[NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics

Wed Sep 7 16:34:47 AKDT 2016

I’ve been out of town but have read many of the post on this.

I started flying pattern about 12 years ago with an ultimate kaos.

An ultimate kaos is still highly competitive in sportsman but very few pilots understand that or want to compete with something like that.

I jumped to Intermediate after one year in sportsman and spent 5 or so years in intermediate and have been in advanced for about 5 or so too.

I may never make the jump to Masters (not by choice but by ability).

I don’t think a new class is the answer.

If everyone things sportsman is too hard of an entry class then why don’t we drop sportsman and replace it with club class after all, sportsman, is not a NATS class event anyway.

The new sportsman would not be judged and every contestant would get a participation ribbon or plaque.

Judges would just provide positive feedback and encouragement.

In D4 we only have 1 or 2 sportsman at each contest and most are +50 years old (George Gordon you can buy me dinner for saying thatJ).

There are 100s of potential advanced pilots that could kick my butt but they just don’t have the interest in competing, don’t like the pattern style of flying, can’t afford it at any level or all of the above.

So my point is there are plenty of potential pattern flyers out there that are way too good to start out in club class or sportsman.  The question should be why don’t these highly competent 3D type flyers want to give pattern or IMAC for that matter a try?

If you can answer that question then you have the solution to the dwindling pattern and IMAC participation.

My 2 cents.

Ron Hansen

From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of KEVIN DUNCAN via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2016 6:36 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics

Back in March 2016, I submitted an article in K-Factor addressing this issue.  You'll find it under District 7.  It may be of interest for you all to go back and re-read it.  After getting to know the Classic Pattern Association guys here on the west coast, I felt that we could possibly incorporate the CPA into our lower classes of pattern.

Curious to know your all's opinion on that since we're already discussing our ideas here.

Kevin

Kevin Duncan duncanbp at msn.com 

  _____  

From: NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> on behalf of Anthony Romano via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 7, 2016 2:52 PM
To: Tom Simes; Tom Simes via NSRCA-discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics 

Remember the effect of the 2% biplane bonus at TOC. Everyone flew a biplane after that. 
Also remember TOC started as a pattern contest but wasn't exciting enough. At least a score bonus gives a pilot a chance and wouldn't be a very difficult experiment for us. 
To steal a line from Mike"we have to do something even if it is wrong."
Lots of complaining hasn't gotten us anywhere. 
Anthony

Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36> 

On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 4:15 PM -0400, "Tom Simes via NSRCA-discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:

What about offering some kind of reasoned and documented scoring bonus
in the feeder classes for using smaller aircraft?

