; 'General pattern discussion'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FW: New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics

Randy, just curious
how many “new” pilots get to “solo” and become RC flyers
in this 300 strong club and
.who are the instructors????  Point in
issue
forget about the IMAC guys, become an instructor in the club and teach
“new” pilots how to fly and incorporate some basics of flying so that they
have precision control of their plane
many trainers will do that without a
problem
fly straight and level, do a nice roll
..with them understanding
that precision aerobatics is the best way to learn to fly
.it’s called PR
with a purpose.

Just some more rambling on my part
sorry about that.

Jay

From: Randy Forbus [mailto:Rforbus at hotmail.com] 
Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2016 4:48 PM
To: Jay Gerber; General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FW: New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics

I agree, finding new blood so to speak is hard to do, the club I belong too
we are 300 strong, lots of ex pattern guys that do IMAC now which is ok.
Only 5 or 6 of us do the pattern thing, trust me we know how hard it is to
recruit new people, been trying to get the the guys in IMAC back into
pattern.

  _____  

From: NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> on behalf
of Jay Gerber via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2016 7:22 PM
To: 'General pattern discussion'
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] FW: New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics 

To All:  (For whatever it’s worth
some thoughts about the recent heated
discussion)

I’m one of those old guy masters junkies who has been described in almost
every blurb on this list
.Let me venture into the discussion as I am
passionate about the future and survival of Precision Aerobatics.  Aside
from the note to the list to sell some of my planes in the middle of this
heated discussion
.I did make an earlier comment regarding the effectiveness
of an event like the RCWC championships to foster the interest of new blood
in pattern
no one seemed to jump on that band wagon and all I’ve heard in
discussion was
the cost of equipment, the difficulty of the schedules, how
to convert “stick bangers” to pattern
not one word about growing the hobby
and teaching precision aerobatics from the early days of learning to fly.

Point in issue
I mentored a young man in our local club who was a competent
flyer
3D stick banger as I call them with the question, would he like to
learn how to do Precision Aerobatics
after some demonstration, this question
was met with enthusiasm and I offered to give him a Giles 202 (bought by me
from Ron Chidgey years ago) if he decided to compete
..lesson
one
.”Austin”
fly a straight line from point A to point B and then back
again
.he could not do it
this went on until he gave up and bought a used
40% biplane from a deceased member, ripped the tail off “stick banging”
I
helped him repair it
.and gave up on flying a straight line.

Point in issue again
.it’s really hard to take an existing flyer and
“convert” them to Precision Aerobatics, depending on age for lots of reasons
everyone has mentioned
.it would be easier (no matter how hard) to find new
blood that want to learn to fly and lead them into the  world of PA.  Tough
of course
.but I feel fruitful in the long run, case in point at the 71 RCWC
event
Mark Radcliff AMA district 3 VP is very vocal about the fact that he
saw pattern flying and decided he wanted to learn “that” in general
just “to
fly”
he eventually became a member of the FAI international competition team
(don’t remember the year)
.”no matter what the pattern is”
.that can always
be adjusted to the situation for everyone. The plane they fly with can be
adjusted to the budget and likes of the flyer what can’t be adjusted easily
is their desire and determination to learn a new skill when there is so much
else for them to do that’s both fun, easier than PA and challenging at the
same time
.aka
stick banging
...now sadly, FPV quadcopters competition.

I was devastated when my “Austin” decided that he didn’t want to worry about
learning how to fly in a straight line
..

OK
at 84 ¾
I’ve done my Precision Aerobatics
Andy was over here to buy some
stuff yesterday and we talked about the Aeroguidance Society 60th contest
and my winning in the 90’s in the Advanced category, interestingly I had the
computer score sheet readout and there were 22 pilots in that category
alone
Dave Lockhart won FAI and George Asteris (my mentor) won Masters
I
forget who the Sportsman guy was.  I look at the schedules now and yes they
are tougher but it’s all about wanting to learn the skills necessary to do
these new maneuvers
..adjusting the schedules in some clever way will not
make any difference to anyone as far as I’m concerned (maybe get some old
flyers back into PA)
.you are catering to those that are already there and
not getting new blood into the sport.  As to the schedules, at our club in
Sarasota, a new flyer must demonstrate a roll, a loop and a few other things
that are simple but this can be adjusted to do that roll in a way as to
emulate a good score because it was on line, even and centered
.that can
easily be taught during the learning process
..we have youngsters that do
their check ride and are signed off after 3 or 4 flying sessions
.

