[NSRCA-discussion] Update - UAS Registration Frequently Asked Questions | AMA Government Relations Blog
John Gayer
jgghome at comcast.net
Thu Jan 21 14:20:51 AKST 2016
Dana,
Of course we need to see and avoid. That is true for anything in the sky
that is controlled.
The FAR relating to airspace has no reference that requires the pilot to
be onboard.
I was referring to class G airspace rules below 500 feet.
John
On 1/21/2016 2:51 PM, Dana Beaton via NSRCA-discussion wrote:
> @ John Gayer, the thing is, regardless of what the FARs dictate to
> pilots of manned aircraft, the smaller more maneuverable craft is
> alway obligated to give way, and that will always be the Small UAS
> with respect to anything manned. We will always be obligated to see
> and avoid when flying our models. The legal basis for this goes back
> to antiquity probably as a custom of the high seas, or whenever
> mariners started making right of way rules for each other. Aviation
> follows in this time honored tradition of navigation, smaller craft
> seeing and avoiding larger vessels for practical reasons. The onus
> will always be on us and guess what, we are up to the task because we
> have been doing it for decades now. Amazing actually! Safe flying
> guys! Dana
>
>
>> On Jan 21, 2016, at 4:14 PM, Keith Hoard via NSRCA-discussion
>> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
>>
>> Having our own airspace would also have significant financial graft
>> appeal for the AMA, thus motivating them to pursue this option.
>> Right now the AMA is trying to make their “scope” the entire surface
>> of the U.S.A. as well as every modeler and moron with a credit card.
>> By spreading themselves so thin they are setting themselves up for
>> failure.
>> If the AMA would limit their “scope” to folks who operate at
>> designated model fields within protected airspace, then they would
>> funnel anyone who wishes to operate legally to an AMA field –
>> “$$Cha$$-$$Ching$$” - $75/year. However, that also means that they
>> need to tell the FAA that they are not responsible for anyone
>> operating outside Class “M” airspace and they are on their own.
>> -Keith Hoard
>> -klhoard at outlook.com <mailto:klhoard at outlook.com>
>> *From:*Dana Beaton [mailto:danamaenia at me.com]
>> *Sent:*Thursday, January 21, 2016 14:59
>> *To:*Keith Hoard <klhoard at outlook.com <mailto:klhoard at outlook.com>>;
>> General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
>> *Subject:*Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Update - UAS Registration Frequently
>> Asked Questions | AMA Government Relations Blog
>> You missed your big opportunity Keith! Class F airspace is not yet
>> defined in the good old US of A! Go for it!!!
>>> On Jan 21, 2016, at 3:55 PM, Keith Hoard via NSRCA-discussion
>>> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
>>> Actually, you could write the rules for Class “M” airspace so that
>>> those type licenses and restrictions wouldn’t apply.
>>> -Keith Hoard
>>> -klhoard at outlook.com <mailto:klhoard at outlook.com>
>>> What class of airspace are you asking for Keith and do we really
>>> need that much? If we ask for the same airspace access as licensed
>>> private or commercial pilots have, then we will need to get those
>>> tickets.
>>>> On Jan 21, 2016, at 3:09 PM, Keith Hoard <klhoard at outlook.com
>>>> <mailto:klhoard at outlook.com>> wrote:
>>>> Why cant we be granted 2000 AGL? We're frickin’ full fledged tax
>>>> payin’ grown up users of the stinkin’ National Airspace System, right?
>>>> If the FA&A has upgraded our planes to Full Scale Status, then they
>>>> need to provide us the proper airspace protections we deserve.
>>>> Sent fromOutlook Mail
>>>> <http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550987>for Windows 10 phone
>>>>
>>>> *From:*Dana Beaton <mailto:danamaenia at me.com>
>>>> *Sent:*Thursday, January 21, 2016 13:54
>>>> *To:*Keith Hoard <mailto:klhoard at outlook.com>;General pattern
>>>> discussion <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>> *Subject:*Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Update - UAS Registration
>>>> Frequently Asked Questions | AMA Government Relations Blog
>>>> BINGO!!! Way to go Keith!