On 09/07/16 12:07, Scott McHarg via NSRCA-discussion wrote:
> Mike's right.  It won't work because a few can afford the 2M modern planes
> and if one can have it, they all must have it.
> 
> *Scott A. McHarg*
> VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot
> Texas A&M University
> PPL - ASEL
> Remote Pilot Certified Under FAA Part 107
> 
> On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 3:04 PM, Dr. Mike Harrison via NSRCA-discussion <
> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
> 
>> You are correct but human nature gets in the way.  Making a rule to limit
>> this fixes a lot of issues. These smaller planes fly very well.  Got to
>> create rules that perpetuate less expense and less difficulty, just being
>> voluntary is not gonna work.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Matthew Finley [mailto:rcfin02 at msn.com]
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 7, 2016 2:28 PM
>> *To:* Dr. Mike Harrison <drmikedds at sbcglobal.net>; General pattern
>> discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>; 'Scott McHarg' <
>> scmcharg at gmail.com>
>> *Subject:* RE: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
>>
>>
>>
>> My thoughts are this, and only in my opinion.... I have the choice to fly
>> any aircraft I choose in any class I choose as long as it is under 11
>> pounds, and no larger than 2 meter ( that's also pretty loose, as I have
>> never seen a scale taken out at a regular meet for 13 years or more). If
>> someone wants to go out and buy a 6s or 8s capable aerobatic bird, and fly
>> Sportsman, Intermesiate, Advanced, masters, or even FAI with it, go for it.
>> We all know that it will be smaller thus harder to judge, maneuvers will be
>> smaller, and etc.... But they are not required to have a 2 meter ship. I
>> don't see why a rule change has to be implemented in those regards as that
>> is the way it is now ??
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Matthew E Finley
>>
>> Q.C.I Technical Assistant
>>
>> 248-794-8487 mobile
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -------- Original message --------
>>
>> From: "Dr. Mike Harrison via NSRCA-discussion" <
>> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>
>> Date: 9/7/16 2:38 PM (GMT-05:00)
>>
>> To: 'Scott McHarg' <scmcharg at gmail.com>, 'General pattern discussion' <
>> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
>>
>>
>>
>> I am hesitant to get in this discussion but I want to express that I
>> believe we are in significant decline and I opine that it is because of the
>> expense, complexity and difficulty of flying and competing.  The
>> fundamental reason, I believe, is the cost, complexity and burden of time
>> to simply use the current aircraft.  I have drafted but not submitted a
>> rules change to affect that issue.
>>
>> Fundamentally, I submit that the beginning classes be restricted to
>> smaller aircraft with limitations of powerplant sizes.
>>
>> The existing current pilots flying in those classes have their current
>> aircraft grandfathered in.
>>
>> These classes would be sportsman, intermediate, and advanced.
>>
>>
>>
>> If you would research the cost of aircraft w 22volt systems vs our current
>> systems you will find the cost of smaller aircraft to be ¼ to 1/3 the cost
>> of the current 2m plane.
>>
>>
>>
>> The vast majority of parents will not spend $4000-5000 for their kid to
>> compete a few times in the beginning classes, nor commit a monthly expense
>> of $200+ or whatever to maintain. And then there is the crash and destroy
>> $1000’s in one aircraft.  Even adults won’t commit to that kind of expense
>> themselves.
>>
>>
>>
>> There is more to this but that is the basic underlying cause of the
>> disease.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org%0b%3e%3e%20%3cnsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org%3e> 
>> <nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>] *On Behalf Of *Scott McHarg
>> via NSRCA-discussion
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 7, 2016 9:49 AM
>> *To:* tretas513 at yahoo.com; General pattern discussion <
>> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
>>
>>
>>
>> Mr. Lukas and I were having an offline conversation.  We were discussing
>> why the new guys aren't getting into pattern.  The question, essentially,
>> was what's the difference between those getting into other facets vs.
>> pattern.  This is my opinion and will be part of my article this month in
>> the K-Factor:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The answer I'm about to give you makes it sound like all is lost.  I don't
>> believe it is (which is why we came up with the Club sequence) but let's
>> just stick to what we know and what is obvious from the assumption
>> standpoint for a moment.
>>
>>
>>
>> The answer to your question can be one word only or it can be a million
>> adjectives of the same word.  That word is "cool".  The kids coming up want
>> instant gratification, want to be cool, want notoriety, want to be thought
>> of as the kid who can show off the best.  You simply can't do that with
>> pattern.  Have you watched the fingers of these kids that fly 3D at Joe
>> Nall or IRCHA?  They're slamming sticks.  Then, watch the planes /
>> helicopters and see how much of the stick movement actually equates to
>> control over the aircraft.  Half of the time is spent simply recovering
>> from mistakes.  :)
>>
>>
>>
>> For some reason, the world has changed into a Social Media frenzy.  Kids
>> feel like they're missing out if we as parents threaten to take away their
>> phones as punishment.  Kids don't need to go outside to talk to friends
