[NSRCA-discussion] Update - UAS Registration Frequently Asked Questions | AMA Government Relations Blog

Sat Jan 16 09:18:16 AKST 2016

Same arguments were made regarding helicopters at many fields.  
Fundamentally, if a multi rotor pilot comes to the field (and they have), I'm going to welcome them and teach them the rules of the field (which includes the AMA safety code and how to react when full scale flys by low on their way to the airfield 6 miles down the road, or the police helicopter flies by very low doing speed control on hwy 101).  
It's our only hope: embrace and educate.  The alternative is shun and lose all opportunity to discourage unsafe/irresponsible use.  
If you educate one in responsible use, there's a possibility they will spread that knowledge to others in the community of multi rotor pilots.  
Peter+
Sent from Outlook Mobile

On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 10:05 AM -0800, "Ed Alt via NSRCA-discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:

Dave:

Yeah, I know that idiots are the problem.  Until we figure out how to fix stupid, we should separate ourselves from the stuff that those idiots are drawn to. There's no particular reason for some clown from the non-modeling public to come to an AMA flying field.  Nothing much to video, right?  We'll never, ever attract them to the AMA in any kind of meaningful numbers and actually, God help us if we did.  Good flying fields are hard enough to come by.  Do you really want to be competing for air time against dozens of bozos who might show up just to fly a multi-rotor?  No thanks.
Ed
From: burtona at atmc.net
To: ed_alt at hotmail.com; nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Subject: RE: [NSRCA-discussion] Update - UAS Registration Frequently Asked Questions | AMA Government Relations Blog
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 12:48:12 -0500

Multi rotors are not the problem. Idiots are the problem. We have a few idiots flying every type of model. I've seen an idiot chasing after a small full scale trying to get close. That was with some kind of sport airplane.  Would you keep a guy away from an AMA field if he brought out a Giant scale, a pattern plane, and a multi rotor to fly all of them. I'm of the opinion I'd rather have multi rotors at an AMA field environment rather than a mall parking lot or somewhere else just a stupid.

Dave

From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Ed Alt via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2016 11:31 AM
To: John Gayer; Larry Diamond; NSRCA List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Update - UAS Registration Frequently Asked Questions | AMA Government Relations Blog

This is why it's a mistake to continue to allow multi-rotor (actual) drones at any AMA flying field.  It doesn't matter that most AMA members are very responsible.  It takes perhaps only one full scale incident and we could be done.  I think that if you've got them, take them somewhere else.  

Ed

To: ldiamond at diamondrc.com; nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 09:19:42 -0700
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Update - UAS Registration Frequently Asked Questions | AMA Government Relations Blog
From: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org

The only time there will be a problem is with full-scale incidents. You then have a pilot saying he was at 600 feet and this "drone" shot past him vertically and it looked like the "drone" was trying to hit him. Then the only issue is who was flying the model. That is relatively simple at an AMA field given a description of the model.

A few incidents like that and we will have a hard 400 foot limit (or lower).

John

On 1/16/2016 3:25 AM, Larry Diamond via NSRCA-discussion wrote:

The 400’ foot discussion has been interesting to follow.

Think about how they would enforce this if it were regulation and you were at a flying site.

1)      If they show up to the flying site, they would be conspicuous with equipment trying to document the fact you are above 400’. They must have physical evidence for it to stand up in court if the citation is issued. You simply bring your plan down to 400’ or don’t fly.

2)      If they were off site, it is no different than issuing speeding tickets. They must have evidence the plane they document belongs to you and they must be able to demonstrate a violation occurred and the history to show it is you without question. This will not be enforceable if they can’t testify you were physically flying the drone over 400’.

a.       Example: An enforcement officer locks there radar on you for speeding. The officer is charged with the responsibility of maintaining a visual on you (history) or have video to show your vehicle was the one speeding. If it is only a video correlation, they must be able to demonstrate (testify) it was you driving and not somebody else, typically pulling you over within a couple of minutes. If this can’t be demonstrated (testified) to the level of beyond reasonable doubt, the charge/citation will not stick and it will be dismissed.

Were the 400’ policy does get enforced with certainty will be a post mortem event. i.e. midair collision… Outside of this type of event, it will be very difficult to police and enforce.

It is one thing to have a policy out there. It is much different when the policy is executed and then tested in the court system.

Over simplified but the point is clear for me.

As my favorite comedian always says, “It is only my opinion, I could be wrong”.

Larry

From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dana Beaton via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2016 9:48 PM
To: Peter Vogel <vogel.peter at gmail.com>
Cc: John Pavlick <jpavlick26 at att.net>; General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Update - UAS Registration Frequently Asked Questions | AMA Government Relations Blog

I hear you but every time the 400' thing comes up again it's in the wrong direction and the reassurances carry no weight whatsoever in light of what has been published for us to observe to date.  The distinctions will be costly for any one individual to make if unlucky to find oneself in a process.  While our risk may be low flying at our club fields, times have definitely changed...

The ERAU UAS course is also a real eye-opener in many respects.  I think it is still open if anyone is interested.  

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 15, 2016, at 9:27 PM, Peter Vogel <vogel.peter at gmail.com> wrote:

6.e uses the word "should", not "must" and that's a very important legal distinction, making that a guideline, not a requirement.  Further, as they said on Sunday, they are aware they got that wrong and are working with the AMA to fix it.

