[NSRCA-discussion] Arming device

Mon May 18 09:45:58 AKDT 2015

John….thanks for reinforcing my point.

David Harmon

Sperry, OK

From: John Gayer [mailto:jgghome at comcast.net] 
Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2015 10:58 PM
To: David Harmon; General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Arming device

Turning off the transmitter before disarming/disconnecting the motor batteries is usually the result of a brain fart, not lack of knowledge about the order of turning equipment on and off. The only cure is to properly set up the failsafe.

John

On 5/17/2015 1:11 PM, David Harmon via NSRCA-discussion wrote:

Nice sequence of events there John.

The whole thing could have been prevented if the pilot had been paying attention to his radio setup and if contest management had checked each airplane’s throttle setup before the first round.

Yeah, yeah…..he should have pulled the arming plug before he shut off the transmitter.

Doesn’t everyone know that the transmitter is the first thing to turn on and the last thing to turn off?

Or do they??

Apparently not!

Someone said that there is a surprising number of pilots that do not understand or are unaware of detailed radio setup.

Most will not read the manual…..some excuse here though as radio manuals leave a lot to be desired.

In the past couple of years I have personally witnessed a couple of really stupid and inept setups by names that would amaze you all.

David Harmon

Sperry, OK

From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of John Fuqua via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2015 1:57 PM
To: 'General pattern discussion'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Arming device

I just gotta respond to this “non-existent” problem.   I was the recipient of a non-existent problem when a buddy’s plane plowed through my plane I the pits.    A young man in the pits started to grab the plane and decided, fortunately, not to do so.     What caused this?     There was 3 specific issues.    A - The fail safe was not set properly and the Tx was turned off causing the motor to rev up.   B -  There was no external arming plug to pull immediately after the plane landed thereby disconnecting the power source and preventing A; and C, we as a group, did not ensure positive control of the airplane from the runway to the pit area.     All things that our pattern group enforces now.

The expectation is that we can come up with a solution that does not drive a specific hardware solution BUT will prevent  things like described above.

John

From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Whodaddy Whodaddy via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2015 1:14 PM
To: Vicente Bortone; General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Arming device

Im about halfway out of pattern as it stands now.. Over intergrated rolling maneuvers in masters .. Different debate all together though .... But it stands next to this issue .. Apparently   We cant jus go fly our airplanes we ( pattern community ) have to medfle and improve on things until

We have to invent and drive a non existent problem to the for front and cure an issue that doesn't exist ... 

Jesus christ!!!!!! 

Gary

Sent from my iPhone

On May 17, 2015, at 12:47 PM, Vicente Bortone via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> > wrote:

I know a good friend local that got very bad cuts in his legs by leaving his helicopter armed unattended. I forgot now how many stitches but were a lot. We got two now. We don't want more. 

On Sun, May 17, 2015 at 12:42 PM Scott McHarg via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> > wrote:

Rest in peace Roman Pirozek Jr,

On Sunday, May 17, 2015, Keith Hoard via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> > wrote:

Y'all don't hang around helicopter fly-ins much, do ya?

-Keith Hoard
-Sent from my Windows Phone

  _____  

From: Ronald Van Putte via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: ‎5/‎17/‎2015 12:08
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Arming device

Yeah!  Even if we are capable of causing carnage with our unsafe airplane, it’s nobody else’s business.  Don’t mess with my airplane!   

Ron (with tongue in cheek)

On May 17, 2015, at 11:30 AM, Keith Hoard via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> > wrote:

Pattern is turning into a box checking, over-regulated government operation.

-Keith Hoard
-Sent from my Windows Phone

  _____  

From: Vicente Bortone via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: ‎5/‎17/‎2015 9:04
To: David Harmon; General pattern discussion
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion]  Arming device

TAG IN.....

Hi Dave,

I started to do that in my contest in Kansas City last year.  This year in pilot meeting I said. " If you don't do it the first round will be zeroed.  Well I think worked well"

John F.

You just made my day. I do more or less the same you do. I review a lot of projects. Clearly will all here analyzed the system and we know the steps could be used to mitigate a possible situation. That is the end of discussion in cases like this. Just give me a real possibility of tag in and tag out.

Jon,

Good research. Now you have to find what is the code that applies to model airplanes. I knew that there is no one specific code. However existing codes applies for similar systems. If all if them arrives to the same conclusion we will be in better shape if we just follow the intent of all codes you can find. Now try to find the specifics for a system similar to the one we have. I already know the answer so I don't need to ask our friend Google.

TAG OUT 

On Saturday, May 16, 2015, David Harmon via NSRCA-discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> > wrote:

With as much talk that has gone on and on andonandonandonandon about this
arming device......puff..puff....not much percentage.
Especially when it is so easy to check.....
Before the first takeoff of each pilot on the first round....the helper
holds the plane off the ground and the pilot turns off the transmitter.
The judges can verify that the motor does not start.
Easy....no drama.

Oh wait....this was never done with glow....but I HAVE seen several guys
chawed up by a howling YS.
One time a guys airplane chased him in a circle as he was trying to catch
it...he had one leg in front of one wing and for an old guy he moved  pretty
quick.
I can't describe how long I laughed about that incident.

In the end....my opinion is checking the fail-safe function should be a must
at each contest.