>>>> Hint, we’ll never be granted 2,000’ AGL. But if we could get
>>>> airspace exceptions up to say, 900’-1,000’ AGL, that would solve a
>>>> lot of problems for all.
>>>>> On Jan 21, 2016, at 2:20 PM, Keith Hoard via NSRCA-discussion
>>>>> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
>>>>> If that were true, then full-scale could never land . . .
>>>>> The only way out I can see is to get our own airspace, say ½ mile
>>>>> radius up to 2000 feet centered on every AMA field and published
>>>>> with the FAA. There are already NOTAMS for designated UAS
>>>>> activity published in the regular system, so there is no reason we
>>>>> couldn’t get our own permanent NOTAM published for each field.
>>>>> Instead of acting like the victims here, the AMA needs to start
>>>>> demanding our own chunks of the NAS. If we are now full-fledged
>>>>> users of the NAS, then we need to start acting like it.
>>>>> “Give me a Vector, Victor . . . “
>>>>> -Keith Hoard
>>>>> -klhoard at outlook.com <mailto:klhoard at outlook.com>
>>>>> I agree with Dan.
>>>>> Furthermore, the term "navigable airspace" extends up from the
>>>>> ground. Full-scale airplanes do NOT always have a glass "floor" of
>>>>> 500 feet, as some would think.
>>>>> J
>>>>> On Jan 21, 2016, at 8:40 AM, Dana Beaton via NSRCA-discussion
>>>>> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The definition discussion is closed. If it flies in navigable
>>>>>> airspace, it is an aircraft. If the pilot is not on board, it is
>>>>>> a UAS. The term includes the ground station, support systems and
>>>>>> the aircraft itself. They are taking a systems approach to
>>>>>> regulating Small UAS. RC models are now Small UAS when flown in
>>>>>> the NAS. This is what we have to deal with now, what AMA has to
>>>>>> deal with as they fight to preserve our hobby. We need to get our
>>>>>> heads around the new realities if we are to remain relevant to
>>>>>> hold on to what we can. Respectfully, Dana
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jan 21, 2016, at 8:23 AM, Dr. Mike Harrison via
>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>> To engage the definition of a drone, especially the way you
>>>>>>> intend would be suicidal for us. The misinterpretations would
>>>>>>> be catastrophic. I would stay away from such.
>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>> *From:*NSRCA-discussion
>>>>>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]*On Behalf
>>>>>>> Of*Ron Hansen via NSRCA-discussion
>>>>>>> *Sent:*Wednesday, January 20, 2016 6:58 AM
>>>>>>> *To:*'Paul Lukas' <paul.lukas at live.com
>>>>>>> <mailto:paul.lukas at live.com>>; 'General pattern discussion'
>>>>>>> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>; 'Anthony
>>>>>>> Cornacchione' <acornacchione at hotmail.com
>>>>>>> <mailto:acornacchione at hotmail.com>>;jpavlick at idseng.com
>>>>>>> <mailto:jpavlick at idseng.com>; 'John Pavlick' <jpavlick26 at att.net
>>>>>>> <mailto:jpavlick26 at att.net>>
>>>>>>> *Subject:*Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Update - UAS Registration
>>>>>>> Frequently Asked Questions | AMA Government Relations Blog
>>>>>>> Paul,
>>>>>>> That was the statement that really got me pissed too.
>>>>>>> The other thing that troubles me is every time they show a
>>>>>>> picture of a drone they show a quad copter. Do they realize
>>>>>>> that the FAA is also regulating airplanes of basically all
>>>>>>> sizes? I think not.
>>>>>>> In my view a drone should be defined as an aircraft (plane,
>>>>>>> heli, quad, etc.) that is equipped with a camera_and_gyro
>>>>>>> whether or not it can be piloted out of visual range using
>>>>>>> first-person-viewer technology. All other aircraft under 55 lbs
>>>>>>> should be unregulated by the government.