>> because they can do it on the couch with their phones.  They want instant
>> gratification and instant knowledge.  Most of the time, their friends know
>> what's going on before other people at the event know because of this.
>>
>>
>>
>> Pattern is nothing like this mentality at all.  Pattern takes a lot of
>> practice (as you know) and patience and set up and checking to make sure
>> everything is perfect.  Practicing is boring unless you're doing it.
>> There's no "wow factor".  In my opinion, THIS is what we're battling.  In
>> pattern, you actually have to fly the aircraft perfectly.  There's no gyro
>> to make you look better (Quads, Helicopters and Drones), there's not that
>> much of an adrenaline rush (until you're in front of the judges) and
>> there's no screen to stare at like in FPV racing.  Pattern is an art and it
>> takes that special person, the guy that wants to be artistic, to be a
>> pattern pilot.  Our costs are high for the best of the best which all of
>> these kids want.  They don't want a 1980 Super Kaos to learn the skills
>> required.  In almost all other facets, you can have quite good equipment,
>> that is accepted by their peers, for a lot less than what it would take to
>> have a "not bottom of the line" pattern plane.
>>
>>
>> *Scott A. McHarg*
>>
>> VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot
>>
>> Texas A&M University
>>
>> PPL - ASEL
>>
>> Remote Pilot Certified Under FAA Part 107
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 9:40 AM, tretas513--- via NSRCA-discussion <
>> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>>
>> Most pattern fliers know why pattern is declining but won't admit it...too
>> much expense,  too much time invested for practice and traveling, and in my
>> opinion (and a lot of others) turnaround sucks !
>>
>> Flying airplanes and competing is supposed to be fun...it used to
>> be...still is in SPA !!
>>
>> My entire SPA airplane ready to fly costs half what the engine in my 2
>> meter cost and most SPA contests are one day meets...no motels !!
>>
>> Disclaimer: just my opinion !!
>>
>>
>>
>> *Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE Smartphone*
>>
>>
>>
>> ------ Original message------
>>
>> *From: *Whodaddy Whodaddy via NSRCA-discussion
>>
>> *Date: *Wed, Sep 7, 2016 8:40 AM
>>
>> *To: *Jas S;
>>
>> *Cc: *General pattern discussion;
>>
>> *Subject:*Re: [NSRCA-discussion] New Club Class for Precision Aerobatics
>>
>>
>>
>> 😎
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
>> On Sep 6, 2016, at 9:11 PM, Jas S <justanotherflyr at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Isn't that like hearing a Masters pilot say the roll on the top of a loop
>> shouldn't be in Masters lol. Love ya Gary
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Whodaddy Whodaddy via NSRCA-discussion <
>> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>>
>> Sportsman isnt easy enough ????
>>
>>
>>
>> Not sure how it could get more basic ..
>>
>>
>>
>> But wat ever works lord knows we need something to attract new blood or
>> bring old blood back...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> G
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
>> On Sep 6, 2016, at 1:00 PM, Scott McHarg via NSRCA-discussion <
>> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
>>
>> All,
>>
>>
>>
>> This is a note from Jon Carter from the NSRCA BoD.  FYI!
>>
>>
>>
>> Announcing the NSRCA “Club Class!
>>
>> Whether you want to call it Club class or Novice class or whatever, it’s
>> OK, as long as we get more people flying pattern! What is this? Good
>> question, we have heard from the membership that it would be nice for the
>> NSRCA to define a non-rulebook pattern entry level event that a CD could
>> offer if they so decided. This would be a non-turnaround “old-school” type
>> of pattern that any club flyer could do and yet still be challenged by. It
>> will give the CD the opportunity to grab some of the “hot dog” type sport
>> flyers at his club, and maybe some old time pattern pilots, and hand them a
>> maneuver/downgrade sheet and say “come on out to the pattern contest next
>> weekend and see what you can do!” Who knows, if he can get three or four
>> club flyers to come out maybe some will think, “Hey, this is fun! I could
>> learn that Sportsman pattern” Worst case it will get some more club flyers
>> to participate in local events which always makes it easier to “sell” a
>> pattern contest to the local club officers! So, dust off those older
>> pattern planes and those sport planes and come out and have some fun! Look
>> on the NSRCA website under the Sequence tab for the maneuver list and
>> descriptions.
>>
>> https://nsrca.us/index.php/sequences
>>
>>
>>
>> *Scott A. McHarg*
>>
>> VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot
>>
>> Texas A&M University
>>
>> PPL - ASEL
>>
>> Remote Pilot Certified Under FAA Part 107
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
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>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Jason
>> http://jasonshangar.weebly.com/
>>
>>
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>>
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> 
> 
> 
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-- 
Tom

======================================================================
   "Z80 system stack overflow.  Shut 'er down Scotty, she's
         sucking mud again!" - Error message on XENIX v3.0

Tom Simes                                       simestd at netexpress.com
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