Peter+

On Fri, Jan 15, 2016 at 7:10 PM, Dana Beaton via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:

6.e is a real eye-opener, and a lot less ambiguous than 91-57 was in its original form. Will be interesting to see what AMA gas to say about it.  Thanks for the link!

Sent from my iPad

On Jan 15, 2016, at 7:59 PM, Mking via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:

Has anyone from the AMA commented on the new FAA Advisory Circular 91-57A Change 1?

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_91-57A_Ch_1.pdf

Marty King

A&P/IA

mking at kingaeroaviation.com

King Aero Aviation, Inc.

574-304-5781

Shop:

24751 US 6

Nappanee, Indiana 46550

Office:

56632 Boss Blvd

Elkhart, Indiana 46516

www.kingaeroaviation.com

On Jan 15, 2016, at 8:32 PM, John Pavlick via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:

And to that end I PROMISE not to shoot anyone unless they actually break into my house. Now is it OK if I buy some 30 round mag’s for my AR-15? LOL

John Pavlick

Cell: 203-417-4971

<image001.png>

Integrated Development Services

From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Ed Alt via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2016 7:09 PM
To: Dave Lockhart
Cc: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Update - UAS Registration Frequently Asked Questions | AMA Government Relations Blog

But Dave, did you like your doctor?  The promise was "if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor".

On Jan 15, 2016, at 7:06 PM, Dave Lockhart <davel322 at comcast.net> wrote:

I have lots of video promising I can keep my doctor……

From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Ed Alt via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2016 6:42 PM
To: Peter Vogel <vogel.peter at gmail.com>; John Gayer <jgghome at comcast.net>; NSRCA List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Update - UAS Registration Frequently Asked Questions | AMA Government Relations Blog

Anyone get that on video?  It's just hearsay until they put it into their regulations.  Meanwhile, we're signing up to a promise not to exceed 400'.  It would be nice to have that video for the trial.  lol

Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2016 15:39:07 -0800
To: jgghome at comcast.net; nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Update - UAS Registration Frequently Asked Questions | AMA Government Relations Blog
From: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org

Yep.  This was brought up directly with the FAA guy at the AMA Expo, he indicated that they got the 400' thing wrong and will be working to clarify their guidance.  The guidance on the web site right now is for people not flying under an approved set of rules from a community based organization like the AMA.

Peter+

On Fri, Jan 15, 2016 at 3:32 PM, John Gayer via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:

This is what the AMA says about the 400 foot barrier on the FAQs page:

Q: Am I permitted to fly above 400 feet? What if I had to check a box saying otherwise on the federal registration website?

A: Yes. AMA members who abide by the AMA Safety Code, which permits flights above 400 feet under appropriate circumstances, and are protected by the Special Rule for Model Aircraft under the 2012 FAA Modernization and Reform Act. Checking the box on the federal registration webpage signifies an understanding of the 400 foot guideline. This is an important safety principle that all UAS operators need to be aware of, and is the same guideline established in AC 91-57 published in 1981. However, the placement of this guideline on the FAA website is intended as an educational piece and more specifically intended for those operating outside of AMA’s safey program.  We have been in discussions with the FAA about this point and the agency has indicted that it will be updating its website in the next week to make clear that this altitude guideline is not intended to supplant the guidance and safety procedures established in AMA’s safety program.

Sounds clear, right? No 400 foot barrier need apply.
However, the following is what you have to "read, understand and follow", according to the FAA.Acknowledgement of Safety GuidanceI will fly below 400 feetI will fly within visual line of sightI will be aware of FAA airspace requirements: www.faa.gov/go/uastfrI will not fly directly over peopleI will not fly over stadiums and sports eventsI will not fly near emergency response efforts such as firesI will not fly near aircraft, especially near airportsI will not fly under the influence

Learn More

[ ] I have read, understand and intend to follow the safety guidance.

Under the "learn more" link, we find the following:

Model Aircraft Operations Limits

According to the FAA Modernization and Reform Act of 2012 as (1) the aircraft is flown strictly for hobby or recreational use; (2) the aircraft is operated in accordance with a community-based set of safety guidelines and within the programming of a nationwide community-based organization; (3) the aircraft is limited to not more than 55 pounds unless otherwise certified through a design, construction, inspection, flight test, and operational safety program administered by a community-based organization; (4) the aircraft is operated in a manner that does not interfere with and gives way to any manned aircraft; (5) when flown within 5 miles of an airport, the operator of the aircraft provides the airport operator and the airport air traffic control tower…with prior notice of the operation; and (6) the aircraft is flown within visual line sight of the operator.More information about safety and training guidelinesVisit knowbeforeyoufly.org

This implies that the 400 foot barrier is not a limit for model aircraft and also refers you back to the AMA FAQs above.  Since the "learn more" link eventually refers you back to the AMA position on 400 feet under the "more info about safety"  link, it very fuzzily appears to be supporting the position that we can still fly pattern without lying to the FAA even though we appear to be agreeing to such a limit in the "Acknowledgement".

Guess I'll register.

On 1/15/2016 3:56 PM, Patternpilot One via NSRCA-discussion wrote:

Here is what I got from Mark Radcliff just after  midnight Monday morning.

He was at the Expo.  It has been posted all over Facebook.

http://amablog.modelaircraft.org/amagov/2016/01/11/update-uas-registration-frequently-asked-questions/ 

Sa.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone

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Santa Clara County Model Aircraft Skypark

Associate Vice President, Academy of Model Aeronautics District X

Treasurer, National Society of Radio Control Aerobatics (NSRCA)

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