>>>>>>> The AMA is clearly not doing a good job of educating congress on
>>>>>>> what a drone really is.
>>>>>>> This Senator was also not aware that the FAA just started
>>>>>>> requiring registration.
>>>>>>> I guess we will have to pass the legislation to find out what is
>>>>>>> in it!!!!
>>>>>>> *From:*NSRCA-discussion
>>>>>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]*On Behalf
>>>>>>> Of*Paul Lukas via NSRCA-discussion
>>>>>>> *Sent:*Wednesday, January 20, 2016 1:10 AM
>>>>>>> *To:*'Anthony Cornacchione'; 'General pattern
>>>>>>> discussion';jpavlick at idseng.com <mailto:jpavlick at idseng.com>;
>>>>>>> 'John Pavlick'
>>>>>>> *Subject:*Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Update - UAS Registration
>>>>>>> Frequently Asked Questions | AMA Government Relations Blog
>>>>>>> “We probably don’t need to worry about the commercial
>>>>>>> users…because those users are going to be very careful, but for
>>>>>>> the hobbyist, or the kid, that can now go and purchase it, and
>>>>>>> you see the probabilities of an accident waiting to happen”.
>>>>>>> Paraphrased but the most frightening words I’ve ever heard. My
>>>>>>> blood ran cold when he said this. What commercial sUAS company
>>>>>>> is located in Florida that wants hobbyists out of the way?
>>>>>>> The argument about “drones” vs. “plankers” is moot. These
>>>>>>> people don’t see or care about the difference.
>>>>>>> I looked up the Commerce, Science, and Transportation committee.
>>>>>>> It is headed up by Sen. Thune from South Dakota. I’m going to
>>>>>>> write Sen. Thune a letter (since his website would only give me
>>>>>>> 500 characters…) The AMA may be talking to the FAA, but they
>>>>>>> are not talking to congressmen and senators as far as I’ve
>>>>>>> seen. These are the people that will give the FAA the
>>>>>>> ammunition to end it all. I might be overreacting, but I live a
>>>>>>> mile inside the Washington, DC FRZ and they just shut down 14
>>>>>>> some odd AMA clubs in the DC SFRA (technically in September,
>>>>>>> 2015, but enforced in December). If Senator Nelson has his way,
>>>>>>> I don’t think it will end there.
>>>>>>> Paul “I haven’t been grounded this long since I was 12” Lukas
>>>>>>> *From:*NSRCA-discussion
>>>>>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]*On Behalf
>>>>>>> Of*Anthony Cornacchione via NSRCA-discussion
>>>>>>> *Sent:*Tuesday, January 19, 2016 6:52 PM
>>>>>>> *To:*jpavlick at idseng.com <mailto:jpavlick at idseng.com>; John
>>>>>>> Pavlick <jpavlick26 at att.net <mailto:jpavlick26 at att.net>>;
>>>>>>> General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
>>>>>>> *Subject:*Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Update - UAS Registration
>>>>>>> Frequently Asked Questions | AMA Government Relations Blog
>>>>>>> It's going to get worse. The one thing we've been clinging to
>>>>>>> is the language in a 4 year old Reauthorization Act that expires
>>>>>>> in two months. Here's some senate floor action. Pay attention
>>>>>>> around the 430 mark to the end.
>>>>>>> http://www.c-span.org/video/?c4576550/senator-nelsons-speech-drones
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Jan 17, 2016, at 12:58 AM, John Pavlick via NSRCA-discussion
>>>>>>> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> But Matt, I AM building AND contributing to the nonsensical…
>>>>>>>> uh, what you said! LOL
>>>>>>>> John Pavlick
>>>>>>>> Cell: 203-417-4971
>>>>>>>> <image001.png>
>>>>>>>> Integrated Development Services
>>>>>>>> *From:*NSRCA-discussion
>>>>>>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]*On Behalf
>>>>>>>> Of*Matthew Kebabjian via NSRCA-discussion
>>>>>>>> *Sent:*Saturday, January 16, 2016 11:48 PM
>>>>>>>> *To:*John Gayer; General pattern discussion
>>>>>>>> *Subject:*Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Update - UAS Registration
>>>>>>>> Frequently Asked Questions | AMA Government Relations Blog
>>>>>>>> I thought youse guys had no time to build. This nonsensical
>>>>>>>> diatribe over the past month or so might hint otherwise.