I remember flying at the Sarasota RC field with George Asteris and we were
doing our patterns, Masters and George FAI some years ago
.a couple of the
club members came up to us and said that was so “pretty” they wanted to
learn how to do that
again
.PR, PR, PR
.and give of yourself to teach.

If you have the attention of “new” possible RCers

teach them to fly, be
their buddy, help them improve their skills by gently suggesting certain
flight characteristics
.”keep the outboard wing level”, etc
..it will take
lots of time and work but it will pay off with new blood
..Example
..I
remember Don Szczur many years ago and him getting Joseph into it at an
early age
issue in point

Grow them into flying and pattern from the start
.the other already RCers
will come on board on their own to test their skills
.PR, PR, PR
..

Hey, those score sheets from 1992 should be worth something
.sort of like
the Dead Sea Scrolls
 J

If any of this made sense
.I’m happy
 J

Jay

From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On
Behalf Of Matthew Finley via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2016 4:55 PM
To: W Anthony Abdullah; General pattern discussion; Xavier Mouraux
Cc: Atwood, Mark
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics

+100

Matthew E Finley 

Q.C.I Technical Assistant

248-794-8487 mobile 

-------- Original message --------

From: W Anthony Abdullah via NSRCA-discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> 

Date: 9/8/16 4:24 PM (GMT-05:00) 

To: Xavier Mouraux <xaviermouraux at yahoo.com>, General pattern discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> 

Cc: "Atwood, Mark" <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>, General pattern discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> 

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics 

Every few years or so we recycle this conversation with the same suggestions
made, any on occasion a few rule changes. None of which, by the way, seem to
resolve the issue. I wish I had an answer, unfortunately all I can add is a
few observations and my opinion. 

FWIW here is my .02;

- I often think about the people I used to see all the time at contests, of
the ones I used to fly against in intermediate and then advanced, they
seemed to thin out either when they got to Masters or just before. As I
think of my own ascension, I'm in a bot of a quandary myself. I am a fairly
competent advanced pilot, if I practice a few weeks I'm even competitive,
but that's about the limit of my natural ability. Don't get me wrong, If I
practiced 4 days a week I could fly Masters safely but I'm NEVER going to
win. 

So here is my reality, fly advanced competently on a decent amount of
practice, as a hobby and still enjoy my other interests (there are many) and
have a LOT of fun at contests. But feel like a schmuck as people I used to
judge in intermediate are nipping at my heels, or worse, dominated by me
(the advanced lifer). Or give up everything else I enjoy doing in the summer
(fishing, cycling, camping, golf, working out, remodeling my house, movies,
nothing), practicing until my fingers bleed, just so I can be competitive
and not win. OR just fade away like so many others once they hit the Masters
meat grinder.

- As far as keeping down the cost of pattern, I don't think that has ever
been the problem. The Piedmont Focus was supposed to have resolved that
issue, yet here we are. Boxer Bob Fortino proved that a basic plane and tons
of practice was a recipe for success. He was a fixture at contests and even
won Advanced at the nats, but faded away once he moved to Masters, hmmmm. I
believe our problem is more systemic than that. I think our dwindling
numbers are more about a shift in the makeup of society than it is about
cost. We are no longer a tough, diligent, determined, competitive culture.
We are spoiled and soft as hell. We want immediate gratification and if we
don't find immediate success we quit. 

So what do we do about it?

- support the hobby and nurture true interest when we see it. Pattern guys
are cut from a different cloth, when someone shows interest help them out. I
have met great ambassadors for the hobby

- like the NBA, perhaps we should consider contraction. Perhaps 1 contest a
month in a district, that way each contest is more of an event like a mini
nats. This might also encourage more cross district participation. I know if
there were just 4 events a summer I sure as hell wouldn't want to miss one.

- Continue to promote pattern (obviously)

- Selective breeding, the Atwoods (Sean <sp>), Jeskys (Andrew, Robert),
Szczur (Joseph), and Pritchetts (Grayson), seem to be doing a great job.
Perhaps pattern pilots are born not made. JK

Long story short, we are prolly going to have to think about this a
different way.

