[NSRCA-discussion] FAI 1/2 points

Mon Aug 1 16:39:13 AKDT 2016

I for one will be returning to whole point judging.
Jim

From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Harris via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Monday, August 01, 2016 5:27 PM
To: Stuart Chale; General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FAI 1/2 points

The question is not "do we round up or down". The question is "do we round up each maneuver up": or do we "round up the final score". 

In D8 we have been rounding up each maneuver as we interpreted the rule. I think FAI looked at half points to help separate the scores of the top level pilots at major competitions.The problem is, with rounding up of each" maneuver, it is accomplishing the opposite. What we are seeing in D8 are scores that are being compressed to the high side...sometimes to the absurd. 

Let's look at the numbers. AJ at the Worlds fly's an absolutely perfect manuaver that scores a 10. CPLR fly's the very same maneuver with a very minor error and receives 9 1/2 from the judges that now becomes a 10. In the past, CPLR would have received a 9.  

Let's now assume AJ fly's the next maneuver again with a perfect 10. CPLR fly's it with two very small errors and receives a 9. In the past, that 9 would have been an 8. 

Granted, I still think the best flights are still winning, but it could create an issue. 

On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 5:08 PM, Stuart Chale via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
Even if the interpretation is wrong and an 8.5 should be rounded down to an 8 instead of rounded up to a 9 is that any better? 
The better flyer getting all 8.5's gets the same score as the flyer with all 8's, and loses if one maneuver is a 9 instead of an 8.
Stuart

On 8/1/2016 4:56 PM, Peter Vogel via NSRCA-discussion wrote:
I still question the interpretation of the rules here.  This is from the FAI sporting code: 

Each judge gives a mark for each manoeuvre during a flight. Assuming the highest mark 10 at the start of each manoeuvre, every defect is subject to downgrade of the mark in whole numbers (or in half numbers for slight defects, but in sum resulting in up-rounded whole numbers). A high score should remain only if no substantial, severe or multiple defects are found.

The original methodology I had implemented in the electronic scribe resulted in a cumulative downgrade of 1.5 points being up-rounded to 2 points of DEFECT, resulting in a final score of 8, effectively rounding the final score DOWN.  We asked for a clarification from Michael Ramel but I'm not sure he understood the clarification we were asking for!  The current implementation in both MasterScoring and the electronic scribe is that 1.5 is deducted from the final score (8.5) which is then up-rounded to 9.  What I do not like about that is it means that a maneuver with a total of one minor defect (for a 0.5 deduction) gets a perfect 10 instead of an imperfect 9.

Peter+

On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 1:31 PM, John Pavlick via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
"No particular reason was given for the rounding up... They preferred it versus rounding down."

Well that sounds like a scientific explanation. Since it makes no reference to how floating point numbers and quantization errors actually work, we’ll have to accept it as fact. J

John Pavlick
Cell: 203-417-4971

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Integrated Development Services

From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Scott Smith via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Monday, August 01, 2016 3:43 PM
To: Stuart Chale; General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FAI 1/2 points

I asked that same question and was told:

"No particular reason was given for the rounding up... They preferred it versus rounding down."

On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 3:18 PM, Stuart Chale via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> wrote:
Some ideas and changes are just plain stupid!  There I said it :)

I have always hated the fact that some judging criteria and downgrades
were different in FAI and AMA.  Makes judging which is a tough job to do
right even tougher.  You have to know 2 different sets of rules and in
the long run only lowers the accuracy of judging, most likely more so
for the FAI fliers.  But that is another can of worms.

I thought that allowing 1/2 points in FAI sounded like a good idea, we
are used to it in the rest of the classes.  And since the FAI pilots are
in most part the better fliers they are more likely to make the 1/2
point errors as compared to the greater inaccuracies usually seen in the
lower classes.

But wait an 8.5 becomes a 9, and a 9 is still a 9  ??????

So just to prove how silly this idea can be I used Scott's scoring
program and ran a fictitious contest with 2 flyers and 2 rounds.  I used
a couple of friends as contestants so to not offend anyone.  I also had
to use the masters sequence as an example, as the program automatically
rounds up FAI scores.

Hopefully the PDF files are attached.

Each flyer received identical scores in each of their 2 flights. AR
received all 7.5's except one maneuver which was an 8.5,  and DL all 8's
.  In round 1 scores were not rounded up and in round 2 the scores were
rounded up as they would automatically be done in FAI.

Look at the files for AR round 1 and DL  round 1.  It would seem pretty
obvious who should win that round and without rounding up AR gets a
947.75 to DL's 1000.

Note that every maneuver but one was judged higher for DL.

Now look at AR round 2 and DL round 2 rounded up.  The same exact judges
scores with only 1 maneuver scored higher for AR, but due to the
rounding up AR wins the round 1000 to 989.86.

Now this is the extreme and unlikely to actually happen in a contest to
this extent but just the fact that it works this way makes the whole
idea of rounding up ridiculous.

Is there really an argument that this is a good thing?

Stuart C.

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