>>>>>>>> Matt Kebabjian
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Jan 16, 2016, at 6:43 PM, John Gayer via NSRCA-discussion
>>>>>>>> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> That unit of measure being undefined with a possibility of the
>>>>>>>>> delay being zero, I suggest using the holy hand grenade to
>>>>>>>>> eliminate the intruder.
>>>>>>>>> On 1/16/2016 3:19 PM, DaveL322 via NSRCA-discussion wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I believe the appropriate unit of measure for the "return
>>>>>>>>>> time" is 1 migration cycle for an african swallow.
>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>> Dave
>>>>>>>>>> Sent on a Sprint Samsung Galaxy Note® 3
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -------- Original message --------
>>>>>>>>>> From: Phil Spelt via
>>>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Date: 01/16/2016 16:14 (GMT-05:00)
>>>>>>>>>> To: Keith Hoard<klhoard at outlook.com>
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:klhoard at outlook.com>,
>>>>>>>>>> nsrca-discussion<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Update - UAS Registration
>>>>>>>>>> Frequently Asked Questions | AMA Government Relations Blog
>>>>>>>>>> How long do we have to wait for them to surface, Keith? A
>>>>>>>>>> week -- 2 weeks? How long?
>>>>>>>>>> Do we have free reign with them after they surface?
>>>>>>>>>> */Phil Spelt, KCRC Emeritus, Secretary/**/
>>>>>>>>>> *AMA 1294, Scientific Leader Member*
>>>>>>>>>> *SPA L-18, Board Member*
>>>>>>>>>> *(865) 435-1476v (865) 604-0541c*/*
>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>> We must give them the “float test”.
>>>>>>>>>> Throw them and their multi-rotors in the AMA pond in Muncie.
>>>>>>>>>> If they float, then they're a witch. If they don’t return to
>>>>>>>>>> the surface, then they're OK.
>>>>>>>>>> Sent fromOutlook Mail
>>>>>>>>>> <http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550987>for Windows 10
>>>>>>>>>> phone
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *From:*Ed Alt via NSRCA-discussion
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>>>>>>> *Sent:*Saturday, January 16, 2016 12:25
>>>>>>>>>> *To:*Peter Vogel <mailto:vogel.peter at gmail.com>;NSRCA List
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>>>>>>> *Subject:*Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Update - UAS Registration
>>>>>>>>>> Frequently Asked Questions | AMA Government Relations Blog
>>>>>>>>>> The multi-rotor scourge is in no way comparable to helis.
>>>>>>>>>> Heli's require smarts, skill, patience. They exist for
>>>>>>>>>> entirely different reasons than do autonomous multi-rotor
>>>>>>>>>> stuff. This is entirely different. It's a completely
>>>>>>>>>> incompatible activity at an RC field if a dozen or so Joe
>>>>>>>>>> Blow's show up with them. They aren't hobbyists and you will
>>>>>>>>>> scarcely get converts.
>>>>>>>>>> Ed
>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>> Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 18:17:35 +0000
>>>>>>>>>> From:vogel.peter at gmail.com <mailto:vogel.peter at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> To:burtona at atmc.net
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:burtona at atmc.net>;ed_alt at hotmail.com
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:ed_alt at hotmail.com>;nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Update - UAS Registration
>>>>>>>>>> Frequently Asked Questions | AMA Government Relations Blog
>>>>>>>>>> Same arguments were made regarding helicopters at many fields.
>>>>>>>>>> Fundamentally, if a multi rotor pilot comes to the field (and
>>>>>>>>>> they have), I'm going to welcome them and teach them the
>>>>>>>>>> rules of the field (which includes the AMA safety code and
>>>>>>>>>> how to react when full scale flys by low on their way to the
>>>>>>>>>> airfield 6 miles down the road, or the police helicopter
>>>>>>>>>> flies by very low doing speed control on hwy 101).