Sent from my iPad

On Sep 8, 2016, at 12:33 PM, Xavier Mouraux via NSRCA-discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:

+100%

  _____  

From: "Atwood, Mark via NSRCA-discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
To: Dave Lockhart <davel322 at comcast.net>; General pattern discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> 
Sent: Wednesday, September 7, 2016 9:44 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics

Huge +1

Especially to the last part.  One day event, and maneuvers any club guy past
the beginner stage can try.  

Sent from my average intelligence  phone 

On Sep 7, 2016, at 9:12 PM, Dave Lockhart via NSRCA-discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:

Random thoughts and comments – 

Changing to 1 loop and 1 roll would be improvements.

No cash.

Suggest ½ Reverse Cuban Eights and Stall Turns as appropriate turnarounds,
but no enforcement of the box.  The box IS intimidating and simply flying
aerobatic maneuvers centered is challenging for many very competent sport
pilots
..heck
.flying a straight line is challenging for many competent
sport pilots.

Instant gratification is one of the biggest challenges we face in recruiting
new pattern pilots – and it is not just the kids that want instant
gratification
.many of those “kids” are now in their late 20s and older.

The perceived cost is a legitimate problem
.and actual cost is a legitimate
problem.  However, the highest level of competition equipment will always be
expensive (at any size) and in general is more expensive as it gets bigger.
And the top dog setup is what will always be viewed by outsiders as the
level of equipment needed.  Cost is an excuse for a few
..it is an excuse
because instead of flying pattern, they are flying giant scale 3D and
turbines that cost 1 – 4 times as much as pattern planes.

As Mark Atwood said
.most people in a given sport or hobby do not enter
competitions.  It is because of pressure, it is because of lack of practice
time, and it is because of ego
..plenty of hot shot pilots don’t want to put
themselves in a position where they don’t win and can’t claim to be the
best.

Limiting the size, weight, cost, power, etc, of the entry level class sounds
great
but it is counter-productive.  We want the guy flying a DLE 30 cc 3D
plane
.we want the guy flying a 10S 78” Extra
.we want the guy that picked
up an old 120 4C pattern plane because it had cool retracts
..lots of those
planes are in the hands of potential pattern pilots and we do not want to
exclude them.  The entry level class should be “run what you brung” so long
as the noise level is reasonable and safety concerns do not arise.  It is
also counter-productive because hand me down planes are not available.

The Club Class as is, in maneuver content, is not unlike Sportsman, Novice,
Pre-Novice, etc
..sequences used in the past.  Part of what was wrong with
those sequences in the past was that at some point they were treated as a
FULL class and not as ENTRY level or INTRODUCTION level.  And they were
continually mucked with
.needlessly adding variety (to entertain the upper
classes who were bored watching the same old thing), and generally adding
complexity (difficulty creep) making the bar to entry higher.  The entry
level or introduction class should not be flown at the NATs, not have a
District Champion, and should be 1 day only.  At two day events, each day is
a separate contest for the Club Class – this reduces the time commitment and
takes away the excuse of not being able to make it both days.  Club class
should be a class virtually every club member working the grill, working
registration, scribing, or running scores could fly in with half the planes
they have in their car or at their house.

Regards,

Dave

From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On
Behalf Of Scott McHarg via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2016 2:01 PM
To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics

All,

This is a note from Jon Carter from the NSRCA BoD.  FYI!

Announcing the NSRCA “Club Class!

Whether you want to call it Club class or Novice class or whatever, it’s OK,
as long as we get more people flying pattern! What is this? Good question,
we have heard from the membership that it would be nice for the NSRCA to
define a non-rulebook pattern entry level event that a CD could offer if
they so decided. This would be a non-turnaround “old-school” type of pattern
that any club flyer could do and yet still be challenged by. It will give
the CD the opportunity to grab some of the “hot dog” type sport flyers at
his club, and maybe some old time pattern pilots, and hand them a
maneuver/downgrade sheet and say “come on out to the pattern contest next
weekend and see what you can do!” Who knows, if he can get three or four
club flyers to come out maybe some will think, “Hey, this is fun! I could
learn that Sportsman pattern” Worst case it will get some more club flyers
to participate in local events which always makes it easier to “sell” a
pattern contest to the local club officers! So, dust off those older pattern
planes and those sport planes and come out and have some fun! Look on the
NSRCA website under the Sequence tab for the maneuver list and descriptions.

 <https://nsrca.us/index.php/sequences> https://nsrca.us/index.php/sequences

Scott A. McHarg

VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot

Texas A&M University

PPL - ASEL

Remote Pilot Certified Under FAA Part 107

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