David Harmon
Sperry, OK

-----Original Message-----

From: NSRCA-discussion [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On

Behalf Of Ron Van Putte via NSRCA-discussion
Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2015 4:58 PM

To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Arming device

I have seen too many situations where an ID10T error caused serious damage
that would have been precluded by the use of a shorting plug.

What percentage of pilots’ transmitters would fail the fail safe test?
Anybody?

Ron Van Putte

On May 16, 2015, at 4:08 PM, Whodaddy Whodaddy via NSRCA-discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> > wrote:

> Seems like we have to many people with to much time on their hands sitting
around fantasizing about what might happen if .... Really.... if u cant
control the aircraft in all aspects then u prolly shouldn't have one... Let
alone legislate what i need to be doing with mine...
>
>
> Gary
>

> Sent from my iPhone
>

>> On May 16, 2015, at 3:58 PM, Jon Lowe via NSRCA-discussion

<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> > wrote:
>>
>> Code doesn't apply to model airplanes.  Cars do not disconnect the
battery, except on race cars with a disconnect switch in case of a wreck.
Normal road cars do not, and modern cars leave a lot of things connected
when the ignition is off.  A lot of cars have underhood fans that run for
awhile after the car is shut off.
>>
>> If this was a big issue, AMA would address it with all model aircraft,
not just pattern. Electric is common in helis, controline, etc. We are over
killing this something awful.
>>
>> Jon
>>
>>> On May 16, 2015 2:11 PM, Vicente Bortone via NSRCA-discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> > wrote:
>>>
>>> the ignition switch.
>>>
>>>> On Saturday, May 16, 2015, Vicente Bortone <vincebrc at gmail.com <mailto:vincebrc at gmail.com> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Saturday, May 16, 2015, Del R via NSRCA-discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> The nice thing about being brought up around GUNS.. It teaches
>>>>> people to respect it always as though it is loaded and cocked
>>>>> ready to deliver its physical life altering energy!!!.. < tic >
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: David Cook via NSRCA-discussion
>>>>>> To: Jim Woodward ; General pattern discussion
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2015 10:48 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Arming device
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just to open the can of worms from the other end.
>>>>>> Now that I have seen the damage a runaway can do to a pool table even
with an external arming device, I have begun to make it a common practice to
remove the prop from the electric planes any time I am not at the field
flying. Store the ammunition and the pin under two different locks. How easy
is it to be careless in the shop or transporting a plane. This thread could
just explode with stories of mishaps we have made or come way too close to.
>>>>>> You just can't be too carful with these things!!!
>>>>>> DC
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 10:21 AM, Jim Woodward via NSRCA-discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> > wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ... Going electric induces a mental physchosis that requires
>>>>>>> everyone else to switch, then go and change the rules for glow
>>>>>>> :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On May 16, 2015, at 9:38 AM, Keith Hoard via NSRCA-discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think the YS guys should have their caller remove the fuel tank
and glow plug before picking up the plane and exiting the runway  . . .
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From: NSRCA-discussion
>>>>>>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
>>>>>>>> precisionaero via NSRCA-discussion
>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2015 8:38 AM
>>>>>>>> To: General pattern discussion
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Arming device
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think we should reconfigure a YS engine to drive a generator to
supply electricity to the electric motor.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -------- Original message --------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From: Peter Vogel via NSRCA-discussion
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Date:05/16/2015 09:31 (GMT-05:00)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To: General pattern discussion , ronlock at comcast.net <mailto:ronlock at comcast.net> , David
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Arming device
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think we're all in agreement, which is why the rules proposal we
put forth requires a *physical* break in the circuit!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sent from Outlook
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, May 16, 2015 at 6:16 AM -0700, "ronlock--- via
NSRCA-discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm in agreement.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ron Lockhart
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> From: "David via NSRCA-discussion"
>>>>>>>>> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> >
>>>>>>>>> To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> 
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2015 1:14:21 AM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Arming device
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm not trying to bring up a sore subject but this has been
bugging me since it was up a while back. I am the senior electronics
technician in the plasma physics department at the University of Wisconsin.
About a third of what I do is make interlock circuits for the Madison
Symmetric Torus. I know that the best way of keeping things safe is to
remove the potential energy from a circuit to keep bad things from
happening. The problem with depending on a circuit such as the emcotec type
of disconnect or to just relying solely on the radio and ESC to keep things
safe is failure modes. You can plan for all different failure types but to
make it a circuit that isn't a lead brick being added to the plane there are
compromises that have to be made. This leads to designing systems that may
deal with only the most common types of failures. For example most common
diodes and tantalum capacitors usually fail in a shorted mode, but not
always. Many carbon resistors will decrease in résistance just prior to
opening up. You get the idea, there are just so many possibilities and
combinations that in my opinion the only real way to safe a power system is
to disconnect the energy source. Ok, now I feel better that I said
something.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> David
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> 
>>>>>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> 
>>>>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> 
>>>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> 
>>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Vicente "Vince" Bortone
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Vicente "Vince" Bortone
>> _______________________________________________
>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> 
>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
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Scott A. McHarg

VSCL / CANVASS U.A.S. Research Pilot

Texas A&M University

PPL - ASEL

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