>>>>>>>>>> It's our only hope: embrace and educate. The alternative is
>>>>>>>>>> shun and lose all opportunity to discourage
>>>>>>>>>> unsafe/irresponsible use.
>>>>>>>>>> If you educate one in responsible use, there's a possibility
>>>>>>>>>> they will spread that knowledge to others in the community of
>>>>>>>>>> multi rotor pilots.
>>>>>>>>>> Peter+
>>>>>>>>>> Sent fromOutlook Mobile <https://aka.ms/qtex0l>
>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 10:05 AM -0800, "Ed Alt via
>>>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Dave:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yeah, I know that idiots are the problem. Until we figure
>>>>>>>>>> out how to fix stupid, we should separate ourselves from the
>>>>>>>>>> stuff that those idiots are drawn to. There's no particular
>>>>>>>>>> reason for some clown from the non-modeling public to come to
>>>>>>>>>> an AMA flying field. Nothing much to video, right? We'll
>>>>>>>>>> never, ever attract them to the AMA in any kind of meaningful
>>>>>>>>>> numbers and actually, God help us if we did. Good flying
>>>>>>>>>> fields are hard enough to come by. Do you really want to be
>>>>>>>>>> competing for air time against dozens of bozos who might show
>>>>>>>>>> up just to fly a multi-rotor? No thanks.
>>>>>>>>>> Ed
>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>> From:burtona at atmc.net <mailto:burtona at atmc.net>
>>>>>>>>>> To:ed_alt at hotmail.com
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:ed_alt at hotmail.com>;nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [NSRCA-discussion] Update - UAS Registration
>>>>>>>>>> Frequently Asked Questions | AMA Government Relations Blog
>>>>>>>>>> Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 12:48:12 -0500
>>>>>>>>>> Multi rotors are not the problem. Idiots are the problem. We
>>>>>>>>>> have a few idiots flying every type of model. I've seen an
>>>>>>>>>> idiot chasing after a small full scale trying to get close.
>>>>>>>>>> That was with some kind of sport airplane. Would you keep a
>>>>>>>>>> guy away from an AMA field if he brought out a Giant scale, a
>>>>>>>>>> pattern plane, and a multi rotor to fly all of them. I'm of
>>>>>>>>>> the opinion I'd rather have multi rotors at an AMA field
>>>>>>>>>> environment rather than a mall parking lot or somewhere else
>>>>>>>>>> just a stupid.
>>>>>>>>>> Dave
>>>>>>>>>> *From:*NSRCA-discussion
>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]*On Behalf
>>>>>>>>>> Of*Ed Alt via NSRCA-discussion
>>>>>>>>>> *Sent:*Saturday, January 16, 2016 11:31 AM
>>>>>>>>>> *To:*John Gayer; Larry Diamond; NSRCA List
>>>>>>>>>> *Subject:*Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Update - UAS Registration
>>>>>>>>>> Frequently Asked Questions | AMA Government Relations Blog
>>>>>>>>>> This is why it's a mistake to continue to allow multi-rotor
>>>>>>>>>> (actual) drones at any AMA flying field. It doesn't matter
>>>>>>>>>> that most AMA members are very responsible. It takes perhaps
>>>>>>>>>> only one full scale incident and we could be done. I think
>>>>>>>>>> that if you've got them, take them somewhere else.
>>>>>>>>>> Ed
>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>> To:ldiamond at diamondrc.com
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:ldiamond at diamondrc.com>;nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 09:19:42 -0700
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Update - UAS Registration
>>>>>>>>>> Frequently Asked Questions | AMA Government Relations Blog
>>>>>>>>>> From:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The only time there will be a problem is with full-scale
>>>>>>>>>> incidents. You then have a pilot saying he was at 600 feet
>>>>>>>>>> and this "drone" shot past him vertically and it looked like
>>>>>>>>>> the "drone" was trying to hit him. Then the only issue is who
>>>>>>>>>> was flying the model. That is relatively simple at an AMA
>>>>>>>>>> field given a description of the model.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> A few incidents like that and we will have a hard 400 foot
>>>>>>>>>> limit (or lower).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>>> On 1/16/2016 3:25 AM, Larry Diamond via NSRCA-discussion wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> The 400’ foot discussion has been interesting to follow.
