[NSRCA-discussion] 12S for F3A

Tue Nov 15 05:42:35 AKST 2016

This is too hard to check, too easy to cheat.

Dial back the  throttle limit, change prop.

Any SPA contest management ever check this?

From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On
Behalf Of Patternpilot One via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2016 6:51 AM
To: John Gayer; General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 12S for F3A

Senior Pattern Association has a watts limit, no problems. 

Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: John Gayer via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> 
Date: 11/14/16 11:21 PM (GMT-05:00) 
To: cahochhalter <cahochhalter at yahoo.com>, General pattern discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> 
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 12S for F3A 

Watts checking at competitions would be a PITA compared to a voltage check.
Perhaps the CIAM should address(and reduce) the power requirements of new F
and unknown sequences for F3A.

The rest of us tend to have max power dialed back a bit.

John

On 11/14/2016 7:05 PM, cahochhalter via NSRCA-discussion wrote:

Maybe if we promise.

What if we limit watts? But 12s.

Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: Dave Lockhart via NSRCA-discussion
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>

Date: 11/14/16 7:20 PM (GMT-06:00) 
To: 'General pattern discussion'  <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> 
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 12S for F3A 

Below is a partial snip of a thread earlier this year on the F3A discussion
list.

The long and the short of it is that going from 10S to 12S might help in the
short term, but, will be yet another round of escalation in the long term.

Regards,

Dave

From: F3A-Discussion [mailto:f3a-discussion-bounces at lists.f3a.us] On Behalf
Of Dave Lockhart via F3A-Discussion
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2016 8:20 PM
To: 'Atwood, Mark' <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>; f3a-discussion at lists.f3a.us
Subject: Re: [F3A-Discussion] Rule proposals

I've been flying pattern since the early 1980s..and have come to be fond of
a couple answers to one question -

Q - How much power is enough?

A - Way too much.

A - More.

A - I'll let you know when I find it.

In the last 30 years of pattern history, the power used has always been the
most available.  Zero exceptions.

The history of power limits as it were -

Max engine size - 60 cubic in - everyone ran 60s with pipes (and many pushed
high nitro low oil fuels for more power).

Max engines size - 60 2C or 120 4C.  This was to allow more diversity, lower
noise, "friendlier" power, etc.  Didn't happen - everyone ended up running
more expensive 120 4Cs (and many pushed high nitro for more power).  

Unlimited engine size - Again, to allow more diversity, lower stressed
powerplants, cheaper cost, etc.  Didn't happen (again)  - everyone ran a
limited number of purpose built more expensive 2C and engines (and many
pushed high nitro for more power).

Specific YS evolution - 120, 120AC, 120SC, 140, 140L, 140DZ, 160, 175,
185...and running 30% nitro the entire history.

Specific Electric evolution - (really the batteries) - ThunderPower
10s4p8000 4-6C, TP10s4p5300 10-12C, TP10s2p5400 18-20C, then several
generations of 25C up to the current ProLite X (and similar offerings from
other brands).  The promise of every successive generation was more power,
lower operating temps, and longer lifecycles.  In just about every instance,
more power was realized (and used)..and operating temps and lifecycles were
not dramatically changed (since about generation 4 of about 8 generations).

Any time the opportunity to escalate power (and costs) was available, it
happened.

All of Mark's points are valid IF the power level remains CONSTANT.  IF the
power level INCREASES (and it will), the advantages Mark notes will not be
realized...but the detriments will be - increased cost to change motors,
chargers, and lipos, and a reduced secondary market to which the 10S setups
can be "recycled".

The nature of competition is to push the envelope and exploit any possible
competitive advantage.  12S will be a competitive advantage, and the power
level will go up.  I see no reason why the historical trend of pattern
and/or competitive nature will change.  Given a suitable transition period,
the power systems will all be 12S, and just as stressed as they are now with
10S. 

Regards,

Dave

From: Atwood, Mark [mailto:atwoodm at paragon-inc.com] 
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2016 2:44 PM
To: DaveL322 <DaveL322 at comcast.net>; f3a-discussion at lists.f3a.us
Cc: Derek Koopowitz <derekkoopowitz at gmail.com>; Ramsey Don
<donramsey at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [F3A-Discussion] Rule proposals

So to chime in here. 

Yes, Amps kill. but the body has natural impedance that requires sufficient
voltage to push through it.  Right now if you accidentally short a 10S pack,
(and I'm guessing many of us have) we don't feel the jolt even though over
200amps have likely passed, but rather we typically just get burned on the
skin (and melt a connector).  This is because the resistance in your skin
prevents the amperage from traveling through you.  50V won't meaningfully
impact that.  Yes, it's an increase, but not a dangerous one.   It's pretty
universally accepted that 50v DC is safe at any amperage (from it being
lethal) up to and including putting electrodes under the skin.  Not
something I'd advise trying.

There are a number of strong upsides to this. We currently run our equipment
very hard, and very hot.  Up-ing the voltage by 20% would significantly
reduce both and significantly increase the efficiency and tolerance of the
systems in play.   Weight would not be impacted as you would run lower
capacity, higher voltage cells that would weigh roughly the same, but run
cooler, last longer, and provide equal or longer flight times.

The clear downside as mentioned would be a bit of retooling for those that
want to change.   Motor's have to be wound differently, so a 12S Pletty is
different from a 10S Pletty, though it's the same motor casing and such, so
it would be plug n play in the airframes.     

Batteries we buy pretty steadily just like we did fuel. so I would imagine
most would simply replace motors when they put together new airplanes and
phase in new batteries as a result.  Charges would indeed be a brand new
expense if you don't currently have a charger that can handle 12S (many do
as F3C and many others already run 12S.)

Overall I would be interested in this simply due to the current excessive
wear on our equipment from the high amperage loads and heat.  Running 55amps
vs 70amps reduces the strain on everything all the way down to the gauge of
wire we run.

MARK ATWOOD

o.  (440) 229-2502

c.  (216) 316-2489

e.   <mailto:atwoodm at paragon-inc.com> atwoodm at paragon-inc.com

Paragon Consulting, Inc.

5900 Landerbrook Drive, Suite 205, Cleveland Ohio, 44124

 <http://www.paragon-inc.com/> www.paragon-inc.com

Powering The Digital Experience

From: DaveL322 [mailto:DaveL322 at comcast.net] 
Sent: Friday, November 11, 2016 1:25 PM
To: S. McNickle  <mailto:nelson_jett at comcast.net> <nelson_jett at comcast.net>;
General pattern discussion  <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>; Larry Diamond
<mailto:ldiamond at diamondrc.com> <ldiamond at diamondrc.com>
Cc: Hansen, Ron  <mailto:rcpilot at wowway.com> <rcpilot at wowway.com>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 12S for F3A

100% correct.

I previously made a lengthy post to the F3A mailing list and will repost to
this list when I am home after the weekend (f3p contest).

Regards,

Dave

Sent from my Sprint Samsung Galaxy Note5.

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