>>>>>>>>>>> Think about how they would enforce this if it were
>>>>>>>>>>> regulation and you were at a flying site.
>>>>>>>>>>> 1)If they show up to the flying site, they would be
>>>>>>>>>>> conspicuous with equipment trying to document the fact you
>>>>>>>>>>> are above 400’. They must have physical evidence for it to
>>>>>>>>>>> stand up in court if the citation is issued. You simply
>>>>>>>>>>> bring your plan down to 400’ or don’t fly.
>>>>>>>>>>> 2)If they were off site, it is no different than issuing
>>>>>>>>>>> speeding tickets. They must have evidence the plane they
>>>>>>>>>>> document belongs to you and they must be able to demonstrate
>>>>>>>>>>> a violation occurred and the history to show it is you
>>>>>>>>>>> without question. This will not be enforceable if they can’t
>>>>>>>>>>> testify you were physically flying the drone over 400’.
>>>>>>>>>>> a.Example: An enforcement officer locks there radar on you
>>>>>>>>>>> for speeding. The officer is charged with the responsibility
>>>>>>>>>>> of maintaining a visual on you (history) or have video to
>>>>>>>>>>> show your vehicle was the one speeding. If it is only a
>>>>>>>>>>> video correlation, they must be able to demonstrate
>>>>>>>>>>> (testify) it was you driving and not somebody else,
>>>>>>>>>>> typically pulling you over within a couple of minutes. If
>>>>>>>>>>> this can’t be demonstrated (testified) to the level of
>>>>>>>>>>> beyond reasonable doubt, the charge/citation will not stick
>>>>>>>>>>> and it will be dismissed.
>>>>>>>>>>> Were the 400’ policy does get enforced with certainty will
>>>>>>>>>>> be a post mortem event. i.e. midair collision… Outside of
>>>>>>>>>>> this type of event, it will be very difficult to police and
>>>>>>>>>>> enforce.
>>>>>>>>>>> It is one thing to have a policy out there. It is much
>>>>>>>>>>> different when the policy is executed and then tested in the
>>>>>>>>>>> court system.
>>>>>>>>>>> Over simplified but the point is clear for me.
>>>>>>>>>>> As my favorite comedian always says, “It is only my opinion,
>>>>>>>>>>> I could be wrong”.
>>>>>>>>>>> Larry
>>>>>>>>>>> *From:*NSRCA-discussion
>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]*On Behalf
>>>>>>>>>>> Of*Dana Beaton via NSRCA-discussion
>>>>>>>>>>> *Sent:*Friday, January 15, 2016 9:48 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> *To:*Peter Vogel<vogel.peter at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:vogel.peter at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> *Cc:*John Pavlick<jpavlick26 at att.net>
>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:jpavlick26 at att.net>; General pattern
>>>>>>>>>>> discussion<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> *Subject:*Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Update - UAS Registration
>>>>>>>>>>> Frequently Asked Questions | AMA Government Relations Blog
>>>>>>>>>>> I hear you but every time the 400' thing comes up again it's
>>>>>>>>>>> in the wrong direction and the reassurances carry no weight
>>>>>>>>>>> whatsoever in light of what has been published for us to
>>>>>>>>>>> observe to date. The distinctions will be costly for any
>>>>>>>>>>> one individual to make if unlucky to find oneself in a
>>>>>>>>>>> process. While our risk may be low flying at our club
>>>>>>>>>>> fields, times have definitely changed...
>>>>>>>>>>> The ERAU UAS course is also a real eye-opener in many
>>>>>>>>>>> respects. I think it is still open if anyone is interested.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Jan 15, 2016, at 9:27 PM, Peter Vogel
>>>>>>>>>>> <vogel.peter at gmail.com <mailto:vogel.peter at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 6.e uses the word "should", not "must" and that's a very
>>>>>>>>>>>> important legal distinction, making that a guideline, not a
>>>>>>>>>>>> requirement. Further, as they said on Sunday, they are
>>>>>>>>>>>> aware they got that wrong and are working with the AMA to
>>>>>>>>>>>> fix it.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Peter+
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 15, 2016 at 7:10 PM, Dana Beaton via
>>>>>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 6.e is a real eye-opener, and a lot less ambiguous than
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 91-57 was in its original form. Will be interesting to see
>>>>>>>>>>>>> what AMA gas to say about it. Thanks for the link!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jan 15, 2016, at 7:59 PM, Mking via NSRCA-discussion
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Has anyone from the AMA commented on the new FAA Advisory
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Circular 91-57A Change 1?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_91-57A_Ch_1.pdf
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Marty King
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A&P/IA
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mking at kingaeroaviation.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:mking at kingaeroaviation.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> King Aero Aviation, Inc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 574-304-5781
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Shop:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 24751 US 6
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nappanee, Indiana 46550
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Office:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 56632 Boss Blvd
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Elkhart, Indiana 46516
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> www.kingaeroaviation.com <http://www.kingaeroaviation.com/>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jan 15, 2016, at 8:32 PM, John Pavlick via
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And to that end I PROMISE not to shoot anyone unless
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they actually break into my house. Now is it OK if I buy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some 30 round mag’s for my AR-15? LOL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John Pavlick
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cell: 203-417-4971
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <image001.png>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Integrated Development Services
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *From:*NSRCA-discussion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]*On
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of*Ed Alt via NSRCA-discussion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Sent:*Friday, January 15, 2016 7:09 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *To:*Dave Lockhart
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Cc:*General pattern discussion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Subject:*Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Update - UAS
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Registration Frequently Asked Questions | AMA Government
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Relations Blog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But Dave, did you like your doctor? The promise was "if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jan 15, 2016, at 7:06 PM, Dave Lockhart
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <davel322 at comcast.net <mailto:davel322 at comcast.net>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have lots of video promising I can keep my doctor……
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *From:*NSRCA-discussion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]*On
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of*Ed Alt via NSRCA-discussion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Sent:*Friday, January 15, 2016 6:42 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *To:*Peter Vogel <vogel.peter at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:vogel.peter at gmail.com>>; John Gayer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <jgghome at comcast.net <mailto:jgghome at comcast.net>>;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NSRCA List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Subject:*Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Update - UAS
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Registration Frequently Asked Questions | AMA
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Government Relations Blog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anyone get that on video? It's just hearsay until they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> put it into their regulations. Meanwhile, we're signing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> up to a promise not to exceed 400'. It would be nice
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to have that video for the trial. lol
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 15:39:07 -0800
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To:jgghome at comcast.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:jgghome at comcast.net>;nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Update - UAS
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Registration Frequently Asked Questions | AMA
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Government Relations Blog
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yep. This was brought up directly with the FAA guy at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the AMA Expo, he indicated that they got the 400' thing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrong and will be working to clarify their guidance.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The guidance on the web site right now is for people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not flying under an approved set of rules from a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community based organization like the AMA.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Peter+
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 15, 2016 at 3:32 PM, John Gayer via
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is what the AMA says about the 400 foot barrier
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on the FAQs page:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Q: Am I permitted to fly above 400 feet? What if I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> had to check a box saying otherwise on the federal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> registration website?*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A: Yes. AMA members who abide by the AMA Safety Code,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which permits flights above 400 feet under appropriate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances, and are protected by the Special Rule
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for Model Aircraft under the 2012 FAA Modernization
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Reform Act. Checking the box on the federal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> registration webpage signifies an understanding of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 400 foot guideline. This is an important safety
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> principle that all UAS operators need to be aware of,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and is the same guideline established in AC 91-57
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> published in 1981. However, the placement of this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> guideline on the FAA website is intended as an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> educational piece and more specifically intended for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those operating outside of AMA’s safey program. We
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have been in discussions with the FAA about this point
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the agency has indicted that it will be updating
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its website in the next week to make clear that this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> altitude guideline is not intended to supplant the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> guidance and safety procedures established in AMA’s
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> safety program.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sounds clear, right? No 400 foot barrier need apply.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> However, the following is what you have to "read,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understand and follow", according to the FAA.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Acknowledgement of Safety Guidance
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * I will fly below 400 feet
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * I will fly within visual line of sight
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * I will be aware of FAA airspace requirements:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> www.faa.gov/go/uastfr <http://www.faa.gov/go/uastfr>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * I will not fly directly over people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * I will not fly over stadiums and sports events
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * I will not fly near emergency response efforts
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such as fires
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * I will not fly near aircraft, especially near airports
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * I will not fly under the influence
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Learn More
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.faa.gov/uas/publications/model_aircraft_operators/>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [ ] I have read, understand and intend to follow the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> safety guidance.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Under the "learn more" link, we find the following:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Model Aircraft Operations Limits
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> According to the FAA Modernization and Reform Act of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2012 as (1) the aircraft is flown strictly for hobby
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or recreational use; (2) the aircraft is operated in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accordance with a community-based set of safety
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> guidelines and within the programming of a nationwide
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community-based organization; (3) the aircraft is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> limited to not more than 55 pounds unless otherwise
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> certified through a design, construction, inspection,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> flight test, and operational safety program
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> administered by a community-based organization; (4)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the aircraft is operated in a manner that does not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interfere with and gives way to any manned aircraft;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (5) when flown within 5 miles of an airport, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> operator of the aircraft provides the airport operator
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the airport air traffic control tower…with prior
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> notice of the operation; and (6) the aircraft is flown
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> within visual line sight of the operator.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * More information about safety and training
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> guidelines
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.faa.gov/exit/?pageName=More%20information%20about%20safety%20and%20training%20guidelines&pgLnk=http://www.modelaircraft.org/>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * Visit knowbeforeyoufly.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.faa.gov/exit/?pageName=Visit%20knowbeforeyoufly.org&pgLnk=http://www.knowbeforeyoufly.org/>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This implies that the 400 foot barrier is not a limit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for model aircraft and also refers you back to the AMA
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> FAQs above. Since the "learn more" link eventually
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> refers you back to the AMA position on 400 feet under
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the "more info about safety" link, it very fuzzily
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> appears to be supporting the position that we can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still fly pattern without lying to the FAA even though
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we appear to be agreeing to such a limit in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Acknowledgement".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Guess I'll register.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/15/2016 3:56 PM, Patternpilot One via
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Here is what I got from Mark Radcliff just after
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> midnight Monday morning.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> He was at the Expo. It has been posted all over
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Facebook.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://amablog.modelaircraft.org/amagov/2016/01/11/update-uas-registration-frequently-asked-questions/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sa.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Director, Fixed Wing Flight Training
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Santa Clara County Model Aircraft Skypark
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Associate Vice President, Academy of Model Aeronautics
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> District X
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Treasurer, National Society of Radio Control Aerobatics
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (NSRCA)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <image001.jpg><image002.jpg>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> listNSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> Director, Fixed Wing Flight Training
>>>>>>>>>>>> Santa Clara County Model Aircraft Skypark
>>>>>>>>>>>> Associate Vice President, Academy of Model Aeronautics
>>>>>>>>>>>> District X
>>>>>>>>>>>> Treasurer, National Society of Radio Control Aerobatics (NSRCA)
>>>>>>>>>>>> <image001.jpg><image002.jpg>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing listNSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>>>>>>>> Checked by AVG -www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com/>
>>>>>>>>>> Version: 2015.0.6176 / Virus Database: 4489/11411 - Release
>>>>>>>>>> Date: 01/15/16
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>>> <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
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>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>>> <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
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>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>>> <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>>>> <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion
>>> mailing listNSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>> <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
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>> <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
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